Class Balance Examination

From the Developer's Corner: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The EverQuest development team continues the process of evaluating class roles, class definitions, and class desirability to ensure that each class provides value in group and raid situations. Moreover, we have found that the term "class balance" is a term that means many different things to different people and we believe that it's more accurate to define our goal in another way. We believe at its core, each class should be fun and have a desirable role in raid and group situations and it is to this standard that we will hold our evaluations as EQ continues to grow and evolve. We have begun the process by looking into group roles. We plan to take a look at raid roles after we have finished with groups. We are looking at what each class has to offer in a group setting, how useful and viable that role is and finally, how well they perform these duties. The team is currently reviewing extensive data from live servers to make sure that the conclusions we make are as accurate as possible. Once we have data that we can share, we will ask for your input and insight on our conclusions. Our goal is to identify the underlying reasons behind any problems we uncover and we may find it necessary to make fundamental changes to the game to address them. As we move forward with this process, we will keep the community apprised of our findings and gather their input on the changes we feel need to be made to make players of all classes in EverQuest feel useful as they fulfill roles that are interesting and fun to play. We would like you to be part of these discussions and help us to determine the shape of classes in EverQuest's future. Thank you for you time and for being a part of this wonderful world that is Norrath. As an initial step in this process, while we are gathering data, we're going to host a live chat between players and the developers to begin this discussion. We will announce the time and date for the chat in the next few days. The EverQuest Team. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

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RE: Bards
# Nov 04 2011 at 10:01 PM Rating: Decent
Edit.

Edited, Nov 5th 2011 12:19am by KGBSpectre
Hope this is posted in the right place
# Jan 26 2005 at 4:29 PM Rating: Decent
1 post
This SOE class nerfing idea is really scary. SOE nerf surfing again. I left EQ for EQ2 because I thought it would be an EQ with better graphics. It's not. The biggest thing that I despise about EQ2 and the reason I'm going back to EQ is that there is no diversity in classes. The class tree in EQ2 is the problem. Druids, Shamans, and clerics heal equally well. All Rangers, Bards, Assasins, Rogues, do about the same damage as do all the mage classes. All Paladins, Sk's, Warriors do the same thing. There is no reason to call all the various classes different names in EQ2. They should just have four boring classes (and they really do) Warrior, mage, scout, and priest. That's all there really is anyway. Boring!!
What made the classes in EQ so much fun was their diversity. My ranger was a master at mob control in a group. I could snare, root, taunt, and deal some pretty nice damage. My rogue could do some massive damage, but had no crowd control abilities. Both classes were nice, depending on what was needed in the group.
The problem has never been that one class was just supreme over another making some players feel useless (bless their hearts). The problem is and always has been that some people just don't know how to use the strengths of their class and overcome their weaknesses. It would be a serious mistake to nerf the classes up and try to fit them into nice neat little categories like *damage *healing *tank etc.
I came back to EQ recently because I missed a ranger being a ranger and a rogue being a rogue, but if SOE does what it sounds like they want to do (make EQ into EQ2) I will just have to get a life and cancel my account once and for all. I can't deal with a graphically challenged version of EQ2.
I think SOE should wait on this. EQ2 just came out. I think a lot of old EQers will be returning from EQ2, unless SOE goes ahead and shoots itself in the foot and leaves them with no home to return to. What they need to be concentrating on if they want to improve EQ and keep it a viable money-making operation is not class nerfing, but content.
RE: Hope this is posted in the right place
# Jan 26 2005 at 10:22 PM Rating: Default
I think that people are sick of how the EQ devs handle their game. I'm one of them. Take this example....they put up a discussion thread on their forums to let us put in our points of view for the changes coming to the epic 1.5's and 2.0's. After 16 pages of input from the people that pay EQ's bills, the devs decide to go with what THEY originally posted they wanted to put in, from page one. Keep in mind that unless you currently pay for an EQ account, you can't post, which is total BS IMO. I was going to give some advice on what would make myself come back to EQ. They can rot now. Anyway, SK's, Pallies, and Druids are probably the most pissed off with the result (or lack there of) of that thread.

Discussion threads, dev chats, interviews are all just a farce to make us think they are listening, when really...they have their own agenda.


Some left EQ for EQ2. I would imagine alot have left EQ2 for WoW. Many people migrated from DAOC, Lineage 2, EQ2, EQ1 (which had the bulk) to WoW.

After playing EQ for 3 years, I am leaving disheartedly also. I leave behind a lvl 70 Druid with his epic 1.5 and over 300 AA's that i've grown attached to like a nephew or a younger brother. Seeing the mess they've made of our (Druid's) epic, shows me they have no clue what they are doing and don't care. They seriously don't play any of the classes they design for. This last patch made me finally hit the cancel button. They will not get another penny from me.

The re-envisioning will be a joke, just wait and see. EQ is pretty much on the way out. That's why they are doing something as drastic as this. They've had their chance for the past year, before WoW came out and did nothing. They dug themselves a pretty big hole, hopefully WoW or any of the other better MMO's will cover it up.

If you want a game that's very well designed, thought out, and actually alot of fun (gasp) give WoW a try. Just pick a low or medium population server.
play wow
# Jan 25 2005 at 5:42 PM Rating: Decent
WoW is better, faster gameplay, less down time, all classes can solo, some better then others, 41 rogue friend solos still. quest system better then eq2. WoW 10
EQ 7
EQ2 4

thats my ranking of the current mmo games

played eq2 for a week, hated it
played eq for 4 years had fun with it for 3 years.
hope they plan carefully before they nerf
# Jan 24 2005 at 3:40 PM Rating: Default
OMG...more nerfing. I am very concerned that SOE will be make such significant changes that the characters we have worked so long and hard at will be no longer fun to play. I've worked damn hard to get my necro to 70, elementally flagged and geared. It has taken me years to get to this point..it would be a shame to nerf the class to the point where it all would have been a waste of time and effort.

I for one, don't think I could level another alt up to 70 because SOE has drastically changed the rules. I am not against change, I just hope that they think carefully and plan well...
ranger stuff and other misc. crap
# Jan 23 2005 at 10:43 PM Rating: Decent
I have been playing for 4 years now whenever I get the chance. My main is only a 66 ranger. Obviously I dont play enough to complain about balancing, but I still think it would be nice if a ranger could at least bind himself anywhere. Heck, we are supposed to live off the land and be self sufficient, give us bind as an AA ability. Its not like im asking for gate. secondly, i have noticed that as a damage dealer, I dont cause enough. Once I got AM3, my damage roughly tripled what i do with swords. It seems that once i hit lvl 40, i couldnt solo anywhere. Heck, necros are soloing in NC and anywhere else they have plenty of room to run, me I can only really solo in PoN by the IZ just in case i cant land my snare or root while i shoot something from a mile away. I love the weaponshield disc even more than the trueshot disc(not that i feel they should get rid of it) but please give us something else that could compliment that ability. What about an AA for haste as well?
Also, is there any way for when we turn in tribute items, that we can get them appraised before we turn them in? ie...i will give you blahblah points for this.
SOE Update on Class Re-envisioning
# Jan 21 2005 at 3:04 PM Rating: Decent
40 posts
Some more info on class re-envisioning Options

Brenlo
Community Manager
Posts: 1808
Registered: 02-24-2004

Server: Test

Viewed 1359 times


Greetings all,

We wanted to pass along an update on our work on EverQuest classes. We are still gathering data from many of the logs that we have now enabled, however discussions are still occurring and progress is being made. We wanted to answer a couple of questions in the meantime to keep you all up to date.

Why do you need all this new data, don't you log everything anyway?

While many things in EQ have always been logged, others have not. When we decided to begin the process of evaluating class roles in groups, we found that some of the data we wanted was not available, so in our last update we added many new logging features. We found that some of the logs had to be adjusted to get us better information and we have made the necessary changes and plan to push them live with our next scheduled update. At the loggings completion, we will have mountains of accurate, server gathered data that will need to be digested and organized.

The EQ team stated that they wanted to evaluate group roles, what does that mean?

We hear from some classes in the EQ community that in a group situation, they are less desirable than other classes. That's not a fun position to be caught in when you are playing a game that relies upon groups for most encounters. This prompted the team to sit down and took a hard look at what roles there are in a typical group (Tank, DPS, Healing, Debuff, Crowd Control, Pulling, Buffing are some examples but there are others) *Note that these can be broken down into sub groups and debated endlessly, however for the sake of this discussion let's settle on these for now*. We then identified which classes filled which roles and numerically identified how well they filled that particular role. After this exercise, it was plain to see that some classes filled several roles well and others performed in a secondary or tertiary role only. This came as no surprise to us, but we felt it was an important first step to formally identify where we felt classes are today so we could get a better perspective on how much each class would need to change to help bring it in line with the other classes in EverQuest.

Does SOE consider every role to be of equal value to a group?

As the game has changed and evolved, the roles have shifted in their value. For example, the advent of longer buff timers means that a buffer might not be as needed in a pick up group as a DPS class is because the buffs can be acquired by players in a safe zone long in advance of actually reaching the content that requires them. This is another tricky part of this puzzle that we are sorting out. We are looking at the group roles and intend to make sure that each role is necessary.

When do you plan to release your conclusions and make changes?

When we have conclusions, we will release them. The end result of all this may be a few minor tweaks, or it may be some vast sweeping changes. We are far too early in the process to state what will be changing. We will make any changes slowly and with your full awareness. We will put things on test for you to mull over and consider and gather your feedback as we do. This is very much a cooperative effort between our community and our development team.

The EverQuest Team

Brenlo Bixiebopper
Community Relations Manager

---------------------------------------------
Halfling, Cajun Style!

ldon
# Jan 20 2005 at 5:17 PM Rating: Default
when sony makes the new ldon expansion make the gear equal or very very close to raid gear not a bunch of junk *** gear just make it really hard to get then watch them flock back to eq and belive me you will
botting
# Jan 20 2005 at 5:13 PM Rating: Default
do something about all the bots omg no wonder why i cant find a group
COMMON SENSE
# Jan 20 2005 at 5:06 PM Rating: Default

I FEEL THAT ONE OF THE BIGGEST THINGS SONY CAN DO TO MAKE THIS GAME MORE PLAYABLE FOR ALL CLASSES IS MAKE MORE ZONES THAT ARE ALL UNDEAD / ANIMAL / SUMMONED OR ZONES WITH UNDEAD SUMMONED ANIMALS (EVERY MOB NOT JUST A FEW ). ANOTHER BIG PROBLEM IS THAT THE ONLY 2 CLASSES THAT REALLY MATTER AND I MEAN (YOU CANT DO ANYTHING WORTH DOING WITHOUT THEM) IS A CLERIC AND WARRIOR IN MY OPINION A CLERIC SHOULDNT HAVE THE BEST REZ HEALS AND BUFFS IN THE GAME ITS JUST TO MUCH FOR ONLY ONE CLASS TO HAVE SPREAD IT AROUND MAN AND BTW LET ME WEAR A MAGE SUMMONED BELT WTF. ANOTHER BIG THING I WOULD LIKE TO SEE CHANGED IS THE FACT THAT I CANT MAKE WITH TRADESKILLS/BUY IN THE BAZ ITEMS THAT ARE EVEN CLOSE TO RAID GEAR (WHY WOULD ANY ITEM BE NO DROP ? I LOOTED IT FROM A MOB IS IT LIKE GLUED TO MY HAND OR SOMETHING) HECK YOU CANT EVEN DO A QUEST THAT MIGHT TAKE YOU 3 MONTHS OF KILLING TO GET GEAR THAT IS EVEN CLOSE TO RAID GEAR AND IF I CANT GET THE GEAR WITHOUT RAIDING WICH BTW MAYBE THERE ARENT ANY RAID GUILDS THAT RAID WHEN I PLAY (ANOTHER BIG PROBLEM) OF COURSE THE RAID GUILDS DONT WANT THAT BECAUSE THEN THEY CANT BRAG ABOUT THEIR UBA GUILD AND CALL YOU TO WEAK AND PATHETIC TO GROUP WITH (KISS YOUR 70 SPELLS GOODBYE LET THE RICH GET EVEN RICHER WILE WE GROUP PLAYERS GET NOTHING) SOUNDS LIKE MAYBE I SHOULD GIVE EQ UP I MEAN WHY KEEP PLAYING IT DOESNT GET ME ANYWERE. HERE IS A COUPLE OTHER THINGS >>> PUT A POK STONE IN WOS WTF DRUIDS AND WIZZ WONT PORT YOU ANYWAYS SO IT DOESNT MAKE THEM VALUBLE>>>> MAKE SUMMON CORPSE WORK IN ANY ZONE AT ANYTIME >>>> GREEN MOBS SHOULDNT BE ABLE TO KILL A LEV 70 NO MATTER WHAT >>> I COULD GO ON AND ON BUT SOE ISNT LISTENING ANYWAYS SO F IT
RE: COMMON SENSE
# Jan 26 2005 at 5:35 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
GREEN MOBS SHOULDNT BE ABLE TO KILL A LEV 70 NO MATTER WHAT

In order for a green con'ed mob to not be able to kill a lvl 70, those mobs must have its dps output be modified to 0.

A lvl 1 mob (bats in FP) and a lvl 45 mob (rats in poj) hitting the same on a lvl 70 char?
A good place to find green mobs that can't kill a lvl 70 is in EC where the orc camps are. Just sit your lvl 70 char there and the orcs will NEVER kill you (tho some of the guards may wonder by and kill you... but that's a different story).

IMHO i do not believe that is possible and practicle.
RE: COMMON SENSE
# Jan 30 2005 at 12:54 PM Rating: Default
braindead name one lev 70 mob that 40 green conns could kill
RE: COMMON SENSE
# Jan 26 2005 at 5:14 PM Rating: Decent
this is class balancing forum ... in here u ask to...
Quote:
BTW LET ME WEAR A MAGE SUMMONED BELT WTF

Two problems arise with this.
1. You (your class) being able to wear a summoned "pet" belt with 650hp belt where the highest raw hp belt is arould 360 (with aug). You (your class) would be too overpowered.
2. The Mage class would be too overpowered and demanded for in all situations. Everyone would want a 64 (500hp belt) or 67 (650hp belt) mage for their own.
This is NOT CLASS BALANCING!!!
This is what YOU WANT...

This forum is more for brainstorming on how the balancing of EQ classes would make the game more enjoyable for EVERYONE as a game. It is NOT a place to rant about what YOU want!

IMHO...
RE: COMMON SENSE
# Jan 30 2005 at 1:04 PM Rating: Default
(1) so its ok for a cleric to have a 1700 hp buff 96 rez and ch but a mage cant have a 650 hp belt that players can wear when originally mages could summon armor for players ? (2) you mean like everyone wants a cleric for conviction aego or a chanter for c . whats the deal with your links btw is there a reason you put them there ? i thought this was for brainstorming?
RE: COMMON SENSE
# Jan 21 2005 at 11:22 AM Rating: Default
40 posts
Seems that I posted something about green mobs or even light blues not being able to kill off a level 70. Went to Rift Seekers last night. Died maybe 12 or 15 times with a group of level 70 and one 69. I was not the only one dying but this is absurd. All my gear is Omens and all is augumented. All buffed my HP was 8.2k but when the tank goes down I went down. And if I got aggro I went down. And if my invis popped I went down. But the main point here is YES I agree. My guild does not go out and raid the planes at least not yet. And I am not flagged for anything. BUT I still should have good enough gear and spells that I can go and not die every 20 minutes that I am trying to play.
RE: COMMON SENSE
# Jan 26 2005 at 5:27 PM Rating: Decent
You didn't state what class you are btw...

If you are a tank class (War, SK, Pal) and are 8.2k buffed then more work is needed (usually more work is needed for everyone even if they are "uber").
If you're not a tank class, you should not have gotten agro and "gone down". Your invis should not have droped also since the int caster invis spells past lvl 65 are able to give a stable 10+mins of invis to a target.

With great rewards come great risks...
RS is a zone dedicated to those who have spent considerable time Raiding/Lvling/AA'ing/etc. When i say considerable i do mean it. A single kill in this zone can range from 1.3x to over 2x the exp of a kill in MPG.

If you CHOOSE to venture into RS then you choose the dangerous path with many deaths awaiting. It cannot be used as a reason to ask Sony to "balance" the loot tables to everyone can attain the items that a Raid Encounter mob gives.

If this were done, there would be no point to raiding...(Raid=a large band of adventures with a common goal)

1. MPG exp is just as good if it's a balanced group that has no down time.
2. If your guild is not flagged or raiding much, it will sooner or later.
3. If you rather it be sooner than later, join a different guild. People have different reasons to be in a guild. If your reason of being guildied with friendly people whom you've known for so long out weighs your thirst for higher level raiding, so be it. It is all your CHOICE.
grouping
# Jan 18 2005 at 7:01 PM Rating: Decent
As a level 69 druid I find it way too difficult to get a group because at this point in the game the high end groups want specific classes that are the experts in the fields needed. Druids do a little of everything and aren't the best at anything, that's ok I was aware of this when I created the character, however at that time soloing was plausible which it isn't anymore, spells never stick to creatures needed for decent xp and even if they did way too many summon add that to that fact that they nerfed solo xp. So solution is either get me in a group in under 3hrs lfg or make it possible to solo again.
Druid's Need Help
# Jan 14 2005 at 10:52 PM Rating: Decent
I have a lvl 63 Druid - a general all around mediocre player at best with no special abilities especially since porting is more or less obsolete. My biggest problem I have with the class is the snare/root spells. They only work on mobs much lower than your lvl. I cannot snare or root anything close to my level. If by chance I do get something to land, it leaves faster than it took me to cast it. Please fix us. We all can't play in groups or take parts of raids, some of us must solo, but its kinda of hard when you can't even snare a mob high enough to get exp.
PvP
# Jan 13 2005 at 5:45 PM Rating: Default
I think PvP needs to be addressed on non PvP servers.

Let me tell you my story.

I was in the arena in the bazaar. At the time, I was playing a lvl 65 wizard. Now, I was stunned, I was mezzed, and I was charmed by an enchanter. This in itself was okay. I can understand this. Now, let me give you the particulars.

My magic resistance was at 320. Even with the best tash available, not only should I have resisted EVERY one of those spells, but they shouldn't have even landed. Not even a partial resist. When I was charmed, it lasted for over 30 seconds. 320 MR, mind you. When I was stunned, it lasted for full time, 1 second. 320... When I was mezzed, it lasted full time. Once again, 30 seconds.

Now, here is the kicker of this. The enchanter was level 24.

That, is what I call unbalanced. Especially when I am in a duel, and my best fire spell is fully resisted with a 120 FR. 320, 120... you do the math. Wizards at one time were absolutely FEARED when duelling. Now they are laughed at.

PvP is so incredibly broken that it is undesireable. At least after that enchanter... I haven't duelled in two years now. I won't until the issue is addressed either.
RE: PvP
# Jan 19 2005 at 11:05 PM Rating: Default
Edit.

Edited, Nov 5th 2011 12:18am by KGBSpectre
RE: PvP
# Jan 17 2005 at 11:30 PM Rating: Good
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but i thought you couldn't get charmed on non-pvp servers. Don't know that on PvP servers, but fairly certain on non, unless they changed it recently.

Secondly... this is complete BS. If you want to whine about your class, at least don't make complete bullsh*t like this up.
T-ROD
# Jan 12 2005 at 5:28 PM Rating: Default
I would like my mod rods to go back to what they were and become useful at raids again and not just be a bad wizard.
Monk Gear
# Jan 10 2005 at 9:31 PM Rating: Default
34 posts
Monks need gear that is not based just on wisdom, We pay way too much plat for gear just because it has that and mana on it. Also would like to see more monk useable gear thats lightweight. Just my 2cp. And no im not monk biased :) i have 2 accounts with at least one of each class.
Monk Gear
# Jan 10 2005 at 9:31 PM Rating: Default
34 posts


Edited, Mon Jan 10 21:32:37 2005
Re: Class Balancing
# Jan 10 2005 at 6:53 PM Rating: Good
I have to say in one of the first posts Magzavus said it best... The classes arent broke so please SOE dont go fixing us again.. I dread when soe decides to start meddling with classes. It drove me away from the game for nearly 2 years. When they decided in their quest for "class balancing" that necros were too powerful and started nerfing us to death, I finally got sick of it and completely deleted my original account which had my 56 necro on it, along with 4 other characters in their 30s. Granted a bit of an extreme solution but i was fed up. People always crying about what other classes can do.. You know you have an option.. play that other class!! I know, I know its a crazy novel idea but you really can! You dont hear me bellyaching about how druids can quad kite and I cant do ya? or how warriors can stand toe to toe with mobs that would breathe on me and turn me to paste do ya? No you don't, so if you want to solo start playing a class that can solo! Melee classes will never be that good at soloing, they arent made to nor were they ever meant to be soloers.. Listen to me tho I am not saying they CANT solo I am just saying that melees arent going to be as good at it as a soloing class like a drood or necro... But Magzavus had something else right.. If soe really wants to do something they need to give the players that are still here in eq a reason to stay... they need to give old players a reason to return.. and they need to give new players a reason to give the original world of norrath a try.. I love eq and there is much here i would like to do and see before i leave norrath.. Ive no desire to play eq2 at this time... Graphics dont make or break a game.. they can enhance a good game and make it great.. but when you have a proven, tried, wonderfully rich, fully realized world like the original eq you dont have to have bleeding edge graphics.. You just have to occasionally add some new fresh content.. SOE please dont turn your back on EQ1
P.S. one other thing as a necro I have always had a bit of trouble finding a group but now it seems even worse.. so i too have felt the sting of eq2.. If after this year when the next expansion has come out, if server populations do not improve substantially then soe will hopefully start merging servers.. It will either prove to be the death knell for eq or it will breathe new life into the game and create server homes for those of us who truly wish to stay in the original norrath
RE: Re: Class Balancing
# Jan 12 2005 at 7:53 PM Rating: Decent
Personally, WE ARE ALL NERFED! Its bull that a green mob in Bloodfield can kill me. It pisses me off that when I should be able to kill though all green mobs with no problems that I have to waste 75% of my mana keeping my dog Warg alive and it take so long for the mob to die. If they don't fix this, I will be leaving to WoW for good. But I know SoE doesn't care and that is what pisses me off the most.
RE: Re: Class Balancing
# Jan 18 2005 at 7:58 PM Rating: Decent
40 posts
Excellent point. As stated before this goes back to game balance. A green mob should not be able to easly take down a player. Sure if you stupid enough to sit there and let it hit on you without lifting a finger or there happens to be 100+ of them there may be a chance you are going to die. But the green mobs in Omens are killers. At the same time a dark blue/blue mob should not be able to kill my 70 Bstlord in MPG but it happens. And a dark blue mob should not be able to take out a group but I was running a backup cleric to MPG last night to rez a group which was wiped because more then one blue mob showed up at one time (and we did have an enchanter).
Class roles
# Jan 09 2005 at 11:34 PM Rating: Decent
Talking about specific class problems might not be the most useful thing for the dev teams - each of the classes have a top 10 list where these things are discussed and presented to them by each of the class reps.

They do mention specifically that they wish to examine group/raid roles, so I think they need to get feedback on what those roles are, how important each role is, and which classes can do those roles.

For starters, one could begin with a chart which lists some group roles, and what classes can perform those roles in a primary or secondary manner. A very basic version of such a list might look like this (disclaimer: example only!!)

This isn't meant to be accurate by any means, just an example of what one of these charts might look like (please don't flame). For starters, there would have to be different charts for various level spreads and ways to take gear/AA/situation into consideration. A lot of things can vary by situation, such as necro or druid spells which affect only certain types of monsters, or AA/gear that allow a class to fill a primary/secondary role they normally wouldn't be able to, or different methods for some things (like using root for CC, etc.)

So I think the discussion should focus on the roles people can fulfill within groups and raids, and the importance of those roles. Obviously DPS is the most important role; that's the only way to kill things. So it makes sense that DPS would be the role that the most number of classes can do well or decently. Tanking and healing would end up near the top of the importance list also.

I only included the solo category because it just seems a little unfair that different classes can contribute the same effectiveness to some major roles but one or more of those classes can solo while others cannot and must rely on groups if they wish to gain xp, etc.

This also makes it easier to analyze who is getting the better deal in terms of roles. For example, one class may have only one or two important roles they can do well, however another class may be able to perform those roles just as well and fill other roles also.

Anyway, my point is just that there could be more discussion on the roles they are talking about balancing, and how important each role should be to groups/raids and each class.
How to fix Berserkers
# Jan 09 2005 at 8:29 PM Rating: Decent
Berserkers

Berserkers are without question the current ******* children of the EQ world. Gates of Discord was sold largely on the fact that SOE was adding a new playable class. The berserker was supposed to be the master of the 2 handed weapon. He was also supposed to be capable of massive damage from throwing axes. Well as I have been playing a berserker for most of the past 8 months now I am convinced that SOE has done only what they must in order to keep the class as a playable class. They have done NOTHING to give the berserker a desirable role within either a group or raid. Berserker dps remains on par with that of a warrior until well into the upper levels and only begins to make good on SOEs promise of massive damage after about 150 AAs. The frenzy skill is the berserkers ONLY class defining skill, and its damage is not even based on the weapon the berserker is using. Give a forged throwing dagger to both a berserker and a wizard and they will both be capable of doing the same amount of damage with it. Throwing, while a nice curiosity with our cool summoned axes is not really very usefull for raids or groups. My cleric does more damage with a summoned hammer than my zerker does with his lvl 66 throwing axes.

Fixes that Berserkers need to make them a viable group and raid asset.

1. Lower the reuse timer on War Crys.
2. Fix the way Frenzy works so that frenzy damage is based on weapon dmg.
3. Improve damage from throwing. Also lower the cost of Balanced Axe Components. 20 components costs 91 plat in PoK. 20 components summons 400 axes. With a throwing axe delay of 29 this equates to 18 minutes 20 seconds worth of fighting for 91 plat. This means that in any given evening of raids a berserker using throwing axes alone will spend more platinum on summoning axes than any cleric EVER did on peridots.
4. Add a plethora of Berserker only weapons of all 2h variation. With the exception of the 3 berserker epic versions there are only just a handfull of berserker only weapons. This means that the berserker is forced to use weapons that are not in any way shape or form designed to his strengths.

Make these fixes and the Berserker could become what SOE sold it as. A class capable of dealing massive amounts of damage. Don't fix the class and all you have is a warrior with less AC and less HP's.
RE: How to fix Berserkers
# Jan 12 2005 at 8:51 PM Rating: Decent
When i heard berserkers would be only using 2h weapons.. i had amusing visions of them wielding 2 of them ... *drool*

GBoC and a VDD.... Epic and a BoW

MUAHAHAAHA MUAAAAHH HAHHAH

that would fix them ;)
RE: How to fix Berserkers
# Jan 22 2005 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
I would like to see the ability to dual wield two 2handed weapons through AA points available to Warr/ber classes...would have too be a race limit though, would have to be large races only, if SoE would want to keep the " realistic " theme.

Sigh, of course all the little warriors would whine so maybe give the little classes a much better AC due to small size as opposed to the easier to hit larger targets.

Man, Sony must have a Beach of a time rtyin to keep everybody happy :P

Be safe and rare drops!
RE: How to fix Berserkers
# Jan 21 2005 at 12:04 PM Rating: Decent
40 posts
I recently watch on DVD the King Arthur movie. Bors would have been a prime example IMHO of a zerker and he is not using a two handed weapon but a weapon in both hands. So put a weapon in each hand and turn the zerker loose.

I do have a 20th lvl zerker and 70 level beastlord. At the rate the zerker is going he will pass up my beastlord well before he passes level 65 as far as being an uber toon.
Wizards
# Jan 09 2005 at 5:59 PM Rating: Excellent
Wizards used to be important to EQ, imo they have been set aside.

Wizards basically have been known for two things since there inception.

DPS

Teleporting

Both have been sold out in one respect or another.

Improve our ability to do sustained dmg. I'm not asking for the best, but we are a dps class and warriors should not out dps us, period.

Burst Damage : What can I say, noone should even come close here.
RE: Wizards
# Jan 09 2005 at 10:52 PM Rating: Decent
Agreed. Wizards are becoming a luxury class. Heck, without some of the harder to attain high level spells a mage is better DPS and more valuable with ModRods, pets, and other useful gear. Wizards, IMO, are glorified artillery pieces.
why?
# Jan 09 2005 at 4:58 PM Rating: Decent
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52 posts
i'm not sure what the purpose of this "class balancing" is. except to stir up something. its clear that SOE subscribes the idea of "if it ain't broke, we'll tamper with it to drive even more players away". its bad enough that EQ2 came out and seemingly 50% of the game population has left (from my views of the server i'm on), but now this class balancing garbage gets mentioned and people start going crazy. kudos to the marketing person who suggested this because I'd bet this will keep some people subscribed just to see what changes are made. i've grouped with many different classes in many different zones and they've all served a purpose. provided the person playing the account has a clue.

in my opinion this game is winding down and this is an attempt to breathe new life into it. even if its only an idea, some people will hang on just based on the idea that theres a big change coming and they want to see what it is. the sad part is that this game is becoming less popular not because of a rival companies game, but because of its own sequel. who has seen an open raid lately? guilds are hurting for players to show up to raid, no one can find groups. and is it because classes aren't balanced? could the fact that there are less players have anything to do with it?

why not try to get players interested in the game again instead of tampering with something that is fine as it is? maybe make an expansion with more than 12 zones. the players that didn't go over to EQ2 have proven that they're die-hard players. why not give something back besides expansions with less zones, ideas of tampering with classes they've played for years. instead of "fixing" something that isn't broken, why not take a look at why there aren't as many players. i believe that most players were happy with the classes for the most part until they read a tiny little bit about class balancing then they flip out.

so please don't mess with the classes. we're fine on this end, fix something on yours to get players interested in the game again.
RE: why?
# Jan 21 2005 at 1:25 PM Rating: Decent
Awesome post. I couldn't have said it any better.

All I ask is to leave the classes alone. I am fed up wit the way Sony bows down to the upper end guilds while squatting over everyone else and taking a huge dump.

Are they the sqeakiest wheels? Come on, SOE, give the little man something here. I am sick of getting **** raped on prices in the bazaar because I do not belong to a high end guild nor do I multibox 6 accounts. Im not asking for uber gear-I'm asking for gear good enough to continue playing without massive downtime as well as the spells that vendors don't sell, (high end)
LOL
# Jan 09 2005 at 1:21 PM Rating: Decent
38 posts
My main is a 65 Shammy, and mainly what I want is for my pet to do more, and sum AAs for it would be nice too since damn near every other pet class got them!!
RE: LOL
# Jan 09 2005 at 2:29 PM Rating: Decent
While we all have a "wish list" for our favorite classes, Shammies do seem to have it pretty high on the "desireablity list". I love grouping with shaman they are versitale as can be. They have a great slow, they have great buffs(even at fairly low levels), then there is their damaging spells (maybe not as powerful as an INT caster, but still pack some serious punch), and top it all off with some healing capability. I think the reason the Shaman pet is not so strong is due to all the other powers that they get. Still summoning pets takes a pretty good sized chunk of mana, so I say anything that keep ghost puppy from getting killed would be a nice way to round out the shaman.
Bards
# Jan 09 2005 at 1:15 PM Rating: Default
Edit.

Edited, Nov 5th 2011 12:16am by KGBSpectre
RE: Bards
# Jan 10 2005 at 2:28 AM Rating: Good
""The dps on the class is fairly low, possibly the lowest of the hybrids.""
compare your dps with ANY paladin of equal gear to you then say that (i would add shadowknights into it but they have more dps then paladins via dot's dd's)

P.S. yes even if you are fighting undead still compare
RE: Bards
# Jan 10 2005 at 12:24 PM Rating: Default
Edit.

Edited, Nov 5th 2011 12:18am by KGBSpectre
RE: Bards
# Jan 10 2005 at 11:44 PM Rating: Default
Actually take a look at what's needed to get Nightbane then compare it to (bard 2.0) then factor in the fact a pally is giving up their shield and it's usually not inconsiderable stats and will NEVER dual wield and explain to me why any bard weapon *should* compare to a knight only weapon?

How many other classes can be running for their lives and still cast heals or nuke a mob? How many dots or general purpose nukes does a pally get? How many resist debuffs does a pally get? How many group buffs does a pally get other than brell's? How many defensive disciplines do knights get?
(Answer to all is NONE btw)

Paladins are meant to be TANKS first and foremost. Granted, not as good as warrior but far better than bards (utility class), rangers, beastlords, shamans, etc. As for our ability to crit undead for 6k, how many undead can be found in zones beyond Luclin and LDONs for high end encounters? Even Luclin doesnt have overwhelming hordes of undead for paladins to flex their "muscle" on and only a small handful of planes have undead. I've personally seen undead in 1 OoW/GoD zone so Slay Undead is hardly the overpowering melee weapon you'd like to believe it is (and would be more like 8k crits with something the quality of Nightbane but still too situational to be useful)

Bards aren't menat to stand in a mobs face and beat it to death and their skills/weapons reflect this - always have, always will. If you are used for nothing but support songs in raids, perhaps you should take that up with your raid leaders or find another class to play if you want mad dps.
RE: Bards
# Jan 12 2005 at 12:58 AM Rating: Default
Edit.

Edited, Nov 5th 2011 12:09am by KGBSpectre
RE: Bards
# Jan 13 2005 at 8:54 AM Rating: Default
Well, you are so far off lol .. bards have "huge" HP's ? .. whom do you play that has "huge" HP's .. my lvl 64 bard has about the same HP's as my 54 mage fully raid buffed ( not counting the new conviction and wushi ) now for SOE !

SOE : please give bards more melee D.P.S. its sad that we mitigate damage like a wizzy its even more sad that we are a plate class and we take full damage from green mobs.
we NEED dual wield before AA's and a way to taunt besides our regen and bellows ( you already "fixed" our agro mod to the point that song of dawn is usless )
as for the person that said bards can out damage a ranger , thats just stupid flat out plain and simple , monks and wizards have a hard time out DPS'ing a ranger with EQ and AM3 with or without trushot.
can bards do 16K damage in 12 seconds ,, nah i think not.

you took our one ability to AE kite many mobs, did you ever actually try this ? .. if you get hit just once ,,ONCE !!! yes once,your dead ,, our charm and mezzes are far below par to say the least and the disc's that we get I.E. puretone and deft dance ,, OH please ,, somhow "fix" them ,, make the reuse timer on deftdance like LoH.
for all you rerods that will flame this ..
deft dance disc lasts 18 seconds makes you avoid about 99 % of incoming melee ( supposed to be 100% )and gives you a "chance" to dual wield on every combat round .. well NOT ! not even close .. then the reuse timer is like 1.5 hours ,, WEEE !!! yeah cause if we could use that more offte it would make us unstopable !!..
/rant off

Edited, Thu Jan 13 09:09:50 2005
RE: Bards
# Jan 13 2005 at 1:32 PM Rating: Default
Edit.

Edited, Nov 5th 2011 12:14am by KGBSpectre
RE: Bards
# Jan 15 2005 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
35 posts
No, KGB, YOU are the one who should check for stupid comments before calling others names! do you really HAVE a Bard??? Look at your comments.

Quote:
"Cast heals? Oh, thats right. Bards don't cast heals. How many stuns do bards get?... Duration hastes?"


I have a Paladin AND a Bard. Yes, the Bard is worse DPS than my Pally, but that's about all I agree with. Everyone with some EQ knowledge knows that Bards are the worst DPS class.

The whole POINT of a Bard is that they were "group-beneficial" and could do a LITTLE of EVERYTHING. The same as knowing that the point of a Pally's job is to stand and take an ***-whooping, not provide the group DPS. Know your role!

Bards don't "cast" anything, but you knew that by level 2, didn't you? YES, Bards heal. YES, Bards get stuns, and YES Bards get Haste. What were you smoking when you typed that?

Quote:
Yes, sanctification is nothing.


Exactly.

Quote:
Paladins also get an offensive discipline (Holyforge), so you may want to look that up the next time you do some research.


You, and the BAD Pallys that use it all the time, may want to look it up also. Holyforge works ONLY on Undeads, which we all know are scarce as hell in the upper game. I'm lucky if I use it more than once every month.

Quote:
"then factor in the fact a pally is giving up their shield and it's usually not inconsiderable stats"


That fact means that a Pally wielding the Epic 2.0 has probably merely broken even on the HPs he traded out with his last weapon and shield. Pallys didn't really gain a thing in that all-important department.

Quote:
The biggest problem with bards is their huge amount of hp


This was the worst comment EVER. Bards have huge HPs? What game are you playing, seriously?

Quote:
Maybe because your character sucks. My bard has... (yada yada, big deal).


As I quoted above, you said "BARDS"... not 'YOUR' Bard. Strip the gear and Bard HPs are junk compared to a stripped melee. You, sir, are NOT a melee. Go make one if you want to melee.

Quote:
If you're going to make stupid comments, at least have something to back them up... Now, after you realize that you made a fool of yourself on Allakhazam's forum, go to the Glade


Practice what you preach.
RE: Bards
# Jan 16 2005 at 4:08 AM Rating: Default
Edit.

Edited, Nov 5th 2011 12:00am by KGBSpectre
what balance?
# Jan 09 2005 at 12:40 AM Rating: Excellent
Dear SOE,

About class balance examination.

This sounds like if a new expansion was being to come.

I don’t play a high end toon but reading forum posts I think that what classes don’t need is its spells capped at high level, or it’s more useful spells been always resisted or never more working correctly.

For more fun and class balance, let high level pallys stun and high level shamys slow and high lvl enchanters charm and mezz and high lvl necro darkness and fear, let rangers and druids
snare and root mobs, etc. Let every class play in the way that it was played before arriving at a high level and you will be needed, any class you were, at groups. Please, don’t let useful spells be capped at high level. Give warriors tools to manage aggro and monks tools to pull more quick. Give something useful to all classes to continue making its job at group, don’t nerf useful spells or skills.

For more fun let people have his spells more easily when they level, not like now that people have to wait 2 or 5 levels until spells are not useful.

For more fun let casual players get some good equipment in order they could group more easily with raid players. Perhaps if tradeskill items weren’t 99% unuseful to sell to players it will be fun because Tailors and Blacksmithers could build better armour and weapons for casual players: not
Necessarily as good as raid players armour but enough good to group sometimes With them. If bazaar is going to continue as empty like lately, im afraid that this could be unuseful too.

A better LFG window for every player will be really useful. Put LFG window and friends window together and make it more useful. Let us look for group at any server. Let us look for group for all of our toons with the same tool and at any server. Im not going to pay for transfer toons at other server if at my server are not enough players, I will cancel my account: let me log on with any of my toons at any server where a group is looking for players and everyone will be more satisfied.

I expect this could be useful.
Sorry for badspelling, English is not my language.
monks
# Jan 08 2005 at 11:38 PM Rating: Decent
what about monks...........???

A Monk is perhaps one of the greatest classes in EverQuest. Few people truly understand the immensely powerful Monk class, but when they see a Monk in action, they are in awe. With the ability to heal yourself, deliver incredible damage, and always having a "get out of death free card", there is simply no comparing any other class to the Monk.

Get the BEST Monk gear...??????????
leather only with wieght restrictions.BullShi&

How to improve monks in groups

1) more dps
2) group mend aa
3) innate stun resist
--

Group role for a monk should include but not be limited too:

1. Best dps from any angle.
2. Best puller. Was up until PoP.
3. Add tank ( Note: not Main tank ). Was up until PoP.
4. Scout. Would add to our pulling skills.
5. Group mend/haste/regen benefits.

I would also like to see some benefits from grouping with a monk, for example the tranquil nature of a monk would boost / overclock regen both mana and hp at varying levels dependant on your level/gear. Haste would also be a nice group benefit from grouping with a monk.

I'd like to see pulling surpass bards again, but still make pulling challenging, one thing I have mentioned already is a Target blur skill, 50% success rate 3-6 secs recast, small end usage. Its sickening how easy FM makes pulling for bards, either nerf that or improve monk pulling, or make content that only monks can pull.

Pick locks, this is very minor but I would like to see monks get pick locks.

1) Viable but risky exp tank. Not as risky as today, but we shouldn't encroach on Knights ( who should always have an extreme advantage in snap aggro ) or Warriors ( who should always be the least risky from a "heals required over time" perspective )

2) Effective group offtank, in situations where snap aggro is not required at all ( for example, holding the second mob in a two pull long enough for the real tank to grab it or other CC to handle it )

3) Situationally best raid puller ( though those situations need to be far more frequent )

4) Very competitive with Bards as group pullers ( since we have none of their other utility )

5) Best DPS from any angle. Bring back Rip-Riposte ( with riposte immunity while not tanking and extra damage in a counter riposte to make up for being dodged/blocked ).

6) Widen the DPS gap between Monks and Warriors. They should have a clear advantage while tanking, we should have a clear advantage while DPSing. We should both be able to overcome the advantage of the other with gear superiority, but it should be like a two tier advantage before it becomes noticable.

While group utility would be kind of nice ( group mend, mend other, mana regen, health regen, group atk buff ), it kind of flies in the face of the monk class definition, in my opinion.

We've always been about making sure we survive first ( or die alone ).

Our preferred way of "helping" others has always been to beat the bastage down before it can hurt them.

I'd say:

More DPS to put us back in the middle of Warrior and Rogue DPS at most/all gear levels. A Ranger with a Bazaar bought bow should not be out-DPS'ing a REBB equipped Monk at 65 for instance, and at L62 a BL shouldn't be doing more DPS then a comparably equipped Monk. A Warrior at all levels should need a significant gear advantage before they even come close to our DPS, as it is now at certain gear levels they can pull even/ahead with even small weapon advantages, and there are more gear points where Warrior DPS is relatively close to a Monk then there are gear points where Monks are significantly ahead of Warriors. Rogue DPS is fine, I like Rogue DPS. Just put us closer to them and further ahead of Tank classes.

More mitigation, if it was just a huge boost while attack was off I'd be fine with that. But just giving us our old mitigation only while pulling would be lame, either a significant mitigation bonus while pulling or our old mitigation back for all situations. I don't care as much about tanking/offtanking, I'd like to be able to survive a pull if I have something respawn on top of my head, rather then getting stunned and slaughtered sometimes. Along with this, some kind of stun immunity would be very nice, or maybe like a reverse Ogre trait, where we couldn't be stunned from behind. Making us completely unstunnable is not justifiable, but it's stupid when greenies can repeatedly stun me on pulls, let alone EXP MOB's. Yes I know MOB's stun other classes too, but since the Monk class is supposed to have pulling as a role, an advantage other then FD I don't think is unreasonable. Most of the people I hear make fun of Monks in OOC is because they just watched the Monk die yet again on a pull, usually because he got rawped while he was stunned.

Reduced Imitate Death times, or just make it re-usable immediately. Bards are limited on how often they use it by mana, I'm fine with Monks being limited by Endurance. It's a cool skill and it can be very handy, but the refresh is so long it's not something that really helps with regular pulling. I've ID'ed before, only to have another see-invis roamer walk by, now I'm down for another 2 mins until I lose him since I can't ID again.

Reduced time on our offensive discs so we could use them more regularly. Thunderkick is a decent refresh time, but the DPS boost doesn't seem to be as high as I would like to see. Also *maybe* some kind of gather mana/Canni type spell that would let us convert HP to Endurance to go along with this? Other classes get Canni/Lich/Gather Mana/Yalp/etc., while it's a different type of idea, I'm not sure it would be completely unbalancing. We can focus our minds to mend our bodies, why not our endurance?

As far as the pulling part, making our L69 Lull pacify like our lower level one would be nice. I don't see SOE really fixing the pulling part of our role though, they would have to revamp MOB spawn points in every zone to really implement this correctly, and that's a somewhat unreasonable request

here is link:

http://p201.ezboard.com/fmonklybusiness43508frm1.showMessage?topicID=48088.topic

____________________________
the only hard day was : yesterday
RE: monks
# Jan 10 2005 at 12:43 PM Rating: Default
Edit.

Edited, Nov 5th 2011 12:17am by KGBSpectre
RE: monks
# Jan 09 2005 at 2:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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75 posts
I agree with most of what you say, but a few points:

Monk class is not, and never was, supposed to have pulling as a role. It just happened to work out that way with FD. But since that happened, SOE has kind of nurtured it a little, hence the Phantom line of lull disciplines. So if they want to make us pullers, then fine, but please make us good at it. Mitigation comes into play here and while I think monks need more of it, maybe not as much as many monks would want. I think that mitigation from behind idea is really good: Helps the pulling but does not make us viable tanks, which is how it should be. And going back to the Phantom disciplines, the new one would be just fine ... if mobs were not immune to it all the time, making it useless in many situations where you really need it and obsolete in situations where you could do without it.

I think a group regen/mana regen/whatever boost is a bad move. It seems like almost every class has some kind of mana regen already (and those that don't have it, want it). Giving this to monks would just make them one of many, rather than give them a unique role, which is the point of this new SOE review thingy. Group mend is also a little risky...but maybe a single-target one.

As far as add-tank goes, I think we already have it. If you are smart in the way you use Earthwalk discipline and don't waste it, you'll have it available when you get adds. Pop Earthwalk and give your crowd control 12 seconds (more if you have mend up) to take care of it.

I agree, DPS needs a big improvement. Even leaving DPS as it is and giving monks an immunity to riposte and maybe innate strikethrough (so we can hit from the front and still live/be effective) would do the trick. But Flying Kick needs to be increased, that skill is pathetic sometimes, especially Thunder Kick discipline, that thing is a joke when you hit for minimum damage half the time, and barely ever get a good solid 200-300 dmg kick in there.

Lets just remember that at the moment the monk has two roles: DPS and Pulling. I'm fine with these roles, but please make monks competitive and/or unique in the way they accomplish them; because right now, the attitude toward monks in the group environment is:

Group member 1: There is a magician and a monk LFG, which one should we get to fill our last spot?"

Group member 2: Magician, mod rods would be nice and my pet needs some toys. Good DPS too. Our (enchanter/bard/ranger/SK/necro) can pull.

General idea here: Monks don't contribute anything unique and/or effective to the group.

More Coffee Please?
# Jan 08 2005 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
Whenever SoE talks about re-visiting class balance; They are really saying, More coffee please.
All it really amounts to is sitting around, drinking coffee and shooting the breeze.
Nothing will come of it, so don't be having wishful thoughts or start flame wars.....
RE: More Coffee Please?
# Jan 09 2005 at 7:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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75 posts
If I was a developer and this was the kind of support and feedback I got from the player base, I would order more coffee too.
RE: More Coffee Please?
# Jan 09 2005 at 12:33 PM Rating: Default
I agree with you Auricas. I'm playing mostly EQ2 now and after a huge patch fixing all kinds of things. The first thing I hear in /ooc is whining about something else they don't like. I say major kudos to the CSR's that can sit in the chat rooms all day too. I can't stand the people in there for 5 minutes without putting half the people on ignore. They for real work thier butts off to fix problems and all people do is move on and find something else to whine about with not even so much as a thank you. To the players described here: quit playing so you stop whining. To the developers, IT folks, hardware people, GM's, CSR's and anyone else there, from those of us who understand that not everything will work perfectly: Thank you for doing your best to keep this game and others running.
RE: More Coffee Please?
# Jan 15 2005 at 3:14 PM Rating: Decent
Well it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that all of the whiners that were in EQ1 and really upset, went to EQ2. They are master whiners. What did you expect? Decent people?

Edited, Sat Jan 15 15:14:38 2005
RE: More Coffee Please?
# Jan 09 2005 at 10:59 PM Rating: Decent
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308 posts
While I agree with you about whiners, I tend to see their point a little bit. I for one am tired of paying 50+ dollars for games that are no better than a late beta. (examples: early EQ2, Lineage II, CounterStrike Source, Star Wars Galaxies). It seems like every time we get a patch done in EQ1, there is a whole ost of new problems to contend with. How long did the Magician spell Summon (type) Bauble say 'lessens the casting cost of <i>healing</i> spells' as opposed to damage spells, like it was supposed to? I know a number of high level mages that brought this up using the /feedback command, and it took about two years to get fixed.

While I keep my ******* and complaints away from /ooc and the in-game channels, I do feel as though we're paying to play an ongoing beta.
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