Rant
Does anyone else find it odd that:
1. The most expensive leather on the AH is Rugged leather.
2. Light leather sells for over a gold a stack.
3. All leather besides rugged and knothide leather list for about the same amount (1-2G) a stack.
4. The market is so flooded with knothide leather scraps which can only be used to make knothide leather, that you are better off vendoring it.
/Rant.
Maybe it's just my server, but this really doesnt make sense to me. It's not like you can't make money with skinning, just farm rugged leather (apparantly), but it still shouldn't be this way.
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Leather market is brokenFollow
14 posts
labudism wrote:
1. The most expensive leather on the AH is Rugged leather.
Quote:
2. Light leather sells for over a gold a stack.
No demand.
Quote:
3. All leather besides rugged and knothide leather list for about the same amount (1-2G) a stack.
Small, steady demand.
Quote:
4. The market is so flooded with knothide leather scraps which can only be used to make knothide leather, that you are better off vendoring it.
There are few profitable uses for knothide leather: armor kit, clefthoof kit, and the small demand for use in epic LW items.
If you want to make money skinning, try clefthoof leather (2-3g each). Take a look at cobra scales. They have high prices but I'm not sure on the demand for them.
Of course, this is just the outlook on my server.
"keyed " has it right the market is for anything hard to get or for skillup products
i am maxed out on skinning and 9 times out of 10 get knothide scraps not that i worry now as i sell at auction or to vendor i gave up leather working but i know it takes 5 pieces of scrap to make 1 knothide leather so buying scraps is an expensive way to make things anyway
if you want to make gold from skinning go with the market , collect whatever sells fast and for good gold , or better still look up what leatherworkers or other crafters need and go farm it
for fun i go to lower levels and farm as i get bored easily trying to level all the time. i get good gold just playing around farming what others need
i am maxed out on skinning and 9 times out of 10 get knothide scraps not that i worry now as i sell at auction or to vendor i gave up leather working but i know it takes 5 pieces of scrap to make 1 knothide leather so buying scraps is an expensive way to make things anyway
if you want to make gold from skinning go with the market , collect whatever sells fast and for good gold , or better still look up what leatherworkers or other crafters need and go farm it
for fun i go to lower levels and farm as i get bored easily trying to level all the time. i get good gold just playing around farming what others need
Personally, I'm more apalled at the prices people are charging for Clefthide Armor Kits, and not because they're too high. Just last week, I put up 5 for sale on the AH at a modest price of 65g, and within an hour, there were 10 other sellers undercutting me, going as low as 50g.
It's not so much that the "market" is broken, but more that other people in this game don't understand the simple economic principles that apply to perfect competition with a homogenous product. If they wan't to lose out on potential profit, that's fine by me, but not when it cuts into my profits as well.
It's not so much that the "market" is broken, but more that other people in this game don't understand the simple economic principles that apply to perfect competition with a homogenous product. If they wan't to lose out on potential profit, that's fine by me, but not when it cuts into my profits as well.
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
I remember my introduction to World of Economicraft...these days I just vendor stuff that won't make me at least 50g of profit. Lazy, its true, but the energy I save by not getting mad at noobtards more than compensates for a little lost gold. Besides, I don't play to make money. That's what work is for.
it may seem broken but for someone who collects light to rugged leather to sell, he is happy for these prices. for these reasons, i dont think there is any reason a lvl 40 can't get a mount fairly fast, even if you use a lvl 10 alt to collect a bunch of light leather, in case you dont want to change tradeskills on your lvl 40. same thing for copper ore. a lvl 10 alt can actually fund your higher level, up to a point, if you mine often enough.
Well compare the leather market to the cloth market.
Leather:
lvl 1 item: 1G a stack
lvl 2 item: 1G a stack
lvl 3 item: 1G a stack
lvl 4 item: 1G a stack
lvl 5 item: 10G a stack
lvl 6 item: maybe 75s a stack
lvl 7 item: 8G a stack
Cloth:
lvl 1 item: 20s a stack
lvl 2 item: 1G a stack
lvl 3 item: 1G a stack
lvl 4 item: 2.5G a stack
lvl 5 item: 3-5G a stack
lvl 6 item: 4-5g a stack
*These are averages on my server*
See something odd?
I just don't understand how people can sell light leather which is extremely easy to farm, for the same price as thick leather, which would require a lvl 40 character at least. Both are important in leveling up leatherworking, in fact you need ALOT more thick leather than light leather to lvl up leatherworking.
I actually understand why rugged leather is so expensive. You need even MORE rugged leather than thick leather to get to 300 LW. So that accounts for the high demand, but what about the supply? Well I, like most people went to OL and lvl 58. Rugged leather only drops regularly from ~lvl 60 mobs in azeroth, as soon as you go to outland you get Knothide leather craps (yes, craps :p). High demand + low supply = high prices.
What about knothide leather craps? since it takes 5 craps to make one knothide leather, they should sell for: 8g / 5 = 1.6g a stack, but you are lucky to get even 1.0g for them. Usually people list them for 80s a stack or so. 80s * 5 = 4g for a stack of Knothide leather from craps... Are people just SO lazy that they are willing to shell out an extra 3-4 gold to skip converting the craps to knothide leather?
Momma always said I should have been a miner...
I should have listened...
No demand.
Um... your saying light leather sells for alot because there is NO demand?
Leather:
lvl 1 item: 1G a stack
lvl 2 item: 1G a stack
lvl 3 item: 1G a stack
lvl 4 item: 1G a stack
lvl 5 item: 10G a stack
lvl 6 item: maybe 75s a stack
lvl 7 item: 8G a stack
Cloth:
lvl 1 item: 20s a stack
lvl 2 item: 1G a stack
lvl 3 item: 1G a stack
lvl 4 item: 2.5G a stack
lvl 5 item: 3-5G a stack
lvl 6 item: 4-5g a stack
*These are averages on my server*
See something odd?
I just don't understand how people can sell light leather which is extremely easy to farm, for the same price as thick leather, which would require a lvl 40 character at least. Both are important in leveling up leatherworking, in fact you need ALOT more thick leather than light leather to lvl up leatherworking.
I actually understand why rugged leather is so expensive. You need even MORE rugged leather than thick leather to get to 300 LW. So that accounts for the high demand, but what about the supply? Well I, like most people went to OL and lvl 58. Rugged leather only drops regularly from ~lvl 60 mobs in azeroth, as soon as you go to outland you get Knothide leather craps (yes, craps :p). High demand + low supply = high prices.
What about knothide leather craps? since it takes 5 craps to make one knothide leather, they should sell for: 8g / 5 = 1.6g a stack, but you are lucky to get even 1.0g for them. Usually people list them for 80s a stack or so. 80s * 5 = 4g for a stack of Knothide leather from craps... Are people just SO lazy that they are willing to shell out an extra 3-4 gold to skip converting the craps to knothide leather?
Momma always said I should have been a miner...
I should have listened...
Quote:
Quote:
2. Light leather sells for over a gold a stack.
No demand.
Um... your saying light leather sells for alot because there is NO demand?
Yea, the leather on my server is a little funky too. But you know what? I am making awesome gold off my skinning so no complaints here. Thick leather stacks can go up to 3g per and rugged can go up to 6g per. And people buy it up like it's crack. So again, no complaints here.
2 posts
Quote:
Personally, I'm more apalled at the prices people are charging for Clefthide Armor Kits, and not because they're too high. Just last week, I put up 5 for sale on the AH at a modest price of 65g, and within an hour, there were 10 other sellers undercutting me, going as low as 50g.
It's not so much that the "market" is broken, but more that other people in this game don't understand the simple economic principles that apply to perfect competition with a homogenous product. If they wan't to lose out on potential profit, that's fine by me, but not when it cuts into my profits as well.
It's not so much that the "market" is broken, but more that other people in this game don't understand the simple economic principles that apply to perfect competition with a homogenous product. If they wan't to lose out on potential profit, that's fine by me, but not when it cuts into my profits as well.
Then you're missing out on what capitalism is all about. I only make items to sell as a LW when I know that I can sell them for less than what is on the AH right now. I make and sell the following at these prices all day long, and NEVER have to relist, and still make a profit:
Deviate Scale Belt: 5.75 Gold
Toughened Leather Gloves: 5.0 Gold
Barbaric Bracers: 7.0 - 7.5 Gold.
Wolfshead healm: 5 Gold.
granted I'm only a 43 rogue, but I'm able to get the mats (a lot of times right off the AH) and sell them. I undercut everyone, and I don't lose sleep over it. Profit is profit, and as long as I'm turning a profit, I don't care. I do the same thing with my alts who tailor, alch, and my miners. I have nothing but thread and dye in junky Green cloth stuff, so I can sell it cheap, let the enchanters by it to DE and still make a profit. I only have the cost of vials in the pots, so I can sell them cheap, and they ALWAYS SELL. I sell my bars / ore the same way. There are things that I want in the game (like double fiery'd zigglers for my rogue... they look so pimp on him now) so I went and did what I had to do to raise the cash. (for those keeping tally that's 120g -ish for the blades and fiery.
My mentality is: "It's only worth what someone is willing to pay for it" that's how I make money in real life every day. that's the philosophy I take to get the crap I want in WoW.
Edited, Sep 21st 2007 8:53am by BPNshoju
BPNshoju wrote:
Quote:
Personally, I'm more apalled at the prices people are charging for Clefthide Armor Kits, and not because they're too high. Just last week, I put up 5 for sale on the AH at a modest price of 65g, and within an hour, there were 10 other sellers undercutting me, going as low as 50g.
It's not so much that the "market" is broken, but more that other people in this game don't understand the simple economic principles that apply to perfect competition with a homogenous product. If they wan't to lose out on potential profit, that's fine by me, but not when it cuts into my profits as well.
It's not so much that the "market" is broken, but more that other people in this game don't understand the simple economic principles that apply to perfect competition with a homogenous product. If they wan't to lose out on potential profit, that's fine by me, but not when it cuts into my profits as well.
Then you're missing out on what capitalism is all about. I only make items to sell as a LW when I know that I can sell them for less than what is on the AH right now. I make and sell the following at these prices all day long, and NEVER have to relist, and still make a profit:
Deviate Scale Belt: 5.75 Gold
Toughened Leather Gloves: 5.0 Gold
Barbaric Bracers: 7.0 - 7.5 Gold.
Wolfshead healm: 5 Gold.
granted I'm only a 43 rogue, but I'm able to get the mats (a lot of times right off the AH) and sell them. I undercut everyone, and I don't lose sleep over it. Profit is profit, and as long as I'm turning a profit, I don't care. I do the same thing with my alts who tailor, alch, and my miners. I have nothing but thread and dye in junky Green cloth stuff, so I can sell it cheap, let the enchanters by it to DE and still make a profit. I only have the cost of vials in the pots, so I can sell them cheap, and they ALWAYS SELL. I sell my bars / ore the same way. There are things that I want in the game (like double fiery'd zigglers for my rogue... they look so pimp on him now) so I went and did what I had to do to raise the cash. (for those keeping tally that's 120g -ish for the blades and fiery.
My mentality is: "It's only worth what someone is willing to pay for it" that's how I make money in real life every day. that's the philosophy I take to get the crap I want in WoW.
Edited, Sep 21st 2007 8:53am by BPNshoju
You fail at simple macroeconomics.
Plus, once you hit the 350+ LWing market, the materials are oftentimes more expensive than the final product, which necessitates farming to some degree. If I could turn a profit on Riding Crops just by buying the mats on the AH, I'd have no problem, but the Primal Might alone almost costs the same as the selling price of the Riding Crop.
Basically, it comes down to people not making as much profit as they could, and that lack of economic efficiency pains me, both monetarily and otherwise.
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
27 posts
The WoW market isn't perfectly competitive. It never has been and never will be. AFAIK, no MMORPG with any player-driven economy to speak of has had perfect competition, simply because the underlying assumptions aren't valid.
As some of the posts here imply, a big difference between the WoW and real-world economies is individual motivation. Tradeskillers produce and sell goods in WoW for a variety of reasons, some of which have little or nothing to do with potential profit. Some people merely want to get to 375 skill (for that BoP epic breastplate, to provide enchants for their guildies' equipment, or whatever). They may sell what they've produced at a discount, knowing they're flooding the market, just to minimize the gold hemorrhage skilling up typically entails. Others are willing to settle for less of a profit, or even take a loss, because marketing options are limited with the auction system. Bottom line, stuff frequently gets dumped on the market because people don't want to be bothered.
Time is worth something...especially when you aren't depending on tradeskills to put a roof over your head and food on the table, so to speak. The only sources of original cash are MOB drops and quest rewards. You don't have to produce anything of value to receive value; you just have to put in some time. If push comes to shove, you farm some cash or complete some quests. Speaking of farming, the influence of gold farmers makes the WoW economy even more turbulent and unpredictable.
I guess in some ways all of this is lamentable if you seek to make a consistent return on investment from your chosen tradeskill, but I don't think it indicates that people are ignorant of macroeconomic principles. It just means those principles don't apply in-game in the same ways nor to the same extent that they do in the real world.
As some of the posts here imply, a big difference between the WoW and real-world economies is individual motivation. Tradeskillers produce and sell goods in WoW for a variety of reasons, some of which have little or nothing to do with potential profit. Some people merely want to get to 375 skill (for that BoP epic breastplate, to provide enchants for their guildies' equipment, or whatever). They may sell what they've produced at a discount, knowing they're flooding the market, just to minimize the gold hemorrhage skilling up typically entails. Others are willing to settle for less of a profit, or even take a loss, because marketing options are limited with the auction system. Bottom line, stuff frequently gets dumped on the market because people don't want to be bothered.
Time is worth something...especially when you aren't depending on tradeskills to put a roof over your head and food on the table, so to speak. The only sources of original cash are MOB drops and quest rewards. You don't have to produce anything of value to receive value; you just have to put in some time. If push comes to shove, you farm some cash or complete some quests. Speaking of farming, the influence of gold farmers makes the WoW economy even more turbulent and unpredictable.
I guess in some ways all of this is lamentable if you seek to make a consistent return on investment from your chosen tradeskill, but I don't think it indicates that people are ignorant of macroeconomic principles. It just means those principles don't apply in-game in the same ways nor to the same extent that they do in the real world.
You bumped a two week old thread to argue about base assumptions of ambiguous microeconomic models?
It's fairly obvious that those assumptions don't apply to the WoW economy because, in almost all cases, they don't apply to a single market in the real world either (the exception being certain parts of the agriculture market). However, I think you missed my main point.
I couldn't care less that people don't understand simple economic principles like pricing at the margin, but it's the lack of economic efficiency, the deadweight loss of the entire situation, and the drain on my own profits that annoys me.
It's fairly obvious that those assumptions don't apply to the WoW economy because, in almost all cases, they don't apply to a single market in the real world either (the exception being certain parts of the agriculture market). However, I think you missed my main point.
Quote:
Basically, it comes down to people not making as much profit as they could, and that lack of economic efficiency pains me, both monetarily and otherwise.
I couldn't care less that people don't understand simple economic principles like pricing at the margin, but it's the lack of economic efficiency, the deadweight loss of the entire situation, and the drain on my own profits that annoys me.
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
27 posts
No, I bumped a two-week old thread to challenge your assertion that people in game don't understand the principles involved. I didn't bring up the model to support my argument, nor am I the one who said "you fail at simple macroeconomics."
The gist of your argument is:
1) People are undercutting my prices and not making as much as they theoretically could.
2) Because of that, I'm not making as much money as I theoretically could.
3) Therefore, undercutters are ignorant.
It's a non sequitur. They may not be dancing to your tune, but they appear to be having fun (it is a game, after all) and making what they consider to be a satisfactory profit. There's no need to insult anyone.
The gist of your argument is:
1) People are undercutting my prices and not making as much as they theoretically could.
2) Because of that, I'm not making as much money as I theoretically could.
3) Therefore, undercutters are ignorant.
It's a non sequitur. They may not be dancing to your tune, but they appear to be having fun (it is a game, after all) and making what they consider to be a satisfactory profit. There's no need to insult anyone.
I'm not insulting anybody. If they don't understand economic principles, that's their loss. However, when their loss contributes to my loss, I take issue.
By undercutting to that degree, they're not making as much profit as they potentially could. 5g isn't much, but add it up over the potentially hundreds of items that are bought on the AH each day on a single server, and you're talking about a huge amount of money that's not moving through the economy.
I realize that 5% of that money is being taken out of circulation due to AH cuts, but the lack of cash flow is what produces stagnation in server economies (among other things). That's why high population servers have such thriving economies, while low pop servers have idleness: cash flow.
By undercutting to that degree, they're not making as much profit as they potentially could. 5g isn't much, but add it up over the potentially hundreds of items that are bought on the AH each day on a single server, and you're talking about a huge amount of money that's not moving through the economy.
I realize that 5% of that money is being taken out of circulation due to AH cuts, but the lack of cash flow is what produces stagnation in server economies (among other things). That's why high population servers have such thriving economies, while low pop servers have idleness: cash flow.
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
Am I the only one who actually sells things cheaply because I think there might be people out there who don't have that much cash to spend? I realize that a lot of the stuff I sell could very well be ending up relisted by profiteers, but honestly there's not a whole lot I can do to stop that.
I really don't get what the big fuss is about all this economics crap.
I really don't get what the big fuss is about all this economics crap.
27 posts
Well, I'm more a management type than an economic theory type, but I always thought stagnation (if it even really exists, which is a separate question) produces low cash flow...not the other way around? And although I can't say I've played on any low-population servers since maybe a few months after release, the servers I do play on seem to be experiencing the exact opposite of stagnation. When stuff is regularly listed on the AH at 3 or 4 times the price it was less than a year ago, it seems to me the economy is pretty vibrant!
In any event, if I misinterpreted your comments above, I apologize.
Just realized something else:
I think the reason cloth prices scale (and are generally lower than leather prices at similar levels) is because anyone can farm it, regardless of profession.
Edited, Oct 11th 2007 11:27am by Ytrill
In any event, if I misinterpreted your comments above, I apologize.
Just realized something else:
Quote:
Leather:
lvl 1 item: 1G a stack
lvl 2 item: 1G a stack
lvl 3 item: 1G a stack
lvl 4 item: 1G a stack
lvl 5 item: 10G a stack
lvl 6 item: maybe 75s a stack
lvl 7 item: 8G a stack
Cloth:
lvl 1 item: 20s a stack
lvl 2 item: 1G a stack
lvl 3 item: 1G a stack
lvl 4 item: 2.5G a stack
lvl 5 item: 3-5G a stack
lvl 6 item: 4-5g a stack
lvl 1 item: 1G a stack
lvl 2 item: 1G a stack
lvl 3 item: 1G a stack
lvl 4 item: 1G a stack
lvl 5 item: 10G a stack
lvl 6 item: maybe 75s a stack
lvl 7 item: 8G a stack
Cloth:
lvl 1 item: 20s a stack
lvl 2 item: 1G a stack
lvl 3 item: 1G a stack
lvl 4 item: 2.5G a stack
lvl 5 item: 3-5G a stack
lvl 6 item: 4-5g a stack
I think the reason cloth prices scale (and are generally lower than leather prices at similar levels) is because anyone can farm it, regardless of profession.
Edited, Oct 11th 2007 11:27am by Ytrill
MetalM wrote:
Am I the only one who actually sells things cheaply because I think there might be people out there who don't have that much cash to spend?
Yes. If they can't afford the item, they'll go with a weaker (or cheaper) substitute, or they'll farm the money required to buy the item at its fair (market) value. In the end, you're the one losing out though, not them.
Quote:
I really don't get what the big fuss is about all this economics crap.
That's because you're not an economist.
Edit:
Quote:
When stuff is regularly listed on the AH at 3 or 4 times the price it was less than a year ago, it seems to me the economy is pretty vibrant!
That's exactly what I was driving at. It's listing items below their market value that produces low cash flow and stagnation, mostly because there's a whole lot of money out there that's just sitting around unused instead of moving through economic channels into the hands of those that need it.
Edited, Oct 11th 2007 1:31pm by Demea
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
I tend to have a very simple philosophy when it comes to the auction house; go with the flow. If I have something that sells well I’ll try to sell it while the selling is good. If the going price is below what I want to sell for I’ll store my items until that price changes. And it will change as supply and demand change.
When I was raising money for my very first level 40 mount, a stack of ten mithril bars sold for 1 gold. A couple of weeks ago when I was trying to empty out some junk from one of my bank alts, ten mithril bars were selling for 8 gold, and selling fast. The last time I looked mithril bars were selling for 5 gold per ten.
Trying to make sense of pricing in a MMORPG only leads to headaches, at least for me.
When I was raising money for my very first level 40 mount, a stack of ten mithril bars sold for 1 gold. A couple of weeks ago when I was trying to empty out some junk from one of my bank alts, ten mithril bars were selling for 8 gold, and selling fast. The last time I looked mithril bars were selling for 5 gold per ten.
Trying to make sense of pricing in a MMORPG only leads to headaches, at least for me.
Quote:
make and sell the following at these prices all day long, and NEVER have to relist, and still make a profit:
Deviate Scale Belt: 5.75 Gold
Toughened Leather Gloves: 5.0 Gold
Barbaric Bracers: 7.0 - 7.5 Gold.
Wolfshead healm: 5 Gold.
Deviate Scale Belt: 5.75 Gold
Toughened Leather Gloves: 5.0 Gold
Barbaric Bracers: 7.0 - 7.5 Gold.
Wolfshead healm: 5 Gold.
Dude, I don't know whats up with your server, but I sell Deviate Scale Belts for 20g easy, and the bracers and gloves go for a minimum for 15g. And you should be able to run WC in no time to get scales at your level, why bother buying the mats and cutting your profits even more.
Demea wrote:
Yes. If they can't afford the item, they'll go with a weaker (or cheaper) substitute, or they'll farm the money required to buy the item at its fair (market) value. In the end, you're the one losing out though, not them.
True, but I've always preferred to think that the value of a given something is contingent. I sell stuff for whatever amount I feel like. If I lose out on a few gold, that's ok. I can make more easily and I prefer being nice to being rich. Also, I'm famous for being a soft touch :P
Demea wrote:
I wrote:
I really don't get what the big fuss is about all this economics crap.
Amen to that, babe.
labudism wrote:
Rant
D
3. All leather besides rugged and knothide leather list for about the same amount (1-2G) a stack.
4. The market is so flooded with knothide leather scraps which can only be used to make knothide leather, that you are better off vendoring it.
D
3. All leather besides rugged and knothide leather list for about the same amount (1-2G) a stack.
4. The market is so flooded with knothide leather scraps which can only be used to make knothide leather, that you are better off vendoring it.
My knothide leather scraps sell, but my knothide leather doesn't sell at all anymore. So lately I have been vendoring it.
The knothide returns are particularly frustrating. A month ago I managed to sell stacks for 12-15g, when demand was really high. The norm, IMO, should be 8-10g. Just this past weekend, though, the market was flooded with people going as low as 4g a stack.
I want to drop skinning and pick up another craft, but I don't want to relearn skinning when the expansion hits. I guess I'd better skin cobrahides and clefthoof to make this skill worthwhile.
I want to drop skinning and pick up another craft, but I don't want to relearn skinning when the expansion hits. I guess I'd better skin cobrahides and clefthoof to make this skill worthwhile.
I've seen a similar market swing on my server. I suggest using this as an opportunity to level your leatherworking skill, assuming you paired that with skinning. If the created armor pieces don't sell, I'll send them to my enchanter to disenchant.
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