PvP change really good for PvE?

Blizzard recently announced two major, related changes to the pre-80 game. The first is that players will receive experience for battlegrounds, which should put an end to twinks ruining games for characters that are actually leveling. However, to still allow for the possibility of twinks, they will get siphoned off into their own category of battlegrounds if they enable a special "No experience" mode.

That "no experience" mode (NXP) is going to also add a new wrinkle to how players view PvE, I think. In the past, people have asked about servers where they could play just to level 60 and stop...while those people wouldn't be accommodated by the rest of the server population, at least they *CAN* legitimately stop at level 60 and run Molten Core and Zul'Gurub to their hearts' content.

It also adds a level of play for people who are truly completionists by nature. I have often been piqued by the idea of playing a character that does all the starter zones, then all the second tier zones, and so on. The only problem is, after you finish one zone, you've outleveled the others! What fun is it doing Wetlands when you've already done Ashenvale and Duskwood, and are sitting on level 35? You could also see how many or which achievements you can get by a certain level.

Players who are dedicated to playing their **character**, and not just gaming the system to get to the cap, would probably love an opportunity to experience the entire game -- at appropriate levels -- with one character. In addition to that, I have a feeling that many leveling players would jump at the opportunity to earn some extra cash if Blizzard implements a quest experience->gold conversion for NXP players the way they do for level 80. I mean, way back when, how many of us really struggled to get mount money together or to cover some other major expense in the early going?

I would have a lot of fun reliving the early game by playing a character that actually does everything, and does it bit by bit. Other players are going to be happy capping themselves at some point and just playing the game from there, particularly on RP servers. Considering I'm a little jaded by the whole raiding thing these days, I wouldn't mind having an alt whose goal truly is not "get to level 80," because how much fun are most of your alts when you hit the cap? At some point, your alt becomes a liability to your main, or becomes your new main, due to the things you have to do with it to "progress."

Blizzard has attempted to create something for PvP that I think will actually have a tremendous influence on the PvE community. I may be thinking a little too idealistically here, but I'm going to bet that small sects on each server will level-cap themselves and run old content together. Maybe there will be an NXP raid guild on your server. Although I doubt I'd want to do it four nights per week, I might get a thrill out of going back to that one night a week. (And no, I wouldn't want to run Molten Core indefinitely until they shut down the servers. I'd move on eventually...to Blackwing Lair.)

Let's face it: even if you don't consider yourself a likely candidate for NXP'ing one of your characters, now or later, you can probably think of someone who would. Here's to hoping this change makes for an interesting counterculture in the game.

Sadly, I have a feeling Blizzard will probably not incorporate the NXP = gold conversion into the game, which will kill off a considerable amount of support for what could be a really fun change. When it costs 10 gold to activate the mode and 10 gold to deactivate it, not too many players are going to flick it like a light switch every 2 levels, and certainly not for the purpose of completing quests for money. Honestly, I think the gold cost is rather superfluous anyway, because the purpose of the mode is to be able to separate twinks from non-twinks. Isn't it going to be a drop in the bucket of twinking finances if they can pay 10 gold to keep their character as-is? And how many of them are really going to turn it back on? Maybe a 10-gold one-time fee if you're REALLY trying to suck money out of the system, but I think that's still kinda pointless. Get rid of this and give us gold conversion instead.

Blizzard, for the sake of the PvE community, I hope you go through with the changes you propose, but give us exp->gold and remove the NXP fee. I think it will enrich your game considerably. Your old world zones will actually see some life in them, and not just three people passing through. Your old instances will actually get run on occasion. Your old-time PvE'ers who want to relive those days, and your new-timers who want to see what old raids were like, are going to already band together to try the obsoleted raid zones, provided they can actually find enough like-minded people to pull it off. You'll still get your intended effect on the twinks.

You are on the verge of making what is possibly one of the most genius changes to the game, perhaps without even realizing it. Just give it some legs.

Comments

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entry levels
# Jun 19 2009 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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94 posts
The only problem is the entry level for a lot of the instances. A twink may well be capable of doing the PvE in instances tailored to levels above their own, but most often the minimum level is tailored to people who quest in greens, and haven't done an instance before, so twinks wouldn't be allowed in. It isn't even appropriate to people who have been levelling in instances, as you can do almost all the instance content in Azeroth with a party of 3, at the entry level, once you've got gear from doing the first couple.

I've been druid healer for a party of 3, and once we'd got gear from DM and WC to get us started (DM at 16 instead of the entry level, because unenchanted greens and the available abilities at 14 couldn't cut it on bosses), everything else was pretty easy to do, including BFD at 18, up to a full clear of Uldaman at 33, where I was thoroughly drunk, and spent the 1st third mostly in cat form, the 2nd third healing naked, and the last third playing freecell on my other monitor, right up until half way through the last boss. In fact we gave up our Sunday runs through instances, because they were just so easy it was getting boring (besides my antics the tank would get up and make tea after starting some pulls, relying on auto attack, and the fact we all had Omen to keep aggro).

End-game raiding experience makes the early content a joke already, and coupled with the gear you'd have on a twink, the current minimum level requirements for the instances are several levels too high.
I think this is a plus all around
# Jun 19 2009 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
PvE folks can participate in battlegrounds without getting totally nuked.

PvP bracket folks can do their thing without a bunch of PvE scrubs getting in their way.

PvE folks can stick at a level for older content for a while on their alts if they wish.

The PvP Bracket crowd can do things like raid older content and not have to worry about accidental level gains ... they can even dual spec, and have their bracket fight toons self-twink ... Imagine a 59 lvl bracket guild raiding Kara ... now they can do it for s**ts and grins, or profit.

The only losers here are the scrub-hunting gank freaks ... they will just have to migrate to PvP servers, I guess.


Edited, Jun 19th 2009 3:52pm by tessae

Edited, Jun 19th 2009 3:52pm by tessae
atm, I like it.
# Jun 19 2009 at 8:13 AM Rating: Default
I have wanted a level 60 warrior for ages(I miss my valor and arcanite ripper), but never wanted to transfer him to a vanilla account. Now I have the perfect opportunity.

Sounds like a great idea, but we will see how it goes.
Good idea with a little tweak
# Jun 19 2009 at 7:32 AM Rating: Decent
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747 posts
Keep it the way it's being proposed and add another option for retro-capping your character, meaning if you have a lvl 80 already and don't want to level an alt from level 1 (or wherever that character might be) activate the NXP thing and then have another option to pay another fee to cap your character at whatever lvl you choose so you can run the old world raids, cap out in BG's, level with your friends, whatever. That way whetever you choose to do, you can with little to no hassle.... and since you truly are level capped at lvl 80, any quests you do at the lower levels when you retro-cap yourself would have the
XP->gold conversion.

Keep in mind...
# Jun 19 2009 at 6:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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6,678 posts
Keep in mind, the point of this commentary is to talk about how this change affects PvE. If all you want to do is rant about twinks, I suggest you check this forum thread.
____________________________
Only the exceptions can be exceptional.
Haha
# Jun 19 2009 at 4:25 AM Rating: Good
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1,634 posts
Quote:
If you really think that twinks are that pathetic that they only do it to kill less geared people then you're sadly (and pathetically) wrong.



I guess I'm pathetically wrong then...

It's never been about you.
# Jun 19 2009 at 4:09 AM Rating: Decent
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94 posts
I'm just so happy I made a dual specced 59 twink resto/feral druid too, as I can now run Original WoW endgame like MC, AQ and ZG as much as I like.

[just using up a double post here]

Edited, Jun 19th 2009 8:47am by polarityjp
It's never been about you.
# Jun 19 2009 at 3:18 AM Rating: Decent
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94 posts
Finally, after how many years of both twinks and non twinks demanding split BGs?

If you really think that twinks are that pathetic that they only do it to kill less geared people then you're sadly (and pathetically) wrong. I've got a main doing raiding, and alts all over the place running instances at every level (I'm even multiboxing so I can run lower instances on my own, seeing as Blizzard removed the incentive for most people to do them, and it's next to impossible to find a group who can actually play as tank/healer/dps).

Twinking is just an optional extra, not the main game for me, and to think anyone would just do it to specifically target you and ruin your game is just plain self centered. It's not about you, there may be a few who set out to play like that but they get bored, and never stick around, because the huge majority of the twinking community want to play against other twinks. Don't believe me? Got the guts to admit you are wrong? Take a look at twinkinfo.com and pwndepot.com, the 2 main twinking communities. Nothing about farming lowbies, and plenty of people celebrating this change.

This is the best thing to happen to twinks, so I'm going to be rolling a few more really soon.

And I'm heading off to the forums to suggest that they drop the entry level on instances like Gnomeregan, Scarlet Monastery, and RFD to 19 too.
Excited!
# Jun 19 2009 at 1:52 AM Rating: Good
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1,882 posts
Wow, I didn't think of the potential for what I shall dub "retro-capping". You know, I HAVE been talking about this for a good six months now. How it'd be cool if Blizzard introduced "retro servers" allowing those interested to experience game-play before the expansions or before lich king. With the advent of the NXP system this is possible. And I never correlated the two. My first thought was "Good riddens twinks!".


This function really has me excited. Although I disagree with the author on the price. I don't think the ability to disable a major function of the game should be cheap. I'm going to make a wild guess that 95% of the population who uses this option will already have a main character. The majority of first timers aren't going to disable XP gains. I don't think Blizzard wants them too either. But once you've reached the level cap and have some cash income (doing dailies you can easily pay for turning XP on and off daily...although I don't see the point).

I also disagree on the quest gold like level cap. You're not at level cap. I don't think you should be awarded gold for running extra quests with no XP. Although, from what I've heard if you're using a trial account once you hit the level 20 cap you start making gold instead of XP.... I still think that's a bit much. But I wouldn't be heart broken if they did indeed implement it.


I'm really looking forward to something like this. I've been disappointed. Questing in outland anymore I'm already ready for Northrend by the time I leave Zangamarsh. And although I'd love to experience more of Outland content, once I hit the Northrend mark I just can't bring myself to do it. You start tearing through Outland stuff too easily and that just really bores the game. But the ability to say turn off XP when I hit 62 in Hellfire. Turn it back on for some Terrokar and Zangamarsh. Turn it off at 65. Start some nagrand and blades edge, turn it back on until 68, Netherstorm and Shadowmoon Valley. Maybe even get groups for Kara going at level again. Experience things I never did. It'd be fun!

I'm excited!
Yay for the small things...
# Jun 18 2009 at 11:49 PM Rating: Decent
I like this idea... though I wouldn't use it for PvE unless they implemented the extra gold when capped but it would be nice to do that. While I did enjoy doing all the old raids back in the 60 and 70 brackets, going back and visiting them again at 80 proved a few things... I don't miss those days enough to go back and do it again... as a 60 or 70 for any prolonged duration.

But it will also sadly lead to a newer generation of twinks who lock themselves up at a certain point and now, no longer under the constraints of XP, will become a minor (or sometimes major) bane of others who will want endless runs through instances to find 'just the right' mix of items, now without fear of getting past that all important level for their current stage of twinky annoyance. At least at the lower levels before all the honor gear starts to kick in. But the annoyance is still going to be there... just a bit more pronounced.

Maybe it will kill the twinks. That would be nice... without the hordes (in the bad way, not the faction way) of non-twinks for them to kill and to make them feel good about their disproportionately large kills (its the reason you make twinks, right?)... they might come to their senses now that it is a bit harder for them. With the only getting to fight other twinks thing.

But, to get back to the original posts' comment, if it does take off and there is a rebirth in low end raid content interest and they treat it like being old 70 capped or 80 capped, it would really be a fantastic move on the part of the programmers and I wouldn't mind doing it... just for a change of pace in things. Which I think a good deal of people need at times.

This is of course, after people relearn how to play at those stages of game play again.

Still remember how to do it all without an 80 to run you through it? I am sure a good number do but not that many.
well
# Jun 18 2009 at 10:58 PM Rating: Good
As most everyone knows, there has been a distressing "abandonment" of prior builds when expansions are released. If you weren't around at the 60 cap, or 70 cap, there's a lot of dungeon content you'll probably never see. Some people don't care, some do. I was there for all caps, but sometimes "time ran out" and the next expansion was out. Any instance progress was moot, and you leveled to the next cap to start over.

The only solutions I came up with were level-capping the instances (ie FFXI), or stop raising the level cap (DAoC). In either case, you'll have even more gear in the bank than you do now. Also, if the dungeons were level-capped below 80, there would need to be an incentive to run them.

tl;dr is: the potential of this change is huge, but time will tell whether people will utilize it as you describe, or prefer to stay at the cutting edge of min/maxing.
Don't Think So
# Jun 18 2009 at 8:35 PM Rating: Good
I have been an owner/administrator for a Day of Defeat international tournament for over 7 years now. We play Wednesday and Saturdays for 10 hours each (used to be 12 hours). We have one European server and one NA server. MANY times players have wanted to have a "special" game time going back "pre-source ( 3.1)" or even back to the 1.3 beta days... [I bring this up to your reference about folks wanting to stay at 60 an re-run the same instances over and over]. Net results... TOTAL lost of interest after the first few battles. Twinks are just ego centric glory hounds that don't really care about the content of the game but enjoy looking at themselves in the mirror. Designing a system just for them is not a profitable way to go. I DO agree to remove them from the regular Battlegrounds as they DO inhibit regular play as it was designed to be played on a similar level playing field... I think gaining XP is a GREAT idea, along with an option for those that only wish to be twinks removed from the regular battlefields and have their own.

Your example of wanting to do all of the quests is great.. I have completed that and started EACH toon from their own starting point. It's a blast doing the quests from all of the different perspectives. Why do you need just one toon to do them? Get some variety dude.. mix and match toons and their classes.

lol.. a long way out... bottom line I guess is that I don't think those ideas would work. Too many players are too young and have no interest in repetition unless they get something for nothing. It may work for the first month... then expect a huge drop in interest.
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