Hey guys,
Just wanted to give a hats off to the nice PLDs in our server. How do you guys manage to do all that tanking? I tried playing PLD to lvl 24 and I was in over my head. The mobs kept jumping back and forth between the BLMs and RNGs and WHMs and back and forth.
I never realized that tanking as a PLD would be that hard, so I just wanted to come in and give you guys a /praise. You guys keep on meat shielding and I will keep on hitting the mobs for big numbers.
Peace
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I am a WHM and I can tell you I love nothing more than a seeing a paladin in that pt list. Ninjas are good but dont keep hate well and they get beat up when they cant get their blink off. Warriors seem to make a better sub job than main job although I have had some pretty effective WAR/WHM. Then we have the Paladins. The Paladins hold hate easily with warrior subbed by being able to do 3 things that cause a lot of hate. Cast large heals, Do decent DMG, and provoke. The best pallys I group with ask me not to heal for the first few moments in a combat. They will normally cast a large heal on themselves followed up by a flash and then another provoke. By that time I have hasted them and regend them and can start healing with no fear of gathering hate. Also at higher lvls Paladins basically have another way of provoking if they need to in Cure III and Cure IV mobs hate seeing large chunks of HP restored. Paladins of Shiva... thanks for all the hard and thankless work.
hehe double post im a ********
Edited, Thu Dec 16 06:54:35 2004 by Gravymonkey
Edited, Thu Dec 16 06:54:35 2004 by Gravymonkey
I most definitely agree! I am lucky to party with a highly talented Paladin, NSS Member Arcos, who is absolutely amazing to watch in action. This guy has so many ways to get hate that it's CRAZY hard to pull it off him in emergencies. *coughGarliageBeetlecough*.
I'm definitely wishing he was currently tanking as we level our current jobs. I'm still way over my head as a fledgling White Mage, freaking out alot.
Arcos is your Paladin God. :)
I'm definitely wishing he was currently tanking as we level our current jobs. I'm still way over my head as a fledgling White Mage, freaking out alot.
Arcos is your Paladin God. :)
pld aren't that good at holding hate until lv37 when they obtain flash
Aaaah...yes PLDs become great at level 37, but isnt the other tank job (Ninja) get some godly spell at 37 to equal that? (Utsusemi: Ni, making them like invincible). Pre-37 I prefered PLD. Post-37 I like NINs. They rarely need healed unless its a double/triple-attack monster (Mandys, Marlboros, etc). But as a PLD just voke every 30th second and try to get a cure 2 on yourself every now and then, you should be fine. If your RNGs or BLMs are going crazy with their damage, tell them to slow down or you cant be held accountable for what happens to them. Then let them tank for 1 battle. That should change their mind ^-^ lol.
The only problem I have with ninja tanks is they cant hold hate as well as a pally. Which ends up making it harder for the healers and nukers to gauge how much to cast and can get the healer stuck in the situation of healing yourself to stay alive and gaining more hate. If i gain hate with a pally a lot of times they will cast heal on me and gain aggro back. My friend Kinetica is a great ninja tank but even she admits that ninjas dont hold aggro that well without having to overnuke like crazy which gets expensive for a ninja. If there is a blm in the pt I cant expect a ninja to hold hate... hell it seems that they have trouble holding aggro from darks rangers and monks as well. I dunno maybe its just me but I still like the Pally at lvl 57...going on 58.
Zephyrus:
No offense but I beg to differ. Having taken my pld from 17 to 42 in the last 10 days, I can tell ye that if a paladin knows what he is doing and the party co-operates with him, the paladin won't lose hate very often. There will always be times when the paladin can't maintain the hate. Say mob number 5 in the xp chain without a brd or rdm for refresh when he's sitting on a mere 20 mp or so and the Sam and Rng pull off a mad skill chain right at the beginning of the fight, cause they're trying for xp chain # 4 for 200+ xp.
All a paladin needs to do is communicate with the party. I've had to tell a couple of blm to back off the heavy nukes until after 2 'vokes and a heal or two. Had one that refused to back down telling me "My job is to Nuke, Nuke often, Nuke hard, yer job's to tank and not tell me how to do my job." After his 3rd death in 3 fights. He backed off. Mind you my blm is 47, I do know what I'm talking about.
LOL, I even had to fight one Whm in Yuhtunga to quite healing me every time ah got scratched. After talked to him for a few minutes in /tells he realized that I've got mp and cure spells for a reason. We worked a compromise that he could heal me at the start of the fight if I got particularly worked or if I hadn't had a chance to heal and we got aggro. Otherwise he only healed me when my mp dropped by half or I went into the orange.
I've been in quite a few different parties in the last two weeks, leveling my pld for my static party. I'm ashamed to say that I've been praised for actually doing my job. I had a nice whm that I partied with in Yhoator for about 3 or 4 lvls who wanted to static with me, who told me that I was the first paladin who she'd partied with who actually would Provoke and Heal himself.
It's great to be praised, but when ye hear about the Paladins who have the mentality of "Healing is the Whm's job" or "Provoking is the War's job" makes that praise a bit bittersweet.
Edited to replace the Ah for I for ease of understanding.
Edited, Thu Dec 16 14:37:37 2004 by Papawarlock
Edited, Thu Dec 16 14:38:28 2004 by Papawarlock
Quote:
pld aren't that good at holding hate until lv37 when they obtain flash
No offense but I beg to differ. Having taken my pld from 17 to 42 in the last 10 days, I can tell ye that if a paladin knows what he is doing and the party co-operates with him, the paladin won't lose hate very often. There will always be times when the paladin can't maintain the hate. Say mob number 5 in the xp chain without a brd or rdm for refresh when he's sitting on a mere 20 mp or so and the Sam and Rng pull off a mad skill chain right at the beginning of the fight, cause they're trying for xp chain # 4 for 200+ xp.
All a paladin needs to do is communicate with the party. I've had to tell a couple of blm to back off the heavy nukes until after 2 'vokes and a heal or two. Had one that refused to back down telling me "My job is to Nuke, Nuke often, Nuke hard, yer job's to tank and not tell me how to do my job." After his 3rd death in 3 fights. He backed off. Mind you my blm is 47, I do know what I'm talking about.
LOL, I even had to fight one Whm in Yuhtunga to quite healing me every time ah got scratched. After talked to him for a few minutes in /tells he realized that I've got mp and cure spells for a reason. We worked a compromise that he could heal me at the start of the fight if I got particularly worked or if I hadn't had a chance to heal and we got aggro. Otherwise he only healed me when my mp dropped by half or I went into the orange.
I've been in quite a few different parties in the last two weeks, leveling my pld for my static party. I'm ashamed to say that I've been praised for actually doing my job. I had a nice whm that I partied with in Yhoator for about 3 or 4 lvls who wanted to static with me, who told me that I was the first paladin who she'd partied with who actually would Provoke and Heal himself.
It's great to be praised, but when ye hear about the Paladins who have the mentality of "Healing is the Whm's job" or "Provoking is the War's job" makes that praise a bit bittersweet.
Edited to replace the Ah for I for ease of understanding.
Edited, Thu Dec 16 14:37:37 2004 by Papawarlock
Edited, Thu Dec 16 14:38:28 2004 by Papawarlock
Papa I agree with most of what you said... but dude... thats god damn annoying the ah for I thing... really... annoying.
Annoying...or southern.
Which is still annoying. :)
Which is still annoying. :)
To Gravy and Javex
Dreadfully sorry about the ah. I've been using it for so long, over 7 years, it's become a fairly engraved typing habbit of mine. It is southern. I'm from VA (not the southern most state but still from the south.)
I'd started using it back on AOL. People liked to "Clone" names and start ruckuses and trouble. I'd started using the "ah" instead of "I" because it differentiated me from the "Clones".
I'll try to stop using it while posting but please forgive me if ah slip once in a while.
Dreadfully sorry about the ah. I've been using it for so long, over 7 years, it's become a fairly engraved typing habbit of mine. It is southern. I'm from VA (not the southern most state but still from the south.)
I'd started using it back on AOL. People liked to "Clone" names and start ruckuses and trouble. I'd started using the "ah" instead of "I" because it differentiated me from the "Clones".
I'll try to stop using it while posting but please forgive me if ah slip once in a while.
Paladins do one thing better than any other job, and that is control hate.
There is always that "edge" that damage dealers need to be aware of regardless of who's tanking, because once they cross it, there will be problems. You can get closer to that "edge" if a Paladin who understands hate well and knows all the tricks to control it is tanking for your party. This is especially true post-Flash (37).
People love Paladin tanks not because they are uber defensive machines (they are not any better than a similarly equipped warrior), but because the best ones allow other jobs to go hard core on the mobs with little to no penalty. In other words, it's safer.
In the lower levels, a 2 ninja party is a great setup. Little to no damage taken means little to no downtime.
Post-37, Ninjas get Utsusemi:Ni which allows them to solo tank. They can be great tanks thanks to this ability. However, if that's the only Ninja spell they use, they will have problems maintaining hate. The best Ninjas spend 400+ gil on each mob they tank if that is what it takes to maintain hate. Square-Enix did not design this as a tanking job, but with the right equipment and lots of gil, it's a great tank. They will still lose hate from time to time, but if they are using all their tools and Magic Bursting as well with Ni level spells, they will keep hate just fine. White Mages should use Flash to help them if they are having trouble putting Blink up, or when they lose hate to help prevent a teammate from taking damage.
My ninja is 16, almost 17, and it's a fun job. I also have good practice from Paladin at timing my spell casts, so I have an easy time putting Blink back up even with the mob in my face.
Warriors can tank very well. I was a Warrior/Monk until level 30, and the combination of Provoke and Boost works well to maintain hate as long as you are equipped to deal damage. Also, Warriors are very versatile in that they can tank or be an excellent damage dealer. Sturmwind (Great Axe WS) is godly in the lower levels. Warrior give Dark Knights a run for their money and can take some hits as well. Post 30, I've been subbing Ninja and dual wielding axes. I am probably one of the best DD in my parties, and I can also tank if need be.
Don't discount the other jobs as tanks. Just take care to not burst the hate bubble if you are a ranger or black mage especially. There are less tools for the other jobs to get hate back once it is lost. I do my best to play each of these jobs, and they all can be successful tanks. Player > Equipment > Job, IMO.
There is always that "edge" that damage dealers need to be aware of regardless of who's tanking, because once they cross it, there will be problems. You can get closer to that "edge" if a Paladin who understands hate well and knows all the tricks to control it is tanking for your party. This is especially true post-Flash (37).
People love Paladin tanks not because they are uber defensive machines (they are not any better than a similarly equipped warrior), but because the best ones allow other jobs to go hard core on the mobs with little to no penalty. In other words, it's safer.
In the lower levels, a 2 ninja party is a great setup. Little to no damage taken means little to no downtime.
Post-37, Ninjas get Utsusemi:Ni which allows them to solo tank. They can be great tanks thanks to this ability. However, if that's the only Ninja spell they use, they will have problems maintaining hate. The best Ninjas spend 400+ gil on each mob they tank if that is what it takes to maintain hate. Square-Enix did not design this as a tanking job, but with the right equipment and lots of gil, it's a great tank. They will still lose hate from time to time, but if they are using all their tools and Magic Bursting as well with Ni level spells, they will keep hate just fine. White Mages should use Flash to help them if they are having trouble putting Blink up, or when they lose hate to help prevent a teammate from taking damage.
My ninja is 16, almost 17, and it's a fun job. I also have good practice from Paladin at timing my spell casts, so I have an easy time putting Blink back up even with the mob in my face.
Warriors can tank very well. I was a Warrior/Monk until level 30, and the combination of Provoke and Boost works well to maintain hate as long as you are equipped to deal damage. Also, Warriors are very versatile in that they can tank or be an excellent damage dealer. Sturmwind (Great Axe WS) is godly in the lower levels. Warrior give Dark Knights a run for their money and can take some hits as well. Post 30, I've been subbing Ninja and dual wielding axes. I am probably one of the best DD in my parties, and I can also tank if need be.
Don't discount the other jobs as tanks. Just take care to not burst the hate bubble if you are a ranger or black mage especially. There are less tools for the other jobs to get hate back once it is lost. I do my best to play each of these jobs, and they all can be successful tanks. Player > Equipment > Job, IMO.
I just have to say my favorite tank is a NIN. A good nin can hold hate as well as a pld and in fact can pull hate off of a pld when tanking a HNM if the nin goes all out. Anyway as a whm I just like nin because I am not a cure bot when I experience with one. Status removal is much more important and timing of flash to let them cast their shadows is fun. Plus I always have enough MP to magic burst holy on a light skillchain.
The other good point to a NIN tank friend is you can duo just about anything when farming or huntin NM. ^^
So i say props to the NIN too.
The other good point to a NIN tank friend is you can duo just about anything when farming or huntin NM. ^^
So i say props to the NIN too.
Dragonsegg:
Papa: For the most part the arguement of which is better Pld or Nin is moot. There are a couple of factors to remember with this.
1) An underfunded, underequiped player is worthless as a tank.
2) A player unwilling to use all the tools available to him/her is worthless as a tank.
3) There are places and mobs were a Nin is a better tank than a Pld. There are places and mobs were a Pld is a better tank than a Nin.
4) Everyone's got a preference for tanks.
My wife is 44 whm. I am 44 Pld. We have a static that is perfect for Pld. Sam/Thf Mnk/War Pld/War Whm/Smn Blm/Whm Rdm/Smn. My wife is hardly a cure bot in the party. She capped her enfeeb and divine long before her healing. She's even in the fight itself to work on her club skills because she doesn't have to spend much time curing. The Sam, Mnk and Blm love me cause they don't have to hold back and the Mnk's got provoke for those rare moments of hate loss.
My whm is 36. I have no preference for tank as long as they can do their job.
My blm is 47. I much prefer a pld to a nin with my blm. I am able to nuke harder with a pld than a nin. Perhaps that's in part because the nin ah've partied with sucked.
I have met Nin who were awesome, I've met Pld that sucked, and vice versa. Again, both have uses, but it boils down to the player not the job.
Quote:
Anyway as a whm I just like nin because I am not a cure bot when I experience with one.
Papa: For the most part the arguement of which is better Pld or Nin is moot. There are a couple of factors to remember with this.
1) An underfunded, underequiped player is worthless as a tank.
2) A player unwilling to use all the tools available to him/her is worthless as a tank.
3) There are places and mobs were a Nin is a better tank than a Pld. There are places and mobs were a Pld is a better tank than a Nin.
4) Everyone's got a preference for tanks.
My wife is 44 whm. I am 44 Pld. We have a static that is perfect for Pld. Sam/Thf Mnk/War Pld/War Whm/Smn Blm/Whm Rdm/Smn. My wife is hardly a cure bot in the party. She capped her enfeeb and divine long before her healing. She's even in the fight itself to work on her club skills because she doesn't have to spend much time curing. The Sam, Mnk and Blm love me cause they don't have to hold back and the Mnk's got provoke for those rare moments of hate loss.
My whm is 36. I have no preference for tank as long as they can do their job.
My blm is 47. I much prefer a pld to a nin with my blm. I am able to nuke harder with a pld than a nin. Perhaps that's in part because the nin ah've partied with sucked.
I have met Nin who were awesome, I've met Pld that sucked, and vice versa. Again, both have uses, but it boils down to the player not the job.
It's nice to know us Pld's are appreciated but leave it to some people to bring ninjas into a thread complimenting us Plds
lol pld with no confidence in themselves. I just said props to nin too and that they were my personal favorite. Rate me down more.
i <3 getting one shotted ; ;
Wow... Javex gives me too much credit. I suck, actually. lol Our Sneaky Little Taru kept me alive. hehe
DragonsEgg, I think you're missing two points. Neither of which is any insecurities any pld viewing this thread may or may not experience. The OP played the job of pld and found it completely different than what he expected. Point 1. He created this thread to express his appreciation to those who play this job because of what he discovered. Point 2.
Your post is all well and good, but does not fit with the context of the thread (as a few others, also). It's not about, "Show your appreciation for your tanks," which is what I see in your post. It has been my experience on these forums that once someone mentions one type of tank (or whatever role), just to express their appreciation for them, some other person has to promote another type of tank (or whatever role). This is not a "debate the tank" or "show your love for your [preferred type] tank" thread. Now, everyone's entitled to post what they want, but in light of the exact message and context of the OP, don't get fussy if someone points it out that you're (general "you're") going off topic, albeit quite pointedly.
SufferingNewb, thank you for the compliments but really, it's the player's skill that makes the job. I find that I tank well either as pld or war/mnk. Both are tanking roles, just different strategies. Much like blink tanking. But now, I'm going off topic. :P
*added*
Hrmm... thought I'd add this bit if SufferingNewb is interested in resuming a tanking role... check out the official job forums. I've learned much from them (equipment choices, food, strategies, limitations, etc.) and when I first started, I got some good advice from other tanks. Granted it was usually 2 wars (I being one of them), it's a bit more uncommon to have 2 plds in a group. Even to this day, I would check out the war or pld forums and see some things I haven't known or seen before and try to incorporate them (well, when I'm playing my main anyway. :P). It takes a lot of playing, much like the other roles.
Edited, Wed Dec 22 20:41:30 2004 by ArcosKojin
DragonsEgg, I think you're missing two points. Neither of which is any insecurities any pld viewing this thread may or may not experience. The OP played the job of pld and found it completely different than what he expected. Point 1. He created this thread to express his appreciation to those who play this job because of what he discovered. Point 2.
Your post is all well and good, but does not fit with the context of the thread (as a few others, also). It's not about, "Show your appreciation for your tanks," which is what I see in your post. It has been my experience on these forums that once someone mentions one type of tank (or whatever role), just to express their appreciation for them, some other person has to promote another type of tank (or whatever role). This is not a "debate the tank" or "show your love for your [preferred type] tank" thread. Now, everyone's entitled to post what they want, but in light of the exact message and context of the OP, don't get fussy if someone points it out that you're (general "you're") going off topic, albeit quite pointedly.
SufferingNewb, thank you for the compliments but really, it's the player's skill that makes the job. I find that I tank well either as pld or war/mnk. Both are tanking roles, just different strategies. Much like blink tanking. But now, I'm going off topic. :P
*added*
Hrmm... thought I'd add this bit if SufferingNewb is interested in resuming a tanking role... check out the official job forums. I've learned much from them (equipment choices, food, strategies, limitations, etc.) and when I first started, I got some good advice from other tanks. Granted it was usually 2 wars (I being one of them), it's a bit more uncommon to have 2 plds in a group. Even to this day, I would check out the war or pld forums and see some things I haven't known or seen before and try to incorporate them (well, when I'm playing my main anyway. :P). It takes a lot of playing, much like the other roles.
Edited, Wed Dec 22 20:41:30 2004 by ArcosKojin
Hi guys, this is my first post ever :)
First off, the things i love about being a PLD.
~Party invites usually arent a problem
~PLD armor looks awesome :)
~I am never bored in a party (so much to do)
~Its a pretty cheap job comparativly
~I can PL people (both good and bad :P)
~Its easy to hold hate (Voke every 30 secs, Flash every 45, cures as needed. I throw in a sentinel or shield bash in an emergency)
~hunting nms is doable with this macro (/targetnpc >> NL >> /ma "Flash" <t>)
~Finally, <protectIII> + <sentinel> + <defender> + <steamed crab> = 500+ def. . .i never use defender but those numbers just make me smile :)
Ok, the things i dont like. . . this list is shorter
~There arent enough BCNMs that are good for a PLD
~Resting MP. . .uggg. . .RDMs keep us PLDs refreshed :) (I know resting is part of my job. . .i just like to complain :P)
~And finally. . .yes, i hit like a girl >_<
Thank you for this thread guys. Its nice to know we PLDs are appreciated. Its people like you that make this job fun :)
/bow <Gravymonkey> You rock Norr
First off, the things i love about being a PLD.
~Party invites usually arent a problem
~PLD armor looks awesome :)
~I am never bored in a party (so much to do)
~Its a pretty cheap job comparativly
~I can PL people (both good and bad :P)
~Its easy to hold hate (Voke every 30 secs, Flash every 45, cures as needed. I throw in a sentinel or shield bash in an emergency)
~hunting nms is doable with this macro (/targetnpc >> NL >> /ma "Flash" <t>)
~Finally, <protectIII> + <sentinel> + <defender> + <steamed crab> = 500+ def. . .i never use defender but those numbers just make me smile :)
Ok, the things i dont like. . . this list is shorter
~There arent enough BCNMs that are good for a PLD
~Resting MP. . .uggg. . .RDMs keep us PLDs refreshed :) (I know resting is part of my job. . .i just like to complain :P)
~And finally. . .yes, i hit like a girl >_<
Thank you for this thread guys. Its nice to know we PLDs are appreciated. Its people like you that make this job fun :)
/bow <Gravymonkey> You rock Norr
I guess most of the ninjas (Kinetica youre the exception hehe) that I have partied with post 40 just dont nuke enough to hold hate then. The question I pose is this. Why would you want to have a tank that does not allow you to do the best you can ? If what you say is true doesnt that mean that having a ninja tank can perhaps slow the xp down somewhat ? I guess it makes up for it with a lack of downtime... I guess... I dunno it seems that with most Ninjas I have to end up healing the other members of the party more LOL. Strangely enough our Dragoon, a little bit ago, took up the slack that our Ninja was leaving out and ended up being the main tank for most of teh battles and remarkably did a super job of holding hate. Good job Borrowedtime. Now Stormy ^^ we all know that YOU are teh man not me LOL.
Not meaning to take this thread off topic further, but here's a little something I've been reading about here on the forums...
1. A good Paladin reduces downtime by helping kill monsters faster (they don't contribute much to damage, but they allow DDs and nukers to go full bore), thus they can chain pretty good. With refresh or ballad, downtime is further reduced. With juice, even more so. I use juice mainly--still haven't reached the level of refresh, so my addiction hasn't started yet. :D
2. A good Ninja reduces downtime by making it practically nil between fights, thus they can chain pretty good. When the ninja gets both utsusemi's, the healer can effectively rest mp during a fight, provided the ninja maintains hate. And a good ninja should be able to do this.
Different strategies and different methods and of course, different selection of mobs to hunt (for maximum efficiency anyway). But I'm still only level 37, what do I know? *shrug*
1. A good Paladin reduces downtime by helping kill monsters faster (they don't contribute much to damage, but they allow DDs and nukers to go full bore), thus they can chain pretty good. With refresh or ballad, downtime is further reduced. With juice, even more so. I use juice mainly--still haven't reached the level of refresh, so my addiction hasn't started yet. :D
2. A good Ninja reduces downtime by making it practically nil between fights, thus they can chain pretty good. When the ninja gets both utsusemi's, the healer can effectively rest mp during a fight, provided the ninja maintains hate. And a good ninja should be able to do this.
Different strategies and different methods and of course, different selection of mobs to hunt (for maximum efficiency anyway). But I'm still only level 37, what do I know? *shrug*
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