Hey all,
I put together an online search to help players find a new MMORPG based on features they want in a game (PvP, PVE gameplay, Character customizaion, etc). If you have time, take a look HERE.
I am trying to gather information on crafting in many MMORPGs and this , more than any other, has been difficult to compare one game to the next. It is my hope that I will eventually be able to offer players to search for MMORPGs that have good crafting.
My question to you, what do you like/look for in a MMORPG crafting. What do you like about WoW's crafting system and what dont you like about it.
Thanks for you help
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Trade Skills
- How would you rank WoW Crafting vs other MMORPGs?
How would you rank WoW Crafting vs other MMORPGs?Follow
Although I didn't click the link (didn't like the look of "Finder" in it tbh..)
I'm rather fond of WoW's crafting compared to other games i've played.
it's a LOT easier to use than FFXI's was, and pretty much everyone can (and should) be involved with it, other than some flaws (trading mats to someone so they canscam craft for you)
I'd give it a 8/10 anyway
I'm rather fond of WoW's crafting compared to other games i've played.
it's a LOT easier to use than FFXI's was, and pretty much everyone can (and should) be involved with it, other than some flaws (trading mats to someone so they can
I'd give it a 8/10 anyway
Only other MMORPG I ever played was Ultima Online, but WOW beats that system hands down.
UO was kinda cool just because it felt more like you were crafting (you had to make an effort - you didn't just happen upon things while questing.. not that there were any quests anyways) and there was a wide assortment of things you could make (you could have all/most of the professions, not just two) but the 'failure rate' really sucked. You always had the chance (scaling with the difficulty of the thing you're making) of losing the item and the materials. So there was a lot of frustration and grinding involved.
Blacksmithing was was especially tricky as the ore weighed a lot (almost impossible to do without a pack horse), it got smaller when smelted (with the failure rate, it was easily possible to lose the whole stack) and the nodes were always mined out (which you couldn't know until you actually stuck a pick in the ground).
The AH on WOW is godly. The best thing they ever added to the game because it actually enables an economy.
The trade window is another awesome invention. In UO, I don't think I ever traded directly with another person as it basically consisted of you giving them something and hoping you got something in return. Then they'd cheat you and walk around and taunt you :/
UO was kinda cool just because it felt more like you were crafting (you had to make an effort - you didn't just happen upon things while questing.. not that there were any quests anyways) and there was a wide assortment of things you could make (you could have all/most of the professions, not just two) but the 'failure rate' really sucked. You always had the chance (scaling with the difficulty of the thing you're making) of losing the item and the materials. So there was a lot of frustration and grinding involved.
Blacksmithing was was especially tricky as the ore weighed a lot (almost impossible to do without a pack horse), it got smaller when smelted (with the failure rate, it was easily possible to lose the whole stack) and the nodes were always mined out (which you couldn't know until you actually stuck a pick in the ground).
The AH on WOW is godly. The best thing they ever added to the game because it actually enables an economy.
The trade window is another awesome invention. In UO, I don't think I ever traded directly with another person as it basically consisted of you giving them something and hoping you got something in return. Then they'd cheat you and walk around and taunt you :/
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better than FFXI
I like the crafting in WoW, much better than Vanguard (and better than the almost non-existent in Guild Wars).
It makes it easy to understand, while it would be nice that items would either just give a skillup or not, that isn't something worth quibbling over, they nailed it pretty well with the way that it works out.
It makes it easy to understand, while it would be nice that items would either just give a skillup or not, that isn't something worth quibbling over, they nailed it pretty well with the way that it works out.
Thanks for the replies all,
Zelrin, I didnt think the name of the page being 'Finder' would be worrisome, but after seeing some of my closest guildmates have their accounts hacked, I completly understand.
Back to the crafting issue. Based on the above responses, it seems that what makes people like crafting is the Ease. is this true for everyone? What about personalization of the items? Are failure rates a bad thing or considered a neccesary evil?
Also, keep that list of other games you thought had bad crafting...any games players think had an exceptional crafting system? and if so, why.
Thanks
Torrential
Edited, Mar 21st 2008 2:30pm by Czzarre
Zelrin, I didnt think the name of the page being 'Finder' would be worrisome, but after seeing some of my closest guildmates have their accounts hacked, I completly understand.
Back to the crafting issue. Based on the above responses, it seems that what makes people like crafting is the Ease. is this true for everyone? What about personalization of the items? Are failure rates a bad thing or considered a neccesary evil?
Also, keep that list of other games you thought had bad crafting...any games players think had an exceptional crafting system? and if so, why.
Thanks
Torrential
Edited, Mar 21st 2008 2:30pm by Czzarre
To be perfectly honest, I liked FFXI's crafting system better (I liked the AH system better as well, but that's another story). There are parts of WoW's system that win; for example, you can't fail, and not every synthesis/craft requires an expendable (but expensive) item (ie, crystals). However, crafting in WoW is too easy, has no barriers to entry (besides the limit of 2 crafts per character), and makes vastly inferior products.
In FFXI, the items came from either crafting (especially rare recipes or lucky high quality gear, "+1s" as they were called) or from heavily over-camped monsters. In WoW it comes from difficult bosses or quests. Crafting gear is there only as filler. In FFXI, crafting was THE way to get good gear.
Now, that doesn't address many of the major problems with the other game, but the crafting system was available to lower level characters, and if you were skillful enough and patient enough, you could make good money, especially off cooking. That's one thing WoW lacks; short of one or two recipes on the way up to 350+, crafting will not make you money. In FFXI, at any given level, you had a variety of recipes that would net you cash, or be directly useful to you.
WoW's craft system was put in place simply as place-holder items until you get better quest/instance gear. Blizzard has stated it many times. I don't like that view, and that's why I find WoW's craft system inferior.
In FFXI, the items came from either crafting (especially rare recipes or lucky high quality gear, "+1s" as they were called) or from heavily over-camped monsters. In WoW it comes from difficult bosses or quests. Crafting gear is there only as filler. In FFXI, crafting was THE way to get good gear.
Now, that doesn't address many of the major problems with the other game, but the crafting system was available to lower level characters, and if you were skillful enough and patient enough, you could make good money, especially off cooking. That's one thing WoW lacks; short of one or two recipes on the way up to 350+, crafting will not make you money. In FFXI, at any given level, you had a variety of recipes that would net you cash, or be directly useful to you.
WoW's craft system was put in place simply as place-holder items until you get better quest/instance gear. Blizzard has stated it many times. I don't like that view, and that's why I find WoW's craft system inferior.
LockeColeMA wrote:
Now, that doesn't address many of the major problems with the other game, but the crafting system was available to lower level characters, and if you were skillful enough and patient enough, you could make good money, especially off cooking. That's one thing WoW lacks; short of one or two recipes on the way up to 350+, crafting will not make you money. In FFXI, at any given level, you had a variety of recipes that would net you cash, or be directly useful to you.
I agree. but there is a rationale behind not making crafting profitable. If it was profitable, every gold-seller would rejoice, because not everyone knows how to make enough gold to purchase neat craftable items. They would sell gold to the people buying the items, and the sellers would raise the price because of demand. There would be an inevitable cycle of inflation, and the only winners would be the RMT providers. Does this make the WoW system better? No. Does it make it broken? Yeah, a little. The real problem is lack of useful items, rather than lack of profitable ones. When the drops are better than what you can make, you don't really want to make them. Perhaps what WoW needs is more low-level BoP recipes with a better profession experience for making them
Quote:
Zelrin, I didnt think the name of the page being 'Finder' would be worrisome, but after seeing some of my closest guildmates have their accounts hacked, I completly understand.
That's just me being Paranoid :P couldn't quite tell if i trusted it or not.
Anyway, another thing I like about WoW's crafting is that whenever you make an item it says "Made by *name*" on it, to get this on FFXI you had to use a special crystal, which werent terribly easy to get hold of, and you could only "sign" items when it was really special to make it (for a friend etc.)
Also crafting on WoW is a lot more than just a way of making money, as some of the soulbound items can change the way you play a character, my rogue can make her own grenades and bombs, while my jewelcrafter can make more powerful sockets.
EDIT: your gamefinder seems rather interesting now that i've visited the site, might see what it suggests forme and try it out during maintenance, cheers.
Edited, Mar 22nd 2008 1:24am by zelrin
I have tradeskilled on both WOW and Everquest.
Here are my thoughts:
Number one: Everquest required a LOT more clicking to do each individual crafting attempt. This was cool the first 5 things I made. But after attempt 6 the extra clicking was just annoying.
Number two: WOW Blacksmithing - from levels 1-65 crafted items were good items. My warrior wore anywhere from 2 to 6 smithed items almost the whole time. Plus I made sharpening stones which increased my dps every step of the way. I'll give WOW blacksmithing, levels 1-65, an A+. WOW blacksmithing levels 66-70 well I spent the money to get my smithing to 375 but it was basically 1200 gold spent just to say I am at 375. Call this a D-. Everquest blacksmithing was mostly a waste of time. Also a D-.
Actually Everquest blacksmithing I would have to put even worse than that and just plain call it an F. Lots of work with nothing to show for it other than a skill level.
Number three: Alchemy - alchemy has been good for all levels. I have a horde toon and an alliance toon with alchemy at 375 for one and 370 for another. Its just a plain solid craft with nothing extraordinary to brag about, but the elixirs add a solid bonus that scale reasonably well throughout levels 1-70. Plus at level 70 making Super Mana Potions and other potions and elixirs makes me a decent amount of cash.
Alchemy beats out anything on Everquest by far. It is easier than WOW blacksmithing, but the rewards are less (well for levels 1-65 blacksmithing was MUCH more valuable then alchemy, especially when I equipped crafted weapons, which I did for a while).
What makes crafting good: you put "X" amount of time and effort into it, and you get products that make things easier by "Y". When Y is greater than X then crafting is just plain cool. Easy crafts should yield small rewards, hard crafts should yield better rewards.
Everquest did mostly a lousy job. Everquest's mudflation increased the power of the items people wore, but the trade skills were mostly not upgraded to take this into account. Thus items that you could craft might be "uber" for a certain level in 2003. But in 2004 this same item would be "good", in 2005 "mediocre", and in 2006 it would just be a subpar item.
WOW has done mostly a good job. I have spent a LOT of time crafting in WOW and mostly I am happy with what I have made. I would like to see WOW add a lot of new crafting quests, items, and products to make (I like crafting). I would also like WOW to add recipes for more powerful items at each level range (with moderately difficult mats, not you-have-to-have-a-higher-level-main-to-get-them set of mats). But even if they don't, the trade skills that are already in place are a solid part of WOW's success.
Here are my thoughts:
Number one: Everquest required a LOT more clicking to do each individual crafting attempt. This was cool the first 5 things I made. But after attempt 6 the extra clicking was just annoying.
Number two: WOW Blacksmithing - from levels 1-65 crafted items were good items. My warrior wore anywhere from 2 to 6 smithed items almost the whole time. Plus I made sharpening stones which increased my dps every step of the way. I'll give WOW blacksmithing, levels 1-65, an A+. WOW blacksmithing levels 66-70 well I spent the money to get my smithing to 375 but it was basically 1200 gold spent just to say I am at 375. Call this a D-. Everquest blacksmithing was mostly a waste of time. Also a D-.
Actually Everquest blacksmithing I would have to put even worse than that and just plain call it an F. Lots of work with nothing to show for it other than a skill level.
Number three: Alchemy - alchemy has been good for all levels. I have a horde toon and an alliance toon with alchemy at 375 for one and 370 for another. Its just a plain solid craft with nothing extraordinary to brag about, but the elixirs add a solid bonus that scale reasonably well throughout levels 1-70. Plus at level 70 making Super Mana Potions and other potions and elixirs makes me a decent amount of cash.
Alchemy beats out anything on Everquest by far. It is easier than WOW blacksmithing, but the rewards are less (well for levels 1-65 blacksmithing was MUCH more valuable then alchemy, especially when I equipped crafted weapons, which I did for a while).
What makes crafting good: you put "X" amount of time and effort into it, and you get products that make things easier by "Y". When Y is greater than X then crafting is just plain cool. Easy crafts should yield small rewards, hard crafts should yield better rewards.
Everquest did mostly a lousy job. Everquest's mudflation increased the power of the items people wore, but the trade skills were mostly not upgraded to take this into account. Thus items that you could craft might be "uber" for a certain level in 2003. But in 2004 this same item would be "good", in 2005 "mediocre", and in 2006 it would just be a subpar item.
WOW has done mostly a good job. I have spent a LOT of time crafting in WOW and mostly I am happy with what I have made. I would like to see WOW add a lot of new crafting quests, items, and products to make (I like crafting). I would also like WOW to add recipes for more powerful items at each level range (with moderately difficult mats, not you-have-to-have-a-higher-level-main-to-get-them set of mats). But even if they don't, the trade skills that are already in place are a solid part of WOW's success.
The first time i took up alchemy i took one look at the fact that potions use glass and thought
****, how many are going to be destroyed
But non were. and i found out that WoW doesnt have any BREAKAGE system at all.
Wonders of wonders! My super loot wont disapear if i try to augment or upgrade it!
cause most of the last games i playedw ere like this
http://kiwichanstudios.com/alex/artcomic/phantasystar.html
cept i didnt get to smash the vendors head across the shop.
WoW is simple, you get items, Many ways to get items and no specific order of getting them, theres not so many areas you have to be to make someting and hteir ussually together [forge, anvil, alchemy lab]. Its actually sorta interesting getting the mats most of the time and you can keep stuff around if you ever need to make some item with the mats. Theres a network of mats that apply to different things in a different combination, and sometimes you get a reagent which is a bit unique to find
but thats still better than hoping you get to the source [low spawn rate] of a unique, rare to drop reagent amongst a myriad of reagents, then take the mats to different locations in all sortsa areas to make it in stages and in the end thres a chance it can fail. Not to mention the fact it can fail and be destroyed anyway when you try to improve it.
****, how many are going to be destroyed
But non were. and i found out that WoW doesnt have any BREAKAGE system at all.
Wonders of wonders! My super loot wont disapear if i try to augment or upgrade it!
cause most of the last games i playedw ere like this
http://kiwichanstudios.com/alex/artcomic/phantasystar.html
cept i didnt get to smash the vendors head across the shop.
WoW is simple, you get items, Many ways to get items and no specific order of getting them, theres not so many areas you have to be to make someting and hteir ussually together [forge, anvil, alchemy lab]. Its actually sorta interesting getting the mats most of the time and you can keep stuff around if you ever need to make some item with the mats. Theres a network of mats that apply to different things in a different combination, and sometimes you get a reagent which is a bit unique to find
but thats still better than hoping you get to the source [low spawn rate] of a unique, rare to drop reagent amongst a myriad of reagents, then take the mats to different locations in all sortsa areas to make it in stages and in the end thres a chance it can fail. Not to mention the fact it can fail and be destroyed anyway when you try to improve it.
Thanks for the input guys. Any other experiences, please let me know.
Anyone know of an article or section dealing specifically with MMORPG Crafting?
Torrential
Anyone know of an article or section dealing specifically with MMORPG Crafting?
Torrential
ohmikeghod wrote:
The real problem is lack of useful items, rather than lack of profitable ones. When the drops are better than what you can make, you don't really want to make them. Perhaps what WoW needs is more low-level BoP recipes with a better profession experience for making them
Yeah. I never actually wore any of the 964598252323845 robes/boots/whatevers I made while leveling tailoring until 355+ when the BoP epics became available. There was just no reason before that as instance blues, and even quest greens and random drops were always miles ahead of anything I could craft. It would be awesome if bliz added more lower level patterns that were actually good for their level.
I've think at this point the most useful professions while leveling are the ones that make consumables rather than equipment. From the very low levels my warrior got a lot of use out of all the bombs, bullets, target dummies, etc I made leveling engineering, while my warlock never used a single tailoring item until frozen shadoweave.
75 Rabbit/75 Sheep/75 Coeurl/75 Eft/75 Raptor/75 Hippogryph/75 Puk
75 Scorpion/75 Wamoura/75 Pixie/75 Peiste/64 Sabotender
51 Bird/41 Mandragora/40 Bee/37 Crawler/37 Bat
Items no one cares about: O
Missions no one cares about: O
Crafts no one cares about: O
75 Scorpion/75 Wamoura/75 Pixie/75 Peiste/64 Sabotender
51 Bird/41 Mandragora/40 Bee/37 Crawler/37 Bat
Items no one cares about: O
Missions no one cares about: O
Crafts no one cares about: O
Basically the reasons WOW's crafting succeeds where other games don't:
1. Enough useful items to be worthwhile. As long as you keep your tradeskill leveled alongside your character you'll end up with a reasonable amount of useful items.
2. Few "parts"; plentiful "finished products". This was one of the blander parts of Pirates of the Burning Sea's crafting system - you had a ton of parts to construct before you ever saw a finished product. A byproduct of having lots of parts was that it was really damn hard to tell what the purpose of each part was (although this could've been offset by a better interface which actually showed the paths a good can take.)
3. No failure/skill variance. I've heard there's a game (FFOnline?) where your crafting skill has an impact on the quality of the good, which sounded like it totally screwed over the ability of a mid-level player to make a reasonable profit on his mid-level goods (because a highbie could just stomp all over his quality). Other games completely eat up your playtime through crafting Failure, and it's almost never fun to have a game randomly set you back a bunch of gametime.
4. Endgame utility. Basically the idea that if you're in Tier X content, you should be getting recipes from that content (or that use materials found only in that content) which produces better-than-Tier-X quality gear; gear which provides some sort of unique, desireable advantage to your character. WOW hasn't nailed thic concept yet (because I get the impression the basic epic crafted sets often perform at Tier 5 or better even though you can get them before Tier 4 content.) but they've certainly done better than they have in the past.
1. Enough useful items to be worthwhile. As long as you keep your tradeskill leveled alongside your character you'll end up with a reasonable amount of useful items.
2. Few "parts"; plentiful "finished products". This was one of the blander parts of Pirates of the Burning Sea's crafting system - you had a ton of parts to construct before you ever saw a finished product. A byproduct of having lots of parts was that it was really damn hard to tell what the purpose of each part was (although this could've been offset by a better interface which actually showed the paths a good can take.)
3. No failure/skill variance. I've heard there's a game (FFOnline?) where your crafting skill has an impact on the quality of the good, which sounded like it totally screwed over the ability of a mid-level player to make a reasonable profit on his mid-level goods (because a highbie could just stomp all over his quality). Other games completely eat up your playtime through crafting Failure, and it's almost never fun to have a game randomly set you back a bunch of gametime.
4. Endgame utility. Basically the idea that if you're in Tier X content, you should be getting recipes from that content (or that use materials found only in that content) which produces better-than-Tier-X quality gear; gear which provides some sort of unique, desireable advantage to your character. WOW hasn't nailed thic concept yet (because I get the impression the basic epic crafted sets often perform at Tier 5 or better even though you can get them before Tier 4 content.) but they've certainly done better than they have in the past.
I have only played FFXI and WoW.
I personaly liked the challenge of FFXI better and the fact you could just craft all the time an didn't have to level to get higher in the skill. I thought crafting was funner than leveling. The fact you could fail and loose your damascus ingot or something stupid like that that you spent days earning enough for added a lot to fear when crafting. Then seeing it HQ and getting a rare +1 made me extremely excited, jumping up and down. I also liked seeing the animation of crafting an HQ item vs regular item. I also loved the desythesis of items. I would say the average MMO player would find this system to be frustrating and too time consuming.
You can shard items in WoW which is pretty cool but you must be an enchanter and the mats are mostly used to add stats to gear. I would say enchanting is my favorite profession so far. I am not a huge fan of the progress bar but it is definately nicer than waiting for a hidden cooldown to fire before you can craft.
All in all I would say if you have more time and like investing a lot of effort into crafting and enjoy more of a challenge I would recommend the FFXI system. WoW makes things much easier if you have a life outside of the game and it is a system almost any player can pick up and level.
I personaly liked the challenge of FFXI better and the fact you could just craft all the time an didn't have to level to get higher in the skill. I thought crafting was funner than leveling. The fact you could fail and loose your damascus ingot or something stupid like that that you spent days earning enough for added a lot to fear when crafting. Then seeing it HQ and getting a rare +1 made me extremely excited, jumping up and down. I also liked seeing the animation of crafting an HQ item vs regular item. I also loved the desythesis of items. I would say the average MMO player would find this system to be frustrating and too time consuming.
You can shard items in WoW which is pretty cool but you must be an enchanter and the mats are mostly used to add stats to gear. I would say enchanting is my favorite profession so far. I am not a huge fan of the progress bar but it is definately nicer than waiting for a hidden cooldown to fire before you can craft.
All in all I would say if you have more time and like investing a lot of effort into crafting and enjoy more of a challenge I would recommend the FFXI system. WoW makes things much easier if you have a life outside of the game and it is a system almost any player can pick up and level.
FFX1 crafting was better than WoW crafting IMO. You actually had to work for it, it took a good amount of time to do, and you could actually feel accomplished when you were done. Breaking crystals/losing mats though? Baaaaad idea imo.
WoW crafting = not doing so until you have enough golds to powerlevel it, and spending a few hours actually getting it done. It took me a few hours to get alchemy to 375, and I helped my friend get clothcraft AND enchanting to 300 in one night.
Mike is right about goldsellers, but I would hate for a game to take a route less enjoyable for players because it'll make it "harder" for goldsellers to earn their living.
WoW crafting = not doing so until you have enough golds to powerlevel it, and spending a few hours actually getting it done. It took me a few hours to get alchemy to 375, and I helped my friend get clothcraft AND enchanting to 300 in one night.
Mike is right about goldsellers, but I would hate for a game to take a route less enjoyable for players because it'll make it "harder" for goldsellers to earn their living.
I've played FFXI, DDO and WoW. DDO didn't have any crafting system at the time (they might have added it by now) which truly stunk, and was one of the reasons I stopped playing that game.
One thing I hated about FFXI's system was that the failure rate of each item depended on the time of day and the direction you were facing. It took too many charts to keep straight.
I'm very glad that WoW doesn't have that nasty failure rate. Can you imagine someone giving you the mats to craft something and ending up with a failure? Oops, sorry, your mats are gone! That would absolutely ruin the possibility of low skill level crafters making a few gold or silvers (and hopefully a skillup) by crafting for others.
One thing I miss from FFXI is gardening. It would be nice if WoW players had the ability to grow some of their mats rather than having to quest for them. However the annoying thing about FFXI gardening was that if you didn't log on to feed your plants at the exact right time, your plants would die or give you sub-par yields. If your internet access went down or you had to go out of town unexpectedly you were out oodles of gold. (Okay, it might be realistic, but it was also a giant pain in the neck.)
Something I would like to see in WoW crafting is the ability for more professions to make consumable items. For example in tailoring the only consumable available is Netherweave Net (skill lvl 300).
I agree that the trade interface needs to be changed to allow more items in the "will not be traded" window, so that people can feel safer about someone not running off with their mats.
I also agree with the folks who say that you can't make truly sellable (for more than they cost you) items in WoW (in most professions, at least) until you're a much higher level. That's a flaw I wish Blizzard would clear up by offering more blue recipes at lower levels.
All in all, WoW crafting wins out over FFXI hands down.
One thing I hated about FFXI's system was that the failure rate of each item depended on the time of day and the direction you were facing. It took too many charts to keep straight.
I'm very glad that WoW doesn't have that nasty failure rate. Can you imagine someone giving you the mats to craft something and ending up with a failure? Oops, sorry, your mats are gone! That would absolutely ruin the possibility of low skill level crafters making a few gold or silvers (and hopefully a skillup) by crafting for others.
One thing I miss from FFXI is gardening. It would be nice if WoW players had the ability to grow some of their mats rather than having to quest for them. However the annoying thing about FFXI gardening was that if you didn't log on to feed your plants at the exact right time, your plants would die or give you sub-par yields. If your internet access went down or you had to go out of town unexpectedly you were out oodles of gold. (Okay, it might be realistic, but it was also a giant pain in the neck.)
Something I would like to see in WoW crafting is the ability for more professions to make consumable items. For example in tailoring the only consumable available is Netherweave Net (skill lvl 300).
I agree that the trade interface needs to be changed to allow more items in the "will not be traded" window, so that people can feel safer about someone not running off with their mats.
I also agree with the folks who say that you can't make truly sellable (for more than they cost you) items in WoW (in most professions, at least) until you're a much higher level. That's a flaw I wish Blizzard would clear up by offering more blue recipes at lower levels.
All in all, WoW crafting wins out over FFXI hands down.
My comparison is WoW and pre-CU SWG
Levelling: Relatively easy, still grind based though (if you do it smart, rather than with whatever you pick up at the time).
Output: Generally what you put in is what you get out, there are a few random items, but mostly items will come out exactly as they say they will. Which I guess is nice in a way (less chance of failure), but lacks a little in interest (if I have to make 20 identical bracers it might be more fun if some of them were really crap and one was awesome, rather than all being exactly the same).
Overall: It's functional, but not a major part of the game in my opinion. For certain class set-ups it's very good to have a crafting profession, but it's not actually a game in itself.
In SWG resources changed in quality, so one week the skin from one animal had really good stats and was highly sort after, the next week skin from the same animal might have poor stats, so no point in farming it at that time. This added a bit of variety into the gathering side of things.
With WoW whilst prices for resources might change the same leather will continue to be used in the same recipes and it will always be the same quality no matter when it was gathered or what from.
I would put SWG (before it was mutilated into a poor wow clone) as having a great crafting system (though my mmorpg experience is highly limited).
SWG crafting was very interdependant and 'deep', anyone could craft, but to really make a profession out of it took dedication - paying attention to which spawns were most popular, getting gear to increase your crafting capabilities or shopping around to find a good resource extracter and energy to power it. The crafting element was a game in itself and in my opinion a much more interesting one than the combat system.
But in SWG there was no other way to get gear or items. No loot drops worth writing home about and no npc vendor bought items. Creating a situation where crafting was a necessary part of the game. I'm not sure that would work so well in WoW which is very much based on minimising risk of failure and has so many other gear options in game. I wonder how many people would farm mats for their tailoring gear at a 45% success rate?
Anyway, nostalgic moment over. WoWs crafting system is functional, but for someone looking to make this a focal part of their game I wouldn't recommend it.
Personally I'd say the WoW crafting system could be improved by making more usable items. Most of the crafting is 'going through the motions' in order to get a few decent items. I think it would be nice if more of the items that you skilled up on would be usefull for their level.
Levelling: Relatively easy, still grind based though (if you do it smart, rather than with whatever you pick up at the time).
Output: Generally what you put in is what you get out, there are a few random items, but mostly items will come out exactly as they say they will. Which I guess is nice in a way (less chance of failure), but lacks a little in interest (if I have to make 20 identical bracers it might be more fun if some of them were really crap and one was awesome, rather than all being exactly the same).
Overall: It's functional, but not a major part of the game in my opinion. For certain class set-ups it's very good to have a crafting profession, but it's not actually a game in itself.
In SWG resources changed in quality, so one week the skin from one animal had really good stats and was highly sort after, the next week skin from the same animal might have poor stats, so no point in farming it at that time. This added a bit of variety into the gathering side of things.
With WoW whilst prices for resources might change the same leather will continue to be used in the same recipes and it will always be the same quality no matter when it was gathered or what from.
I would put SWG (before it was mutilated into a poor wow clone) as having a great crafting system (though my mmorpg experience is highly limited).
SWG crafting was very interdependant and 'deep', anyone could craft, but to really make a profession out of it took dedication - paying attention to which spawns were most popular, getting gear to increase your crafting capabilities or shopping around to find a good resource extracter and energy to power it. The crafting element was a game in itself and in my opinion a much more interesting one than the combat system.
But in SWG there was no other way to get gear or items. No loot drops worth writing home about and no npc vendor bought items. Creating a situation where crafting was a necessary part of the game. I'm not sure that would work so well in WoW which is very much based on minimising risk of failure and has so many other gear options in game. I wonder how many people would farm mats for their tailoring gear at a 45% success rate?
Anyway, nostalgic moment over. WoWs crafting system is functional, but for someone looking to make this a focal part of their game I wouldn't recommend it.
Personally I'd say the WoW crafting system could be improved by making more usable items. Most of the crafting is 'going through the motions' in order to get a few decent items. I think it would be nice if more of the items that you skilled up on would be usefull for their level.
In comparing World of Warcraft (WoW) to EverQuest (EQ), there are some things I like and dislike about each system.
Failures
In EQ, you always had a 5% chance of failing a combine, even a very trivial combine. When working with high-end tradeskill recipes, the failure rate could be high, which meant you might have to go through a lot of mats to get what you wanted. It was frustrating to fail a difficult combine that required expensive mats; however, it was a bit more realistic than WoW's system where you are guaranteed a success. In addition, a success leads to the sense of accomplishment you get in EQ (see below).
Sense of accomplishment
Maxing out your tradeskill(s) in EQ was a real sense of accomplishment, especially for the harder ones like tailoring and blacksmithing. The EQ developers stated they purposely made these more difficult to skillup than easier ones like Baking and Brewing. I don't have the same sense of accomplishment in WoW because skillups are so easy to get.
Multiple tradeskills
In EQ, your character can take up the seven major tradeskills (I didn't count fishing). Alchemy is restricted to Shamans, Poison making to Rogues, and Tinkering to the Gnome race. I like that one character can literally do it all, which reduces your dependence upon others and/or making alts.
Gathering
In WoW, gathering "professions" count against your limit of two. In order to maximize your character, you need to select two crafting professions and then either buy all your materials or level up an alternate character to farm for your main. I like the EQ system better where anyone can access the raw materials and then sell them on the bazaar (EQ equivalent of the Auction House).
Profession required to wear/use items
I don't like how the best crafted gear in WoW requires you to not only make, but also keep the skill to wear/use the item. This really pigeonholes certain classes if you want to maximize your character out at level 70 pre-raiding. For example, Priests really need to consider tailoring because some of the crafted only gear will last you through T5 raid content. In EQ, anyone could make items and then trade/sell them to others.
Consumables
I like how WoW uses tradeskills to make consumables to boost your character and/or group (e.g., alchemy elixirs/ potions, blacksmithing stones for weapons, leatherworking drums, engineering repair bots, enchanting oils, etc.).
Failures
In EQ, you always had a 5% chance of failing a combine, even a very trivial combine. When working with high-end tradeskill recipes, the failure rate could be high, which meant you might have to go through a lot of mats to get what you wanted. It was frustrating to fail a difficult combine that required expensive mats; however, it was a bit more realistic than WoW's system where you are guaranteed a success. In addition, a success leads to the sense of accomplishment you get in EQ (see below).
Sense of accomplishment
Maxing out your tradeskill(s) in EQ was a real sense of accomplishment, especially for the harder ones like tailoring and blacksmithing. The EQ developers stated they purposely made these more difficult to skillup than easier ones like Baking and Brewing. I don't have the same sense of accomplishment in WoW because skillups are so easy to get.
Multiple tradeskills
In EQ, your character can take up the seven major tradeskills (I didn't count fishing). Alchemy is restricted to Shamans, Poison making to Rogues, and Tinkering to the Gnome race. I like that one character can literally do it all, which reduces your dependence upon others and/or making alts.
Gathering
In WoW, gathering "professions" count against your limit of two. In order to maximize your character, you need to select two crafting professions and then either buy all your materials or level up an alternate character to farm for your main. I like the EQ system better where anyone can access the raw materials and then sell them on the bazaar (EQ equivalent of the Auction House).
Profession required to wear/use items
I don't like how the best crafted gear in WoW requires you to not only make, but also keep the skill to wear/use the item. This really pigeonholes certain classes if you want to maximize your character out at level 70 pre-raiding. For example, Priests really need to consider tailoring because some of the crafted only gear will last you through T5 raid content. In EQ, anyone could make items and then trade/sell them to others.
Consumables
I like how WoW uses tradeskills to make consumables to boost your character and/or group (e.g., alchemy elixirs/ potions, blacksmithing stones for weapons, leatherworking drums, engineering repair bots, enchanting oils, etc.).
I agree with you on most but
Its already been stated over the years through FF comparisons that one huge grind is not = fun. Wow gets you results for less. You use the professions to gain the sense of acomplishment when you bring down the last boss in a raid or an instance. That being said, wow is known to have a casual element in its game for inta gratification, while maintaining hardcore gaming aspects.
Wow crafting is a means to an end. A tool you use.
You dont really NEED to do it, its just one of the many things people choose to do, and that too ussually at end game. WoW's crafter system doesnt fit with EQ's raw mat avaibility. Iam not sure if its in EQ but farming nodes in WoW give more than just a raw mat that you may expect, theres a chance, depending on what it is, for something else like a gem or a seed that gives you temp 2000 life for a few secs. Plus the way the crafter system is made, NOT having the 2 proffesion limit matched with having gathering as individual proffesions will ***** up the economy and supply rates. Imagine trying to farm stuff which EVERYONE ELSE in the server can farm too, rather than just competing with a similar gatherer.
Blizz wanted to make stuff that would benefit only the people who took up a profession and went about skilling it up, whats wrong with that? Blizz doesnt want us to treat our proffesions as something expendable, people can easily power level through all the proffesions and get the best items then.
Now its not that you dont have a good point in each one. But WoW has a system with certain needs that would have not been met and not gone well had parts of it been like other games. The good points people mention here abot WoW crafting are surported by the exact things they mention as dislikes about the system.
Edited, Mar 28th 2008 7:21am by Tenjen
Edited, Mar 28th 2008 7:25am by Tenjen
Quote:
Sense of accomplishment
Maxing out your tradeskill(s) in EQ was a real sense of accomplishment, especially for the harder ones like tailoring and blacksmithing. The EQ developers stated they purposely made these more difficult to skillup than easier ones like Baking and Brewing. I don't have the same sense of accomplishment in WoW because skillups are so easy to get.
Maxing out your tradeskill(s) in EQ was a real sense of accomplishment, especially for the harder ones like tailoring and blacksmithing. The EQ developers stated they purposely made these more difficult to skillup than easier ones like Baking and Brewing. I don't have the same sense of accomplishment in WoW because skillups are so easy to get.
Its already been stated over the years through FF comparisons that one huge grind is not = fun. Wow gets you results for less. You use the professions to gain the sense of acomplishment when you bring down the last boss in a raid or an instance. That being said, wow is known to have a casual element in its game for inta gratification, while maintaining hardcore gaming aspects.
Wow crafting is a means to an end. A tool you use.
Quote:
Gathering
In WoW, gathering "professions" count against your limit of two. In order to maximize your character, you need to select two crafting professions and then either buy all your materials or level up an alternate character to farm for your main. I like the EQ system better where anyone can access the raw materials and then sell them on the bazaar (EQ equivalent of the Auction House).
In WoW, gathering "professions" count against your limit of two. In order to maximize your character, you need to select two crafting professions and then either buy all your materials or level up an alternate character to farm for your main. I like the EQ system better where anyone can access the raw materials and then sell them on the bazaar (EQ equivalent of the Auction House).
You dont really NEED to do it, its just one of the many things people choose to do, and that too ussually at end game. WoW's crafter system doesnt fit with EQ's raw mat avaibility. Iam not sure if its in EQ but farming nodes in WoW give more than just a raw mat that you may expect, theres a chance, depending on what it is, for something else like a gem or a seed that gives you temp 2000 life for a few secs. Plus the way the crafter system is made, NOT having the 2 proffesion limit matched with having gathering as individual proffesions will ***** up the economy and supply rates. Imagine trying to farm stuff which EVERYONE ELSE in the server can farm too, rather than just competing with a similar gatherer.
Quote:
Profession required to wear/use items
I don't like how the best crafted gear in WoW requires you to not only make, but also keep the skill to wear/use the item. This really pigeonholes certain classes if you want to maximize your character out at level 70 pre-raiding. For example, Priests really need to consider tailoring because some of the crafted only gear will last you through T5 raid content. In EQ, anyone could make items and then trade/sell them to others.
I don't like how the best crafted gear in WoW requires you to not only make, but also keep the skill to wear/use the item. This really pigeonholes certain classes if you want to maximize your character out at level 70 pre-raiding. For example, Priests really need to consider tailoring because some of the crafted only gear will last you through T5 raid content. In EQ, anyone could make items and then trade/sell them to others.
Blizz wanted to make stuff that would benefit only the people who took up a profession and went about skilling it up, whats wrong with that? Blizz doesnt want us to treat our proffesions as something expendable, people can easily power level through all the proffesions and get the best items then.
Now its not that you dont have a good point in each one. But WoW has a system with certain needs that would have not been met and not gone well had parts of it been like other games. The good points people mention here abot WoW crafting are surported by the exact things they mention as dislikes about the system.
Edited, Mar 28th 2008 7:21am by Tenjen
Edited, Mar 28th 2008 7:25am by Tenjen
the only other MMO i played and did Crafting in was FFXI.
FFXI vs WoW crafts. . .
-Anyone can do any of the crafts. You can do multi crafts.
-You can have 2 crafts at 100. One of the "normal" ones and Fishing.
-"Gathering" takes no "skill". You just go and kill/farm if you want them for free.
-Skilling up a craft was easy, until the mid level where it slowed way down.
**I'm still new in WoW, my crafting is pretty low on all my toons (under 200)**
-Any one can pick up any crafts, but some races seem to do them better. . . My tauren does herbalism. Why? 15+ skill, why waste that?
- "Gather" is considered a "craft"
-You can only have 2 of the main professions
-Cooking, Fishing, and 1stAid are not counted as a primary craft. So you can do all 3 and still have to mains.
-Skill ups. Pretty easy if you make/gather the right thing.
It is really hard to compare anything FFXI vs WoW because they are two different games.
I liked FFXI's craft system more. Only because I was that person who did a little of everything.
If I got tired of killing sheep for skin to make Wool, I could go buy some pickaxes and go mining.
Use the ores and smelt them into ingots. Use ingots to make something to sell.
When that got boring I could go cut trees down.
But I'm still new to WoW's craft system, maybe it will get better/funnier.
FFXI vs WoW crafts. . .
- FFXI
-Anyone can do any of the crafts. You can do multi crafts.
-You can have 2 crafts at 100. One of the "normal" ones and Fishing.
-"Gathering" takes no "skill". You just go and kill/farm if you want them for free.
-Skilling up a craft was easy, until the mid level where it slowed way down.
**I'm still new in WoW, my crafting is pretty low on all my toons (under 200)**
- WoW
-Any one can pick up any crafts, but some races seem to do them better. . . My tauren does herbalism. Why? 15+ skill, why waste that?
- "Gather" is considered a "craft"
-You can only have 2 of the main professions
-Cooking, Fishing, and 1stAid are not counted as a primary craft. So you can do all 3 and still have to mains.
-Skill ups. Pretty easy if you make/gather the right thing.
It is really hard to compare anything FFXI vs WoW because they are two different games.
I liked FFXI's craft system more. Only because I was that person who did a little of everything.
If I got tired of killing sheep for skin to make Wool, I could go buy some pickaxes and go mining.
Use the ores and smelt them into ingots. Use ingots to make something to sell.
When that got boring I could go cut trees down.
But I'm still new to WoW's craft system, maybe it will get better/funnier.
I've done WoW and EQ -
WoW - no loss of mats when combine fails
EQ - loss of mats when combine fails
WoW - predictable skill ups
EQ - non-predictable
WoW - very few sub-combines
EQ - massive sub-combines
All said, WoW is far more userfriendly for tradeskills then EQ.
WoW - no loss of mats when combine fails
EQ - loss of mats when combine fails
WoW - predictable skill ups
EQ - non-predictable
WoW - very few sub-combines
EQ - massive sub-combines
All said, WoW is far more userfriendly for tradeskills then EQ.
I have to be honest, I am extremely surprised at how many people are for the FFXI crafting system!
I thought it was the most awful thing ever invented lol. I played FFXI for about 4 years. From NA release to a little while back when I stopped(haven't canceled yet. good friends ya know ^^). During that time the highest I got was lvl 65 woodworking and lvl 65 alchemy. 1-50 can be ok if you know the exact right synths and the best possible way to buy/farm the mats. After lvl 50 your skill up rate drops by 50%!!! Otherwise it's almost 100% loss just to skill up. A lot of times it's almost that much loss regardless of how you look at it. You could justify it by saying you farmed 100% of the mats so you weren't losing money but you had to pretty much throw the item away after synthing it. NPCs in FFXI give horrible cash for items sold to them. you could take the greatest weapon in the game and get the equivalent of 1g lol. But you can also look at that situation and just sell the mats you farmed and actually make a good living. That was my craft skill, farming, lol.
I am glad that people were masochistic enough to cap a craft skill though. Some items were needed and that was the only way to acquire them. But, most people I knew only skilled crafts as a small time hobby. A lot just laughed at it too. I did lol. The number of recipe in the game that are absolutely useless is insane. People lvl'd up a few different crafts to make a handful of recipe/patterns. That was it. The rest was garbage. Unbelievable garbage.
FFXI is a great game but some things about WoW are so much better. I really enjoy being able to accomplish things on a more reasonable timetable than in FFXI. You can easily skill a trade while you lvl a toon and never have to stress over money. And it doesn't take years to get one specific item/drop/etc...
I thought it was the most awful thing ever invented lol. I played FFXI for about 4 years. From NA release to a little while back when I stopped(haven't canceled yet. good friends ya know ^^). During that time the highest I got was lvl 65 woodworking and lvl 65 alchemy. 1-50 can be ok if you know the exact right synths and the best possible way to buy/farm the mats. After lvl 50 your skill up rate drops by 50%!!! Otherwise it's almost 100% loss just to skill up. A lot of times it's almost that much loss regardless of how you look at it. You could justify it by saying you farmed 100% of the mats so you weren't losing money but you had to pretty much throw the item away after synthing it. NPCs in FFXI give horrible cash for items sold to them. you could take the greatest weapon in the game and get the equivalent of 1g lol. But you can also look at that situation and just sell the mats you farmed and actually make a good living. That was my craft skill, farming, lol.
I am glad that people were masochistic enough to cap a craft skill though. Some items were needed and that was the only way to acquire them. But, most people I knew only skilled crafts as a small time hobby. A lot just laughed at it too. I did lol. The number of recipe in the game that are absolutely useless is insane. People lvl'd up a few different crafts to make a handful of recipe/patterns. That was it. The rest was garbage. Unbelievable garbage.
FFXI is a great game but some things about WoW are so much better. I really enjoy being able to accomplish things on a more reasonable timetable than in FFXI. You can easily skill a trade while you lvl a toon and never have to stress over money. And it doesn't take years to get one specific item/drop/etc...
Shrubbry wrote:
The number of recipe in the game that are absolutely useless is insane. People lvl'd up a few different crafts to make a handful of recipe/patterns. That was it. The rest was garbage. Unbelievable garbage.
And this is different from WoW's how exactly? Go look through your pattern/schematic/formula/whatever list and tell me how many of those items you would actually use, and how many are trash.
One of the biggest differences between WoW's crafting system and FFXI's is that in FFXI you don't need to be max level to make money. For a while one of my main sources of FFXI income came from my level 20ish clothcraft skill. I just made and AHed linen cloth. I wasn't making millions or anything but I was turning a nice profit even with my low skill. 7-8k profit a stack may not be much but it turns into a good sum of money when you sell 10 stacks a day. Not bad for 20 minutes worth of crafting.
75 Rabbit/75 Sheep/75 Coeurl/75 Eft/75 Raptor/75 Hippogryph/75 Puk
75 Scorpion/75 Wamoura/75 Pixie/75 Peiste/64 Sabotender
51 Bird/41 Mandragora/40 Bee/37 Crawler/37 Bat
Items no one cares about: O
Missions no one cares about: O
Crafts no one cares about: O
75 Scorpion/75 Wamoura/75 Pixie/75 Peiste/64 Sabotender
51 Bird/41 Mandragora/40 Bee/37 Crawler/37 Bat
Items no one cares about: O
Missions no one cares about: O
Crafts no one cares about: O
Quote:
And this is different from WoW's how exactly? Go look through your pattern/schematic/formula/whatever list and tell me how many of those items you would actually use, and how many are trash.
You are absolutely correct. Tons of synths are useless in WoW as well. I was merely using this as another example to bash FFXI's system lol :P
And yes, one decent way to approach crafting in FFXI is to mass produce consumables and AH them. I did this with ammo when lvling woodworking. But the problem is when other people are crafting the same thing and the market gets flooded. This happens often too. Then you sit on stacks of product as you watch the price drop and drop till it's lower than what it cost to make them in the first place. The market in FFXI is so damn fickle.
Crafting in FFXI is definitely doable but a whole different beast than in WoW. In WoW anyone can do it. In FFXI it takes extreme dedication, patience, time, and in most cases tons of money. Anyone who has not played the game can not imagine what it would be to take something like goldsmithing all the way to 100.
The risk factor is also something I never liked. To spend insane time waiting for one single drop like a v-claw, d-ingot, or some other drop in sky or from a bc/ksnm then only to have it explode while synthing is just rediculous. People would literally spend months waiting for one item and spend up to a few million gold just for one item that had to be crafted then have it break in the synth and lose all the mats. This in unreasonable. Especially when the crafter would be max lvl and have like +4 skill from gear or something.
I remember very very long ago, spending a few weeks farming eyes for a hakutaku<sp> cluster for my O-hat run. I had a lvl 100+3 alchemist meet me to craft the eye for me and the thing exploded. Lost every single eye. The guy felt so bad he kicked me 200k gil lol. I was so pissed I just went and bought an already crafted cluster. I didn't have the patience to go through farming another set of eyes. And back then I think the eyes were selling for around 800k gil. funny thing about this is even afte you go through the stress of getting the item to pop the mob, you still have the chance that if your group wipes you lose the pop item and don't get your ungly new hat lol.
FFXI is a crazy place.
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