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Was I wrong or right?Follow
14 posts
You screwed up. You should have just kicked him the moment he said anything again, not ignored him. I can understand that you wanted to play benevolent ruler, but you really should have just went with iron fist. Unless you know them or they have proved themselves in some otherway, you just have to assume they are a potential idiot.
News Update:
Ok so now he seems to have nothing to do except yell in IF how "NOOB!" and "lOsEr!" I am... and he got on my case for about 30 minutes calling me all sorts of stuff such as :
"U be luser! hOw u not hav minos helth n mana after drakk!! HAHA loser!! i will tell everbody abt you!! LOSER!!"
Should I report him? Or would that be an overkill after kicking him the way I did?
Ok so now he seems to have nothing to do except yell in IF how "NOOB!" and "lOsEr!" I am... and he got on my case for about 30 minutes calling me all sorts of stuff such as :
"U be luser! hOw u not hav minos helth n mana after drakk!! HAHA loser!! i will tell everbody abt you!! LOSER!!"
Should I report him? Or would that be an overkill after kicking him the way I did?
Reporting him would be a good idea, if only to keep him quiet.
7 posts
Gregory you ask a question if you did right or not. But you always disagreeing with those that said you was in the wrong. Then you rate them done. It sounds like All you wanted to see is everyone saying you was in the right so you might feel better about yourself. If you ask a question like that you going to get replies saying you was right and you was wrong. And I did read you post. I really don’t care if you agree with me or not. But at least be mature in you response. And by the way please tell me what server you on so I will not be in a raid with you.
GregoryTheWatcher wrote:
News Update:
Ok so now he seems to have nothing to do except yell in IF how "NOOB!" and "lOsEr!" I am... and he got on my case for about 30 minutes calling me all sorts of stuff such as :
"U be luser! hOw u not hav minos helth n mana after drakk!! HAHA loser!! i will tell everbody abt you!! LOSER!!"
Should I report him? Or would that be an overkill after kicking him the way I did?
Ok so now he seems to have nothing to do except yell in IF how "NOOB!" and "lOsEr!" I am... and he got on my case for about 30 minutes calling me all sorts of stuff such as :
"U be luser! hOw u not hav minos helth n mana after drakk!! HAHA loser!! i will tell everbody abt you!! LOSER!!"
Should I report him? Or would that be an overkill after kicking him the way I did?
definately report him for this, the GMs will sort it out a whole lot faster than any other method.
oh and as for the method you used in UBRS, very bad, no matter how you justify it kicking someone just before the deathblow of the final boss in an instance is extremely underhanded.
there's a reason the /ignore command exists, advise the ****** that you're going to ignore him if he continues, if he does /ignore, if he continues ******** when you can't 'hear' him the rest of the party will get so tired of him that they'll likely ask you to kick him yourself. when you leave the instance report him for abusive attitude.
It sounds strange to me that he went into another name-calling fit while you were fighting the final boss, seems like that would be when evryone would be focussing on doing thier jobs to the fullest.
I would be mad, and kicked him earlier. If he did not start it again until durring the final fight, I dont think that I would have kicked him right before the end mob dies... that just seems wrong, and I know that the other players would probably not respect me, or at least my action then...
They were already seeing his behaviour, and probably felt that he was being an ***** They also however after al that work just wanted to finish, (I hate being 5/6 way through then the PUG starts bickering or whatever.. makes me feel like I have wasted the last 1 1/2 hours), But as soon as the fight/looting was over, I would have said that I was reporting him, then put him on ignore, kicked him, then told everyone left I appreciated thier efforst and teamwork, and bid them all a good afternoon.
I dont like to arm chair quarter back, but I would have handled it differently. Kicked before, or after. But not durring, especially as "punishment".
I understand why you did it, but that does not mean that I would have done it.... just my
.
I would be mad, and kicked him earlier. If he did not start it again until durring the final fight, I dont think that I would have kicked him right before the end mob dies... that just seems wrong, and I know that the other players would probably not respect me, or at least my action then...
They were already seeing his behaviour, and probably felt that he was being an ***** They also however after al that work just wanted to finish, (I hate being 5/6 way through then the PUG starts bickering or whatever.. makes me feel like I have wasted the last 1 1/2 hours), But as soon as the fight/looting was over, I would have said that I was reporting him, then put him on ignore, kicked him, then told everyone left I appreciated thier efforst and teamwork, and bid them all a good afternoon.
I dont like to arm chair quarter back, but I would have handled it differently. Kicked before, or after. But not durring, especially as "punishment".
Quote:
Halfway through fight, he was still going on with (Noob! FU/CKING idiot ...etc) , so I just decide to inflict some pain on him, and i kick him out just before killing Drakk.
I understand why you did it, but that does not mean that I would have done it.... just my
.1 post
sorry m8, but i think u r wrong...
since u were expecting to speak with your fiance, you shouldnt arrange a raid in UBRS. If i was in that raid, i would insult you, cause I think you insult us by going AFK for so much time in UBRS. Even if it was a raid to BRD or ST or anywhere, u were the leader, and left to go AFK. NO WAY my friend, no way.
Of course this pali, was wrong calling you all these bad words, but your move to go afk was terrible. Sorry m8, that is how i feel, and I am not another 13years old kid like you call most that dissagree with you. Unfortunatelly I have triple that kid's age (almost) :D
Anyway, if I were you, I would leave the raid, as soon as my wife, would have signed on Yahoo, OR I wold NOT arrange for it in the first place.
So, i guess u were both wrong : you first and this pali second!!!
Have fun in the amazing WoW
since u were expecting to speak with your fiance, you shouldnt arrange a raid in UBRS. If i was in that raid, i would insult you, cause I think you insult us by going AFK for so much time in UBRS. Even if it was a raid to BRD or ST or anywhere, u were the leader, and left to go AFK. NO WAY my friend, no way.
Of course this pali, was wrong calling you all these bad words, but your move to go afk was terrible. Sorry m8, that is how i feel, and I am not another 13years old kid like you call most that dissagree with you. Unfortunatelly I have triple that kid's age (almost) :D
Anyway, if I were you, I would leave the raid, as soon as my wife, would have signed on Yahoo, OR I wold NOT arrange for it in the first place.
So, i guess u were both wrong : you first and this pali second!!!
Have fun in the amazing WoW
He was an ***, but in WoW it pays of to be the mature and patient one. Just kill the boss and report him to a GM after.
Ofcourse i would not be reporting you if he was behaving like that, but im not the whole community ;)
Ofcourse i would not be reporting you if he was behaving like that, but im not the whole community ;)
Either kick him immediately when the abuse started (followed up by a verbal abuse report if he then harasses you in /w or such) or finish the instance with him in the group and again report any unacceptable behaviour if needed after you finish. Kicking somebody mid-fight on the last boss is not a good approach, even though you had warned him it's bound to be mis-interpreted.
Judging by the sequence of events the guy was probably talking about you in whispers, in his own guild chat etc between the initial exchange and his final outburst. At some point he decided to act much like a forum troll and provoke you into ill-considered action.
Wouldn't worry too much about it though - anybody can have a bad day, especially if provoked, and if you are an otherwise good and friendly player then this will just be a minor footnote in an otherwise succesful raiding career.
Judging by the sequence of events the guy was probably talking about you in whispers, in his own guild chat etc between the initial exchange and his final outburst. At some point he decided to act much like a forum troll and provoke you into ill-considered action.
Wouldn't worry too much about it though - anybody can have a bad day, especially if provoked, and if you are an otherwise good and friendly player then this will just be a minor footnote in an otherwise succesful raiding career.
his response to you was completely un-necessary but.....
There are still a fair amount of pulls to go from the beast to drak. Which are more difficult then the ones earlier in the instance. I wouldn't of acted the way he did, but you can be sure I would have let you know how I felt about someone being afk for 1/4 of the instance.
If someone has to afk for bio break or a quick phone call I understand. But, if you plan to be afk for a longer period of time suck it up and tell the group you have to leave because you have an important phone call from your fiance. Since, they didnt have any problems clearing with you afk it would have gone fine and the whole fight never would have happened.
The guy shouldn't of acted the way he did, but I understand where he came from because I would have been angry also.
Quote:
Towards the end, after clearing the beast, my fiancee signs on Yahoo, and i switch to windowed mode, to chat with her, discussing the tickets and accomodation for when she comes next week. I tell the raid that I'll be AFK till Drakk, and that they can go ahead and clear the bridge/hall ...etc.
There are still a fair amount of pulls to go from the beast to drak. Which are more difficult then the ones earlier in the instance. I wouldn't of acted the way he did, but you can be sure I would have let you know how I felt about someone being afk for 1/4 of the instance.
If someone has to afk for bio break or a quick phone call I understand. But, if you plan to be afk for a longer period of time suck it up and tell the group you have to leave because you have an important phone call from your fiance. Since, they didnt have any problems clearing with you afk it would have gone fine and the whole fight never would have happened.
The guy shouldn't of acted the way he did, but I understand where he came from because I would have been angry also.
Thanks.
Latest Developments:
It is the server of Arathor, EU, and I had sent an in-game mail to his Guild Master with a rough outline, and this thread's URL.
He got back to me, apologizing for his member's behaviour, and promising to take care of it. Also he did say that he would have handled it differently, but that he doesn't blame me for my choice.
On a side note, and not to sound paranoid, at the night I first started this thread, I had yelled in IF at 4 am, the URL, becuase much of the raid the previous day had been in IF.
Most of the people in this guy's guild are eastern-european, not exactly the "Allakhazamic" crowd, not the regulars at least. I get into this heated private messaging debate.
And guess what? starting after that, I see at least two people (with pretty bad english) on this thread, who have seemingly made their accounts to reply to me, and who wouldnt concede one inch that he was wrong.
Interesting.
However, the forum's regulars, in whom I trust their unbias, have overwhelmingly supported me.
Anyway, his GM, which of all people, should try to spin it into my fault, has conceded.
And just to reply to a few good points some members have raised here:
1-I didn't expect my fiancee to come online, she just did.
2-I didn't minimise the window, I often judged the monsters on Seal of Light, and hit a few hits, not full participation though.
3-I truly wanted to boot him as soon as he started, but the equation for me (and I might have been wrong) was :
a-kicking him before the fight= less annoying for him, but MT and main healer leaving the raid, because they didn't want any "commotion" = everybody loses.
b-kicking him during the fight and before the death of drakk= more inconvenience for this rude person, but MT and healer can go if they want (which they didn't, they settled for flaming me), the moster is dead and the loot is to be distibuted = Only HE loses.
I felt that only HE deserved to lose, due to his rudeness, not for it to cause a fall-out just before the last boss.
He would have missed the loot in both cases. More hurtful? Yes. But same practical result? Yes.
Edited, Tue Dec 20 09:13:45 2005 by GregoryTheWatcher
Latest Developments:
It is the server of Arathor, EU, and I had sent an in-game mail to his Guild Master with a rough outline, and this thread's URL.
He got back to me, apologizing for his member's behaviour, and promising to take care of it. Also he did say that he would have handled it differently, but that he doesn't blame me for my choice.
On a side note, and not to sound paranoid, at the night I first started this thread, I had yelled in IF at 4 am, the URL, becuase much of the raid the previous day had been in IF.
Most of the people in this guy's guild are eastern-european, not exactly the "Allakhazamic" crowd, not the regulars at least. I get into this heated private messaging debate.
And guess what? starting after that, I see at least two people (with pretty bad english) on this thread, who have seemingly made their accounts to reply to me, and who wouldnt concede one inch that he was wrong.
Interesting.
However, the forum's regulars, in whom I trust their unbias, have overwhelmingly supported me.
Anyway, his GM, which of all people, should try to spin it into my fault, has conceded.
And just to reply to a few good points some members have raised here:
1-I didn't expect my fiancee to come online, she just did.
2-I didn't minimise the window, I often judged the monsters on Seal of Light, and hit a few hits, not full participation though.
3-I truly wanted to boot him as soon as he started, but the equation for me (and I might have been wrong) was :
a-kicking him before the fight= less annoying for him, but MT and main healer leaving the raid, because they didn't want any "commotion" = everybody loses.
b-kicking him during the fight and before the death of drakk= more inconvenience for this rude person, but MT and healer can go if they want (which they didn't, they settled for flaming me), the moster is dead and the loot is to be distibuted = Only HE loses.
I felt that only HE deserved to lose, due to his rudeness, not for it to cause a fall-out just before the last boss.
He would have missed the loot in both cases. More hurtful? Yes. But same practical result? Yes.
Edited, Tue Dec 20 09:13:45 2005 by GregoryTheWatcher
39 posts
Well in my opinion I think it's around half and half.
You did make a good decision because he was annoying and he got what was coming to him.
You didn't make a good decision by kicking him right before the boss died, also you probably shouldn't have gone onto AIM if you're the raid leader.
You did make a good decision because he was annoying and he got what was coming to him.
You didn't make a good decision by kicking him right before the boss died, also you probably shouldn't have gone onto AIM if you're the raid leader.
I would have kicked him too but I think you were hardly more mature than him. First, name calling. You both did it, how are you better? When he first started it, you should have taken it to /whisper or just kicked him. Open disharmony stresses the raid as a whole, as your team mates expressed. Then, when your raid gave their opinion on it, you automatically assume that they are immature "12 year olds" because they disagree with what you did and used profanity at the same time. Sorry, but I know a lot of 12 year olds who are and were more mature than you.
Scholar
19 posts
Although I do feel that it was pretty bad for that person, but I can't but give you a thumbs up.
First of all, there are far too many rude people in WoW, that rely on raid leaders not doing anything to break the "unspoken" ethical rule in WoW, and laugh at the simple warning handed to them by Blizz, IF the raid leader even bothers to report.
A few people acting as "decisively" as you did, ensure that this guy will think twice before he does something like this again.
Second of all -and this is my opinion- you can't ***** up and be warned, and ***** up again, and then ***** about the "reaction" and "consequences". It would be a nice thing if "every action had a reaction opposite in direction and equal in force" but we're humans, we're rarely this fair.
In conclusion, it's as if this guy (and those who flamed you) feel that "Oh sure I/he screwed up! But you shouldn't have .....", well zip it, if you ***** up and get punished, swallow it. You can't dictate how people should react to your rudeness. Learn your lesson and be polite next time.
Just my two cents.
First of all, there are far too many rude people in WoW, that rely on raid leaders not doing anything to break the "unspoken" ethical rule in WoW, and laugh at the simple warning handed to them by Blizz, IF the raid leader even bothers to report.
A few people acting as "decisively" as you did, ensure that this guy will think twice before he does something like this again.
Second of all -and this is my opinion- you can't ***** up and be warned, and ***** up again, and then ***** about the "reaction" and "consequences". It would be a nice thing if "every action had a reaction opposite in direction and equal in force" but we're humans, we're rarely this fair.
In conclusion, it's as if this guy (and those who flamed you) feel that "Oh sure I/he screwed up! But you shouldn't have .....", well zip it, if you ***** up and get punished, swallow it. You can't dictate how people should react to your rudeness. Learn your lesson and be polite next time.
Just my two cents.
Quote:
I would have kicked him too
Pretty much sums up your reply. The objective of this thread was whether I too harsh by kicking in mid-fight.
However:
Quote:
I think you were hardly more mature than him
Hmmm ok, and that's because:
Quote:
First, name calling. You both did it, how are you better?
I called him an idiot once, after trying to explain myself, and giving him the benfit of the doubt. He on the other hand, wouldn't listen, or argue my motives. Oh and he used profanity over and over and over again. I'm not going to argue semantics here.
Quote:
When he first started it, you should have taken it to /whisper or just kicked him
Already replied to that. If I had kicked him before the boss the raid would have dissolved, and I felt that only he deserved to lose.
I did take it to whisper the first time he called me a ***/****hole/fuc*cking loser. He never replied, it seemed that he was more interested in making his feelings public.
Quote:
Then, when your raid gave their opinion on it, you automatically assume that they are immature "12 year olds"
I didn't assume that my raid were immature 12" year olds. Rather I asked the rhetorical question of "is it possible that they were immature because they wouldnt see how serious the word F*UCK is?"
Also not all of the raid had blamed me, 3 were most outspoken against me, (and these, I know for a fact that they were 14/16/13 respectively) the rest had either left or tried to calm things down, some were not in favour of me, but only 3 had been profane about it.
Quote:
Sorry, but I know a lot of 12 year olds who are and were more mature than you
Err.... Likewise I suppose.
P.S: Whats with the rate-down galore? I've spent 6 months in the Asylum expressing the most diverse political/religious views and didn't get it like this. Anyhow, carry on, from looking at the patterns, I guess that there are a lot of socks around, and a back-up team as well.
Edited, Tue Dec 20 09:42:49 2005 by GregoryTheWatcher
Scholar
34 posts
Hmmm.
I guess I am just confused as to why you expected decent behavior from someone who was begging to get in in the first place. PUGing always has its ups and downs. The arrival of your fiance on Yahoo at that point in the raid was poor timing, however, as you put her on hold once the group made it to Drak anyway, couldn't you have just given everyone a take ten before hand for a bio/drink/smoke etc. break, a chance to fuel up and strategize for the next few rooms? Then you could have spoken with her as quickly as possible or asked her to wait for about half an hour so that she could have your full attention.
If you are in the Leader position of a PUG, you need to lead it. I have been in guild raids in that instance where we wiped crossing the bridge due to one Aggroed Pat or some such nonsense. You can't expect a group that doesn't know each other to simply go ahead and wipe a few rooms for you, even with minor support. Leaders LEAD the group. That is why they have the ability to master loot and boot people. Whether I want to or not, I listen to what my group leaders asks me to do, consequently the outcome of the raid is in their hands.
As for his behavior in cursing you out, that is something which would not be tolerated by any of the groups I have been in. I suppose I actually would have threatened to quit the group had he continued with this behavior, the fact that others wanted to quit if you booted him again displays one of the faults in a PUG. Perhaps the next time you decide to lead a PUG, before you even get to the instance, all rules should be laid out before hand.
Were you wrong or not? Well, I think the whole thing was poorly put together from the start. You state that you didn't realize how many "12 year olds" were in the group, so you didn't know many of the people you were with. They were more loyal to him than to you, which indicates that they were not impressed with your leadership enough to find his cursing of you to be over the top. I wouldn't have tolrated the behavior of either of you. Should my group leader in the middle of a Raid decide to go AFK until the Boss, I would have something to say about it. I wouldn't curse you out, but I certainly wouldn't agree to go ahead and clear things out for you to follow behind and loot your share of as you delivered minor support here and there, rather I would have found it a quite opportune time to take a bio break, mana/health up, get a full Raid Party Rebuff and discuss strategy for the upcoming mobs and Drak (I realize I already mentioned this before.) I also would have rebuked the Paladin who began cussing at you for poor manners and a lack of discipline.
Life happens, but your group should not be made to suffer for it when it's happening to you. If you were dealing with "a bunch of 12 year olds" then they are not going to recognize the importance of your discussion with your lady and if they are that well respected within their guilds, perhaps you shouldn't care to group with their guild members anyway. I seriously doubt any adult would blacklist you for this, question you about the incident perhaps, but that should be about it.
Beware the Evilness of PUGs!!!!
I guess I am just confused as to why you expected decent behavior from someone who was begging to get in in the first place. PUGing always has its ups and downs. The arrival of your fiance on Yahoo at that point in the raid was poor timing, however, as you put her on hold once the group made it to Drak anyway, couldn't you have just given everyone a take ten before hand for a bio/drink/smoke etc. break, a chance to fuel up and strategize for the next few rooms? Then you could have spoken with her as quickly as possible or asked her to wait for about half an hour so that she could have your full attention.
If you are in the Leader position of a PUG, you need to lead it. I have been in guild raids in that instance where we wiped crossing the bridge due to one Aggroed Pat or some such nonsense. You can't expect a group that doesn't know each other to simply go ahead and wipe a few rooms for you, even with minor support. Leaders LEAD the group. That is why they have the ability to master loot and boot people. Whether I want to or not, I listen to what my group leaders asks me to do, consequently the outcome of the raid is in their hands.
As for his behavior in cursing you out, that is something which would not be tolerated by any of the groups I have been in. I suppose I actually would have threatened to quit the group had he continued with this behavior, the fact that others wanted to quit if you booted him again displays one of the faults in a PUG. Perhaps the next time you decide to lead a PUG, before you even get to the instance, all rules should be laid out before hand.
Were you wrong or not? Well, I think the whole thing was poorly put together from the start. You state that you didn't realize how many "12 year olds" were in the group, so you didn't know many of the people you were with. They were more loyal to him than to you, which indicates that they were not impressed with your leadership enough to find his cursing of you to be over the top. I wouldn't have tolrated the behavior of either of you. Should my group leader in the middle of a Raid decide to go AFK until the Boss, I would have something to say about it. I wouldn't curse you out, but I certainly wouldn't agree to go ahead and clear things out for you to follow behind and loot your share of as you delivered minor support here and there, rather I would have found it a quite opportune time to take a bio break, mana/health up, get a full Raid Party Rebuff and discuss strategy for the upcoming mobs and Drak (I realize I already mentioned this before.) I also would have rebuked the Paladin who began cussing at you for poor manners and a lack of discipline.
Life happens, but your group should not be made to suffer for it when it's happening to you. If you were dealing with "a bunch of 12 year olds" then they are not going to recognize the importance of your discussion with your lady and if they are that well respected within their guilds, perhaps you shouldn't care to group with their guild members anyway. I seriously doubt any adult would blacklist you for this, question you about the incident perhaps, but that should be about it.
Beware the Evilness of PUGs!!!!
I have read this post a few times, and feel it's an interesting debate. I have neither rated anyone up or down, but to the OP: you should know as well as anyone by now with your postcount that any post can be rated, and arguing about your ratings and putting on an air of martyrdom just tends to **** the trolls off. Your last couple of posts have had that feel- like anyone that posted in agreement with you are the "good" members, and anyone that disagreed with you are "trolls" or "sympathisers" in collusion with the person you had the agreement over. Keeping on in such a vein may lead to more trolling. Again, not from me- I'm voicing what I have seen in countless threads.
Now, on to my opinions...
First of all, from what I have read, almost all of the responses have agreed that the other person was an asshat. I also feel that anyone behaving in such a manner, in any group, deserves a good kick / ignore list / report to GM. However, you leave out a few points:
1) When you started the instance, did you warn people that you might need to go AFK for an extended time? If you knew of the possibility of your fiancee popping up, even if not a definite engagement, you should have forewarned them. If not, then it stands to reason you could have turned off any instant messengers during the raid- you could always reopen it afterwards.
2) Did you request to go afk from the raid, or did you tell them to go on while you were afk? He may have been reacting in that manner in response to the way you stated it. Also, did you get the opinions of anyone else? I personally would not accept my raid leader riding my coattails while I and other people cleaned out a path for x minutes if they informed us they would be afk. I'd sit my *** down until they got off afk. If they asked if we minded, I'd probably say I didn't mind, and see how everyone else felt about it.
3) When you say you didn't want to ruin the instance for everyone, whom are you referring to? If you kicked him the first time, you would have been justified. However, having accepted his tirade the first time, and continuing until the second fight, and deciding to kick him the second time doesn't make you appear to be keeping him on for the good of the raid... it makes it appear that you kept him on for more mercenary reasons- that you wanted to complete the raid, whether for the chance at the end drops, or for personal reasons. Eliminating him near the end of battle, in my opinion, makes it look like you probably already decided to kick him after the first argument, but held on to him just to ensure you beat the boss. If you allow someone to contribute to an entire instance, no matter how offensive you found them, it was your decision. By kicking him out at the very end when you are assured of winning, you make yourself look mercenary- no matter how good your intentions were. That would infuriate me, if I were one of the others watching. It also shows how you reward someone that, while verbally abusive, stayed and kept the group together.
4) Finally, if you knew you'd be afk for some time when your s/o came online, why did you not delegate someone else to be leader? Although you say you were watching the screen, I remember when I used to go on MSN with my wife when she was abroad, my eyes glimpsed at the rest of the screen fractionally at best. If you were that concerned for the other members of your raid, you should have delegated responsibility to another who was fully aware of everything going on in the instance, even if not the asshat or one of his sympathisers.
All in all, I think you did what you needed to to get to the end boss. I feel that the person you complained about was a complete jackass, but that you should have kicked him as soon as you had the issue, or put him on ignore, as has been mentioned repeatedly. By keeping him on, you make yourself appear more conniving than benevolent. Perhaps you did do it for the good of the group, but I personally believe you did it for the good of yourself.
Now, on to my opinions...
First of all, from what I have read, almost all of the responses have agreed that the other person was an asshat. I also feel that anyone behaving in such a manner, in any group, deserves a good kick / ignore list / report to GM. However, you leave out a few points:
1) When you started the instance, did you warn people that you might need to go AFK for an extended time? If you knew of the possibility of your fiancee popping up, even if not a definite engagement, you should have forewarned them. If not, then it stands to reason you could have turned off any instant messengers during the raid- you could always reopen it afterwards.
2) Did you request to go afk from the raid, or did you tell them to go on while you were afk? He may have been reacting in that manner in response to the way you stated it. Also, did you get the opinions of anyone else? I personally would not accept my raid leader riding my coattails while I and other people cleaned out a path for x minutes if they informed us they would be afk. I'd sit my *** down until they got off afk. If they asked if we minded, I'd probably say I didn't mind, and see how everyone else felt about it.
3) When you say you didn't want to ruin the instance for everyone, whom are you referring to? If you kicked him the first time, you would have been justified. However, having accepted his tirade the first time, and continuing until the second fight, and deciding to kick him the second time doesn't make you appear to be keeping him on for the good of the raid... it makes it appear that you kept him on for more mercenary reasons- that you wanted to complete the raid, whether for the chance at the end drops, or for personal reasons. Eliminating him near the end of battle, in my opinion, makes it look like you probably already decided to kick him after the first argument, but held on to him just to ensure you beat the boss. If you allow someone to contribute to an entire instance, no matter how offensive you found them, it was your decision. By kicking him out at the very end when you are assured of winning, you make yourself look mercenary- no matter how good your intentions were. That would infuriate me, if I were one of the others watching. It also shows how you reward someone that, while verbally abusive, stayed and kept the group together.
4) Finally, if you knew you'd be afk for some time when your s/o came online, why did you not delegate someone else to be leader? Although you say you were watching the screen, I remember when I used to go on MSN with my wife when she was abroad, my eyes glimpsed at the rest of the screen fractionally at best. If you were that concerned for the other members of your raid, you should have delegated responsibility to another who was fully aware of everything going on in the instance, even if not the asshat or one of his sympathisers.
All in all, I think you did what you needed to to get to the end boss. I feel that the person you complained about was a complete jackass, but that you should have kicked him as soon as you had the issue, or put him on ignore, as has been mentioned repeatedly. By keeping him on, you make yourself appear more conniving than benevolent. Perhaps you did do it for the good of the group, but I personally believe you did it for the good of yourself.
Good points Wondrous.
I didn't expect my fiancee to come on at this time. And by the way I am a doctor, I never turn off my messengers, or my cellphone under any circumstance, just a habit.
Nevertheless, she did come online, and we had some important issues to discuss.
I did say : "AFK for a while guys, ill be on auto-follow behind Majomka, till Drakk" (and btw i came back to the game at least 4 groups of mobs before Drakk, and i went AFK after clearing the Beast, the mobs in that hall, and the mobs on the bridge)
the reply was :
"ok"
"sure"
"yeah ok"
"sure"
no body objected or showed any sign of discomfort.
And a point is in order here, This raid had consisted of 4 warriors (3 of which had MC gear), 2 primary healers, 4 paladins (2 of which were Holy), 2 rogues and 2 locks and a hunter.
None of the people were pre-strath geared and struggling with it, we swept the instance like anything.
So thats why I took AFKing lightly this time, because we were doing great, and my role as a retribution paladin wasn't very needed, and my buff could have been easily replaced by one of the other paladins. We were clearly an overkill for UBRS.
I'm referring to the fact that the Main Tank (best gear), and the main healer (a priest from the tank's guild) threatened to leave. If they had indeed left, if i had kicked the paladin, then the final boss would have became hard, the other healer wasnt as proficient as the one threatening to leave, not to mention the fact that people usually quickly follow suit and leave after 2-3 people leave the raid, regardless of the chances of survival. The paladin himself wasnt needed that much in that context.
I was in it for the epic carapace that drops off Gyth.... it didnt drop, therefore there was nothing left for me in that Raid (not the LF chest either, already have it)... so I did do it for the raid, and for the other paladins and classes hoping for the chest set pieces.
Sure it felt good to get back at him, but the intention wasnt only to "feel good".
It's far simpler in my opinion. A insults B for an action which is allowed in the game, B tells A to calm down, A keeps on insulting B. C, D , F ,G , and X beg B to ignore the guy, he does, but after it is repeated, B boots A, which is his authority and right.
I do agree with you on the rest though.
I didn't expect my fiancee to come on at this time. And by the way I am a doctor, I never turn off my messengers, or my cellphone under any circumstance, just a habit.
Nevertheless, she did come online, and we had some important issues to discuss.
I did say : "AFK for a while guys, ill be on auto-follow behind Majomka, till Drakk" (and btw i came back to the game at least 4 groups of mobs before Drakk, and i went AFK after clearing the Beast, the mobs in that hall, and the mobs on the bridge)
the reply was :
"ok"
"sure"
"yeah ok"
"sure"
no body objected or showed any sign of discomfort.
And a point is in order here, This raid had consisted of 4 warriors (3 of which had MC gear), 2 primary healers, 4 paladins (2 of which were Holy), 2 rogues and 2 locks and a hunter.
None of the people were pre-strath geared and struggling with it, we swept the instance like anything.
So thats why I took AFKing lightly this time, because we were doing great, and my role as a retribution paladin wasn't very needed, and my buff could have been easily replaced by one of the other paladins. We were clearly an overkill for UBRS.
Quote:
3) When you say you didn't want to ruin the instance for everyone, whom are you referring to?
I'm referring to the fact that the Main Tank (best gear), and the main healer (a priest from the tank's guild) threatened to leave. If they had indeed left, if i had kicked the paladin, then the final boss would have became hard, the other healer wasnt as proficient as the one threatening to leave, not to mention the fact that people usually quickly follow suit and leave after 2-3 people leave the raid, regardless of the chances of survival. The paladin himself wasnt needed that much in that context.
Quote:
Perhaps you did do it for the good of the group, but I personally believe you did it for the good of yourself.
I was in it for the epic carapace that drops off Gyth.... it didnt drop, therefore there was nothing left for me in that Raid (not the LF chest either, already have it)... so I did do it for the raid, and for the other paladins and classes hoping for the chest set pieces.
Sure it felt good to get back at him, but the intention wasnt only to "feel good".
It's far simpler in my opinion. A insults B for an action which is allowed in the game, B tells A to calm down, A keeps on insulting B. C, D , F ,G , and X beg B to ignore the guy, he does, but after it is repeated, B boots A, which is his authority and right.
I do agree with you on the rest though.
Why bother asking people if you were right or wrong if you have no intention of accepting any response besides those that validate you?
Take your rate bot and go stroke your ego elsewhere.
Take your rate bot and go stroke your ego elsewhere.
Howdy ya'll,
I wouldn't normally respond to a thread of this sort - already lots of acrimony and name calling - except that you pushed a couple of my personal buttons, rudeness and leadership behavior, and for that you get a dose of my own personal philosophy. And since you, GregoryTheWatcher, asked an opinion on a personal example, some of my comments may seem a bit personal. Please don't take them that way - I wasn't there. These are simply general comments. You were the leader, you made the decisions, you live by the consequences, nothing me nor anyone else says should make you feel one bit better or worse - that's what being a leader is.
Also please bear in mind that this is ONLY a game. Right or wrong, you're obviously taking this pretty hard, you're catching a lot of blame and feeling a lot of anger, justified or otherwise is not my call, but no billion-dollar corporation is collapsing, nobody's life is on the line, and reputations rise and fall with every person you interact with. Appropriate or inappropriate decisions in one instance run should not be keeping you awake nights or raising your blood pressure. Save that for real life.
And now for the armchair quarterbacking -
1) The leader's position should never need to be filled - all groups should always work together perfectly harmoniously, everyone doing what they need to do, with no disagreements or mistakes. And most of the time, in almost all groups, PUG, good friends, or guildies, they do, and you might as well not have a leader at all. But the very few times that leadership is required, IT IS REQUIRED! and there is nothing more important right then than that everyone know who the responsible person is, including the responsible person himself. That means you, in this instance. Yes, the group should have been able to clear the small amount of space before Drak without a leader, but in this case a responsible person was suddenly required and was not there. You let your group down at that moment, without doing anything wrong, simply by not being responsible. If, as a leader, you ever have to go AFK, make sure the group knows who the new leader is. In Warcraft, that means turn over the leadership. Yes, it's very important to work out these arrangements with your fiancee - I've been married for 13 years, I know. Is it more important than being leader for a UBRS run? I would hope so. So pick a good second and make him leader until you can devote full time to your position again. And when you make him leader, make him leader - he will be the one responsible for kicking YOU out of the party if he feels the other paladin was right and you are not pulling your weight. Just because you organized the raid doesn't mean the rest of the group has to let you do whatever you want if they feel it's hurting the group.
2) Consequences, not punishment. This is something every parent has to learn, as well as every teacher, judge, police officer and every other menmber of society, and something which is all too often completely screwed up. Being leader of the group makes it all the more critical that you act in a completely fair manner, meting out appropriate consequences for people's actions with no hint of punishment or revenge. The other paladin was acting like an idiot, doing and saying things that were completely inappropriate, you kick him from the group. If you find the things he says personally objectionable and abusive, you report him to the GM. If you think he should be kicked, you say so to the group, and they respond that they will leave if you do, you accept that as a group decision and either kick him out, accepting the consequences, or leave him in and accept that you CANNOT kick him out. You can, however, inform the rest of the group that you are putting him on /ignore, and if there is anything actually pertinent that he says, someone else will need to relay the message. What you absolutely cannot do as a leader, is wait until the worst possible moment and exercise your authority as a leader to do the most damage possible to him out of revenge. Sure, it may teach him a lesson, but you could have done that by kicking him out the first time. Even if you were totally in the right, the appearance of acting in a petty, revengeful, spiteful manner weighs heavily against you.
To be fair, there is a lot of adolescent behavior in this game, some of it even coming from adolescents. You do not have to take abuse, either as a leader or a player, and it sounds like your particularly problem child was dishing out a healthy dose of it. You were the aggrieved party and had I been present in that party, I have no doubt that I would have cheered your decision to boot him after his first (and repeated!) abusive post. Even if it weakened the group, no one needs to put up with that sort of BS. But to hold your punishment in check, to keep him and therefore his supporters in the group until he was no longer needed, and then cut him out just before the group was rewarded for their work was mean, underhanded, and spiteful. If a consequence is deserved, it should be meted out immediately, not saved until it can be the most destructive. That is no longer a consequence, it is revenge.
Like I said, I wasn't there, and even the people who were there have no idea whether you were acting out of a sense of revenge or simply doing what you thought was right. The question is, what were you thinking when you did this? Only you know whether you were trying to do your best as the leader of the group or whether you gave in to an all-too-human need to get revenge for a slight. And unfortunately, nothing you or anyone else says on this forum will ever make the slightest bit of difference. At this point, if after calm reflection that you acted hastily out of revenge, then your co-belligerent achieves the moral high ground and his abusive behavior becomes justified. If you persist in arguing that kicking someone out in the middle of a boss fight was an appropriate punishment, then very few that have never been in this position will believe you. I wish you the very best of luck, but I'm afraid the only appropriate solution in this case is to simply let it die and take what lessons you can from the conflict.
Good luck, and sorry for the sermon...
Trubble - a lvl 52 paladin that doesn't EVER want to be the leader!
I wouldn't normally respond to a thread of this sort - already lots of acrimony and name calling - except that you pushed a couple of my personal buttons, rudeness and leadership behavior, and for that you get a dose of my own personal philosophy. And since you, GregoryTheWatcher, asked an opinion on a personal example, some of my comments may seem a bit personal. Please don't take them that way - I wasn't there. These are simply general comments. You were the leader, you made the decisions, you live by the consequences, nothing me nor anyone else says should make you feel one bit better or worse - that's what being a leader is.
Also please bear in mind that this is ONLY a game. Right or wrong, you're obviously taking this pretty hard, you're catching a lot of blame and feeling a lot of anger, justified or otherwise is not my call, but no billion-dollar corporation is collapsing, nobody's life is on the line, and reputations rise and fall with every person you interact with. Appropriate or inappropriate decisions in one instance run should not be keeping you awake nights or raising your blood pressure. Save that for real life.
And now for the armchair quarterbacking -
1) The leader's position should never need to be filled - all groups should always work together perfectly harmoniously, everyone doing what they need to do, with no disagreements or mistakes. And most of the time, in almost all groups, PUG, good friends, or guildies, they do, and you might as well not have a leader at all. But the very few times that leadership is required, IT IS REQUIRED! and there is nothing more important right then than that everyone know who the responsible person is, including the responsible person himself. That means you, in this instance. Yes, the group should have been able to clear the small amount of space before Drak without a leader, but in this case a responsible person was suddenly required and was not there. You let your group down at that moment, without doing anything wrong, simply by not being responsible. If, as a leader, you ever have to go AFK, make sure the group knows who the new leader is. In Warcraft, that means turn over the leadership. Yes, it's very important to work out these arrangements with your fiancee - I've been married for 13 years, I know. Is it more important than being leader for a UBRS run? I would hope so. So pick a good second and make him leader until you can devote full time to your position again. And when you make him leader, make him leader - he will be the one responsible for kicking YOU out of the party if he feels the other paladin was right and you are not pulling your weight. Just because you organized the raid doesn't mean the rest of the group has to let you do whatever you want if they feel it's hurting the group.
2) Consequences, not punishment. This is something every parent has to learn, as well as every teacher, judge, police officer and every other menmber of society, and something which is all too often completely screwed up. Being leader of the group makes it all the more critical that you act in a completely fair manner, meting out appropriate consequences for people's actions with no hint of punishment or revenge. The other paladin was acting like an idiot, doing and saying things that were completely inappropriate, you kick him from the group. If you find the things he says personally objectionable and abusive, you report him to the GM. If you think he should be kicked, you say so to the group, and they respond that they will leave if you do, you accept that as a group decision and either kick him out, accepting the consequences, or leave him in and accept that you CANNOT kick him out. You can, however, inform the rest of the group that you are putting him on /ignore, and if there is anything actually pertinent that he says, someone else will need to relay the message. What you absolutely cannot do as a leader, is wait until the worst possible moment and exercise your authority as a leader to do the most damage possible to him out of revenge. Sure, it may teach him a lesson, but you could have done that by kicking him out the first time. Even if you were totally in the right, the appearance of acting in a petty, revengeful, spiteful manner weighs heavily against you.
To be fair, there is a lot of adolescent behavior in this game, some of it even coming from adolescents. You do not have to take abuse, either as a leader or a player, and it sounds like your particularly problem child was dishing out a healthy dose of it. You were the aggrieved party and had I been present in that party, I have no doubt that I would have cheered your decision to boot him after his first (and repeated!) abusive post. Even if it weakened the group, no one needs to put up with that sort of BS. But to hold your punishment in check, to keep him and therefore his supporters in the group until he was no longer needed, and then cut him out just before the group was rewarded for their work was mean, underhanded, and spiteful. If a consequence is deserved, it should be meted out immediately, not saved until it can be the most destructive. That is no longer a consequence, it is revenge.
Like I said, I wasn't there, and even the people who were there have no idea whether you were acting out of a sense of revenge or simply doing what you thought was right. The question is, what were you thinking when you did this? Only you know whether you were trying to do your best as the leader of the group or whether you gave in to an all-too-human need to get revenge for a slight. And unfortunately, nothing you or anyone else says on this forum will ever make the slightest bit of difference. At this point, if after calm reflection that you acted hastily out of revenge, then your co-belligerent achieves the moral high ground and his abusive behavior becomes justified. If you persist in arguing that kicking someone out in the middle of a boss fight was an appropriate punishment, then very few that have never been in this position will believe you. I wish you the very best of luck, but I'm afraid the only appropriate solution in this case is to simply let it die and take what lessons you can from the conflict.
Good luck, and sorry for the sermon...
Trubble - a lvl 52 paladin that doesn't EVER want to be the leader!
12yo's can't help it. Raid leaders can. I cannot believe you actually went AFK from The Beast to The General. Absurd.
Face it, 5 Pallys, 1 Lightforge Chest - you wanted an excuse to increase your odds, AND go on autopilot for a good chunk of the hard stuff. The General fight is easy-mode, clearing his room properly is the trick, and you were absent.
Pathetic. I'd blacklist you and your whole guild so freaking fast. FAR faster then I would the 12yo who called you useless, mainly because he was right. He was expressing it like a 12yo, but he was absolutely right.
"Be quiet, I need to speak to my fiance"??? WTF? You can't deal with a critical raid issue at a crucial moment because your girlfriend is on AIM?
Face it, 5 Pallys, 1 Lightforge Chest - you wanted an excuse to increase your odds, AND go on autopilot for a good chunk of the hard stuff. The General fight is easy-mode, clearing his room properly is the trick, and you were absent.
Pathetic. I'd blacklist you and your whole guild so freaking fast. FAR faster then I would the 12yo who called you useless, mainly because he was right. He was expressing it like a 12yo, but he was absolutely right.
"Be quiet, I need to speak to my fiance"??? WTF? You can't deal with a critical raid issue at a crucial moment because your girlfriend is on AIM?
Here, try this version:
I was in IF and a UBRS group was forming, they already had 4 Paladins, but I really wanted in, so I begged and he finally invited my.
After killing the Beast, the raid leader goes AFK to IM with his girlfriend!!! He did nothing, not even bless from there, to the General's room. We cleared the whole room before Drak with this idiot AFK.
At the General, he comes back (yeah, like we need him at this point), and I tell him what a useless leader he is. Yeah, I used some profanity, but I was hed-hot at the audacity of this guy. He told me to shut up, he was taling to his fiance!
We engage the General, kill the guards, I was still going off on him. Right before the general dies, HE KICKED ME!. omFg!
I was in IF and a UBRS group was forming, they already had 4 Paladins, but I really wanted in, so I begged and he finally invited my.
After killing the Beast, the raid leader goes AFK to IM with his girlfriend!!! He did nothing, not even bless from there, to the General's room. We cleared the whole room before Drak with this idiot AFK.
At the General, he comes back (yeah, like we need him at this point), and I tell him what a useless leader he is. Yeah, I used some profanity, but I was hed-hot at the audacity of this guy. He told me to shut up, he was taling to his fiance!
We engage the General, kill the guards, I was still going off on him. Right before the general dies, HE KICKED ME!. omFg!
Quote:
Halfway through fight, he was still going on...so I just decide to inflict some pain on him...
Suddenly some people in raid go ballistic on me...
...I probably got blacklisted in half the high-end guilds on my server.
Was I right or wrong?
Suddenly some people in raid go ballistic on me...
...I probably got blacklisted in half the high-end guilds on my server.
Was I right or wrong?
You were wrong. Worse, you proved the foul-mouthed paladin right about you.
But that's not really important. What's important is what we all learn from this. To that end, there have been some excellent suggestions (such as giving the leadership role to someone else). It's okay that you didn't think of that at the time - we'll all think of it if we find ourselves in a similar situation.
What I would like to get across is that it simply is not our job to punish others.
right and wrong are value judgements that each person must make for themselves.
Personally I think your a moron for kicking him, and a moron for chatting with your wife instead of pulling your weight in the instance. This should be apparent to anyone with a brain.. especially if it got you blacklisted with a bunch of MC guilds. either you should tell the raid you have to go, or you shouldn't start the conversation with your wife until after the raid, that is your call.
If I was the raid leader and someone in the raid went afk for more than a bio break, I would be kicking your *** out.
maybe you can reverse it all the next time Blizz opens up realm transfer off of your server.
Edited, Tue Dec 20 20:26:08 2005 by Sneakter
Personally I think your a moron for kicking him, and a moron for chatting with your wife instead of pulling your weight in the instance. This should be apparent to anyone with a brain.. especially if it got you blacklisted with a bunch of MC guilds. either you should tell the raid you have to go, or you shouldn't start the conversation with your wife until after the raid, that is your call.
If I was the raid leader and someone in the raid went afk for more than a bio break, I would be kicking your *** out.
maybe you can reverse it all the next time Blizz opens up realm transfer off of your server.
Edited, Tue Dec 20 20:26:08 2005 by Sneakter
ReverendSC nailed it and you. Going AFK for that long in unforgivable. Period.
P.S. IMHO, just publishing this thread and reacting soo poorly to criticisms is a sign of your own doubts and guilt about the situation. I scares me that someone with such a thin skin, and poor judgement is a Doctor.
P.S. IMHO, just publishing this thread and reacting soo poorly to criticisms is a sign of your own doubts and guilt about the situation. I scares me that someone with such a thin skin, and poor judgement is a Doctor.
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