Ethics/High standards holding people back?Follow

Okay... I am doing this anonymously because I don't want to offend anyone or make anyone look bad. That is not the intent of this post. That being said...

I was in a party today on in Ro'Maeve. While I was standing there I get a /tell. "Would you like to join a HNMLS? We need more BRD's and two of ours just quit." I think to myself, of course I would. So I pursue the conversation a little further. Now I have been looking at a certain HNMLS (good reputation and friends in it) for a while but unfortunately they have too many BRD's and I myself am a BRD. So I decide to take a look at this one. Now at first I think it's a little strange to get a blind /tell for something like a HNMLS but I put that aside.

The first thing we do is go 'skill up' a bit before a NM spawn. As we are fighting Aquarius pops and we go at it. We were not exactly prepared for the fight and low on mp so we hit orange health pretty quick. I popped my 2hr and basically saved us from humiliation and brought us back to normal. Now no cloth dropped but of course the axe did. Reluctantly I passed on the axe (wanted for other job) because there was a RNG who didn't have it yet and I didn't want him to be embarassed anymore.

So... later when we are done with 'skill up' we go to fight the NM in Sauromugue Champaign. On the way to the camp spot I am listening to the leader of the LS be a real @$$ to the others in it like he is their god or something. I really don't like when people act like that so I already have a bad taste in my mouth. Anywyas... There is a certain quest item that drops from the skinks there. I have killed like 5000 skinks and I know the drop is supposed to be easy but I have never gotten it. While I'm standing there a skink walks up and I say, "wth... I'll kill it." and viola it drops.

This is where things get sketchy. I lot on the item and get a pretty good lot. Everyone else passes... well almost everyone. There is a RNG (the one I passed the axe for earlier) who lots higher than me and he says he never got drop before either. I told him that I have killed soooooo many of them and that was my drop and that he could kill some to get another for himself. Well after I say this he doesn't pass and he takes my drop. This paired with the disposition of the leader of the LS caused me to disband the party immediately.

As soon as I leave I am flooded with /tell's. Keep in mind that I was only part of the LS for about 3 hours. Luckily I knew some of the better people in it and they understood. Almost as if they were only in that LS because the other good LS's had too many PLD's or RNG's, who knows.

The funny thing is that I immediately get a /tell from the very person that asked me to join. He explains to me that the person who took my item was an idiot and he did that kind of thing all the time. So I ask him why they let that type of thing happen. I also remind him that HNMLS's (cause I was in another at one time but it broke) are supposed to be professional and not do those types of things. After that he begins calling me an idiot and telling me wonderful things about myself which I don't care to repeat. I asked him why he was yelling at me even though I had done nothing to him. I suggested that he forget I was ever in the LS because my standards were obvoiusly too high. But he continued rambling about how I was leaving because of a book (keep in mind I passed on the axe) and I tried to tell him it was the principle of it all but he would not listen.

After I blacklisted him I began to talk to other members who were much more understanding. Some seemed to be seeking a way out themselves. Maybe to go to a better LS or at least have the courage to leave the one they were in. Even the person who took my item apologized and we were on level ground again.

My questions are: Am I expecting too much? Are my standards too high? Should a LS reputation be that important to me? Are there any LS's who regulate this type of thing? Is this all acceptable to everyone but me? Will I ever find a good honest HNMLS that I can contribute something too?

You see... I am the type of person that doesn't like to be associated with people like that. I really don't take any crap because I really don't have to. Some people deal with it and I think they shouldn't.

What do you think Ragnarok? And if you are one of the people who was involved with this please don't mention any names. It will only lead to unnecessary trouble for everyone involved.

I'll move away from the topic a bit to mention something semi-related. The thing about HNM LSes, Dynamis LSes or even any kind LSes dedicated to a purpose is that you need a good leader. I'm not saying that you need a dictator or something but a leader is just like a boss. He manages the LS. You don't need EVERYONE in the LS to like him/her either -_-

Being a leader (of an LS or PT) isn't just having that shell or yellow dot or the ability to kick people. It's about responsibilites. Your leader is and should be the one that holds the LS together, creates the rules and basically slogs for the livelyhood of the LS.

If the LS you mentioned has an *** for a leader than probably that LS wouldn't last very long at all (unless someother guy in the LS is acting as a pseudo leader). All you are talking about now is an axe and a mere item from an enemy lvl75s could probably one-shot. What happens when you need to go god fights or are looking at items worth millions? What happens then?

You never mentioned when you went for your first outing with the LS for aqua but assuming this isn't immediately after you got invited, I find it very disturbing that you never met the leader.

But with regards to this specific situation, personally i felt you were being too petty. Firstly, as a new member in an HNM LS, it doesn't matter how needed a job you are, you shouldn't expect to get any kind of drops at all. More so if your current job doesn't require it. I'm not sure if all LSes do this but more often than not, the items you get from HNMs are either used to craft to items (then perm loaned to someone in the LS) or sold to buy yet another item for the LS. You might enter a HNM fight, win and come out with nothing at all. This is especially true for God items (R/EX) and abjuguration. This is where a leader or organiser comes in, deciding who gets what drop/item. You need to build up your reputation/standings in that LS first.

Secondly, the quest item you were after was dropped while you were not specifically hunting it. Items dropped in this way are normally not governed by any HNM LS rules at all but really between the people in that PT/alliance at that time. I'll assume, since you didn't mention it, that you didn't say anything about the item in the PT before your kill. Even if you did, if you kill anything in a PT, it's only a question of individual morals that decides if they will pass the item or not. Should you really want the item for yourself, you should have disbanded before you killed it. Sound dumb? yeah maybe but do THFs or anyone that opens a coffer demand gil since the whole PT gets it? You really can't force anyone to give up that item in the T.Box. Worse, you shouldn't judge a whole LS just because of the actions of 1 guy neither can you expect the LS to kick/blist him just because of it.

HNM hunting really isn't for everyone. It is very time consuming and sometimes with little reward. You need to spend time waiting for pop just to lose, in a split second, the pull. Then you need someone to waste their time watching the other team kill the HNM just to get a death time. You need to wake up at odd hours just to camp them. Sometimes you need to draaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag a fight just so that the next time it pops, it pops during a time more accessible to the LS.... Not going to mention the deaths and the re-XPing you need. Doesn't really seem all that fun right? I suggest you rethink(the often flowered HNM 'industry') and if you are willing to spend all that game time doing HNMs or would you rather be doing something else.

HNM and other end game linkshells have been getting pretty rocky lately. It seems that as more of the "experienced" or veteran players leave, the linkshells replace them with, to put it simply, newbie high level people. And the bad thing with some of the new high levels, some of them are just a plain obnoxious pain in the ***.

It's sad to say but I don't even bother leveling my samurai anymore because I meet so many people that have a superiority complex and think they know everything when it comes to how to play jobs and such. There also seems to be less of common courtesy and at times common sense appearing in every level range.

I've heard from friends in certain HNM LS that things are getting pretty rough and it seems like if it keeps up, there is a chance that one or two NA based HNM might collapse.


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And if you want help on the diary if that's what you are talkign about, I will help. Everytime I kill those stupid things that thing drops. I think last time I walked through there I ended up with like 6 of those stupid things. I sell them to npc normally.
I think you aren't expecting too much, it's just you had some bad luck with this occasion. Maybe you get lucky and get into a HNM that you are looking for. Personally, I'm sticking to lvl 61 and will just help linkshell members for the moment.
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Edited, Wed Dec 15 22:42:21 2004 by AcidReign

I don't think your standards are too high at all. Drama shouldn't be a thing you have to bother with in a game, and especially in an in-game linkshell (luckily I found a stable HNMLS that doesn't have any. :)

However, keep in mind a couple of things here concerning the axe:
(1) You were new to the shell. Most HNMLS's are very wary of giving people that they just let join too much, for fear that they'll just "take the money and run," so to speak. It does not sound like anyone in that shell knew you very well, and therefore, immature or not, they had no cause to give you the benefit of the doubt.
(2) Your main job, at the time, was Bard. The main job of the guy who got the axe was RNG. Most HNMLS's give priority to one's main job (or, at least, the job that you have equipped at the time) when giving out equipment. This is to prevent people who have multiple 70+ jobs from getting an unfair advantage in the proportion of the items they recieve from the group. You did the right thing in giving up the axe to a RNG (presumably main) who did not have it yet, but I don't believe you were justified in complaining about not getting it, as he most likely needed it more than you.

Regardless of these two things, however, I believe you were still justified in leaving. It sounds like the ls you were in was not a very good one.

To some of the other posters: I agree with what is being said about many NA HNMLS's lowering their standards because of the departure of veteran players. Though I will not name any names, I know of several that have recently invited not just mediocre players, but outright *bad* players as well. TSHoT went through the same "losing people" phase recently too, but we have since stabilized through new invites of good, trustworthy people.

I think that all the OP needs to do is to find a ls that has standards, doesn't operate on the principles of greed, and is relatively drama-free. Unfortunately, that seems to be becoming more and more difficult lately. Especially for us BRDs, since we're "used" more often than any other job. ; ;

My mistake; I should have read what you said more carefully. Best of luck in finding a good HNMLS, & if you need any advice feel free to give me a /tell in-game (@ Cydille, of course.) I've been involved in the HNMLS thing for a couple of months and I at least like to think I know what I'm talking about. :)

As a leader of a linkshell I would feel that ethics are very important. Are ethics holding me back?

I'm in a place where I want to recruit new members for the linkshell so that we can branch out, flourish and I can get help for my members. At the same time I have no idea how to ethically recruit people in this game or what to use to gauge as a reasonable personality in my LS. I for one would be pretty bummed if one of my members got a pearl for another linkshell and just stopped showing up in mine. I also refuse to just stand around and shout at people to join my linkshell like a desperate plea for support.

And generally I feel bad about these sort of things, like I'm really just not cut out to be leading. By not actively recruiting I'm shutting my members off from getting more help. But the other side of the blade tells me that my linkshell is great. What we lack in power we make up in loyalty. We actively go out of our way to help people. We actively do everything in our power to help out a member who needs it. The entire linkshell has been known to turn out for small tasks.

I'm only level 60 now and I expect that I'll get to higher levels. My loyalty towards my linkshell may hold me back from doing some things and getting some really cool items. Hell, my AF3 has proven impossible to do within the means I have now. But when it comes down to it I don't think I'd really want to work that hard for strangers. I also don't like thinking that the people I'd be helping would be holier than thou power players who only care about more wealth (And I know there'd be at least one).

I'd be in an HNMLS if I could take my family with me. It's as simple as that. As a leader I feel like I'm responsible for the well being of the people who are also supporting me as leader. I don't care if I ever get the fortune or fame of all the wonderful people (and the few I've met have been amicable) in famous HNMLS as long as I get to play the game with the right people. Maybe in some far off land I'll get my shot to get things done, but I won't do it alone.

> lenwei. IMO
1) good skills in pt does not equate good skills in HNM fights/ hunt.
2)ur ranting on drg not inviting into HNM ls, then get another job to 75.
3)fyi, drg are good for the 3 wyrms.
4) If a LS rejects you, move on to another one. U only get rejected becos u rejected urself.

True and false. If someone has a habit of doing stupid things in a party [like pulling links or having annoying, lag-creating macros], it's going to be a problem with HNMs. Would YOU like it if I put:

/em heals.
Every time I went to rest trying to fight fafnir? [this being if I was a mage..].. HAH. Laughingstock.

Oh yes, and the wonderful Rangers who haven't figured out how to target correctly yet.. Those are gold! You want those though, oh yes. Let's get those. Pfft. Your feuneral.

And you know what? people can believe whatever the hell they want about DRG. I'm probably leaving after I get to 75 anyway. Hello WoW.

Yeah.. But they don't need to announce in EMOTE when they're doing it... >.> Yes, I know people that do.. hell, one of them in AA does it.. Last I partied with him at least..

--And in reply to the bad karma I've been getting..

God forbid I tell the truth. Wow. That's sad... Or maybe it's one of those anonymous trollers that dislikes me for some immature reason.. [god knows he or she is probably barely hitting puberty, if at all, and gets off from trolling. Oh yes. Cool people troll anonymously on forums and livejournals.]

Edited, Tue Dec 21 21:28:50 2004 by Lenwei