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#27 Jan 20 2012 at 12:15 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
It helps.


I'll second that.
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#28 Jan 20 2012 at 1:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Kakar wrote:
I don't think any child is even going to be aware of, or even care about, who's sleeping with who at any given point in time.


Yes they will and yes they do. Not because it's taboo, they don't know any better, but they do know and they do care.

Kakar wrote:
This probably wouldn't even become a factor till around age 8 or so. I'm not expert, just spitballing. The full ramifications probably wouldn't set into their mind until 11 or 12. By that time, you can have a sit down and explain that your lifestyle is a little different than the norm, and what have you.


It's not a factor at all. It's not even necessarily a problem. The child would grow up in an atmosphere where multiple concurrent serious partners are the norm and then have to live in a world where they are not. A big part of why monogamous people don't cheat on their spouses is that they feel that forming romantic attachments with multiple people is a betrayal, a child growing up in a poly amorous family may not have that inclination. It wouldn't feel wrong to them, which could be a problem if/when they are in monogamous relationships later in life.

Kakar wrote:
Just because kids see something, doesn't mean they automatically think they have to do it as well. Most kids who grow up in a same sex household don't automatically become gay because that's how they were raised. And just because a kid grows up in a polywhatcumacallit household, doesn't mean they will adopt it as a lifestyle. They will likley be a little broader minded, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.


I don't completely dissagree here but monkey see, monkey do. Children imitate parental figures, it's how they learn and more importantly how their personality is developed (which is pretty much set in stone by age 5).

People tend to gravitate towards lifestyles that they are familiar with. Behavior is learned, predisposition is not. A straight person is not going to become gay because they were raised by gay parents, they have to be pre-disposed. A child with poly amorous parents is much more likely to choose that lifestyle over a monogamous one vs a child who grew up in a more traditional atmosphere, that's behavior. (edited for clarity)

I don't have any moral qualms with poly-amorous relationships, I've had them, it's just not commonly accepted and therefore could cause social difficulties for a child raised in that type of environment.

If a single mother has a new man sleeping over every week her kids learn that this is acceptable behavior. There's nothing wrong with that as long as you believe it's acceptable behavior, you just have to be conscious that you are teaching your children that it's ok as well and that will help shape their future choices.



Edited, Jan 20th 2012 2:54pm by Yodabunny
#29 Jan 20 2012 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
This is one of those things that brings up legal quicksand and moral preaching, and I'm still trying to adjust my own prejudices to the reality of other people's wants and needs.

On the morality front of it, I think I've settled on the pro-choice argument: Don't like polyamory? Don't be poly. I'm trying to be more respectful of my friends who are part of that lifestyle and not judge them. (Now, my husband knows that if he ever tries to cheat on me I'll tie his ******* in knots. Communication is important. I'm not poly and I married him with the understand that he isn't either, and if that suddenly changes then so will our marital status. Simple as that.)

As for kids: As long as our current system grants custody automatically to both parents when they are married without further legal intervention, it's going to be a legal mess.

However, as long as a child knows that all his or her parents love him, then the child should be okay. More adults to interact with isn't a bad thing if they all get along.
#30 Jan 20 2012 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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I can't even begin to think of the legal quicksand that would occur in the divorce of a poly family.

But like Joph and others said, for raising a child, the boundaries and structure have to be clear. It's already hard enough to raise a kid with just one other parent, I know I don't have it in me to want to try to raise a poly household.
#31 Jan 20 2012 at 2:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, there'd only be one actual legal marriage per couple as far as the law is concerned. Everyone else is essentially a friend.
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#32 Jan 20 2012 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
Don't like polyamory? Don't be poly. I'm trying to be more respectful of my friends who are part of that lifestyle and not judge them. (Now, my husband knows that if he ever tries to cheat on me I'll tie his ******* in knots.
Being poly has little to nothing to do with cheating though, cheating implies that it's without consent of and without telling your SO (or significant others). Of course, there's probably a lot less cheating going on in a poly relationship because there's no need to hide it when you want to have sex or a relationship with someone else.
#33 Jan 20 2012 at 3:13 PM Rating: Good
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While I have no moral objection to the arrangement, I agree with most of the posters here that there are issues in terms of stability for children. It's hard enough to maintain a relationship with one person these days. I think that assuming by adding additional "mommies and daddies" you're adding stability and that's certainly possible. Unfortunately, most often the result is that more adults come in and out of the relationship. Which will confuse the children pretty completely, doubly so if they're actually presented as additional mommies and daddies rather than temporary roommates, friends, whatever.

In an ironic way the more you try to make those relationships more permanent and important to the raising of the child, the more risk you're putting into the situation. If the odds of divorce between two people is X, how much higher are the odds of someone leaving the relationship when there are 5 people? If the child has attached a parental association to that person, it's going to cause problems.


And that's beyond the basic fact that even if you beat the odds and everyone stays together and happy, the child is still being raised in a non-standard family and may be subject to some problems as a result. While poly relationships sounds great on paper (I've advocated for them myself), humans really are wired to form into pairs. Most of the time there's at least a pecking order. And quite often people get into the lifestyle for the sexual freedom and are fooling themselves about more long term relationships.

I'd love to see it work though.
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#34 Jan 20 2012 at 3:14 PM Rating: Good
Thanks for the feedback guys. I'll be honest, I hadn't thought of problems that could stem from parents needing to be a united front when it comes to discipline. That is definitely something that would have to be discussed before any kids came into the picture.

As far as what the kids would call each parent, I'm honestly not too worried about that. Kids come up with nicknames to differentiate between grandparents all the time. Or at least I did. My dad's parents I called Grandma and Grandpa, and my mom's parents I called Monies and Popu. I've also thought of having the biological parents called Mom and Dad, and then the other adults in the house Aunt/Uncle so and so. That'd probably help alleviate issues at school with teachers and classmates too. It might not be common for a kid to live with their parents and "aunt and uncle" but I doubt it would raise too many eyebrows. And considering that I want to be a high school English teacher, keeping the poly stuff on the down low is going to be imperative anyways, depending on where we live.

As far as the whole "monkey see monkey do" thing goes, I think there's probably a good chance that a kid might be more likely to grow up and have poly relationships but I doubt it's a guarantee.

One of my friends grew up in a sort of poly household. Her parents are hippies (the yuppy variety, so she says) and they had various aunts and uncles come over from time to time. Her godmother was also a large presence in her life, and was who she would go to to vent about things. She didn't even really recognize that her parents were poly until a few years ago when she learned about poly. She is in a poly relationship now, but she's been in monogamous ones in the past and was about equally happy with either. She feels that she benefited from it, as she's more open minded than she might have been otherwise.
#35 Jan 20 2012 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
I've heard the argument that "humans are wired to be monogamous" plenty of times, and I just don't see it. We aren't swans, we don't pick one mate and stick to them for life. A lot of people claim to be monogamous, but really they are more serial monogamists. They stay with one person at a time, and are faithful to them, but when they get bored they break up and move on to someone else. Or they "settle down" get married, get bored and cheat. I'm not saying that everyone is like this, I just think that the high numbers of infidelity show that humans aren't so wired to be monogamous as people think.

Besides that, look at the thousands of different present and past cultures. A lot (maybe even most) have not been monogamous. Polygamy has been pretty popular both in the present and the past. Polyandry (one wife multiple husbands) has been less popular but there have been cultures where this has existed. Monogamy and marriage has only existed since the development of agriculture and "property."
#36 Jan 20 2012 at 3:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Thanks for the feedback guys. I'll be honest, I hadn't thought of problems that could stem from parents needing to be a united front when it comes to discipline. That is definitely something that would have to be discussed before any kids came into the picture.
It's really not something that comes up until you've got a one year old wailing at the top of their lungs, with one parent trying to negotiate a peaceful resolution to the situation and I'm the other partner suggesting we the couple cave in and just do as the terrorist demands.

Now imagine it with multiple people.

And yes, it really is like a hostile negotiation.
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#37 Jan 20 2012 at 3:37 PM Rating: Good
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
I've heard the argument that "humans are wired to be monogamous" plenty of times, and I just don't see it.


Even within your own poly relationships you think of one as your primary boyfriend and another as secondary. One as husband, another as boyfriend. How much of that is social programming and how much is biological need to attached to one other person I can't say, but it's hard to deny that it exists.


Quote:
A lot of people claim to be monogamous, but really they are more serial monogamists. They stay with one person at a time, and are faithful to them, but when they get bored they break up and move on to someone else.


Correct. But they always think of one other person as their "current love".

Quote:
Besides that, look at the thousands of different present and past cultures. A lot (maybe even most) have not been monogamous. Polygamy has been pretty popular both in the present and the past. Polyandry (one wife multiple husbands) has been less popular but there have been cultures where this has existed. Monogamy and marriage has only existed since the development of agriculture and "property."


As you say, Polyandry has been extremely rare in history. It's usually been Polygamy. But in both cases, it's not about a common love between all participants but the dominant sex in the culture controlling the property and multiple wives/husbands became an extension of that. Again though, in nearly all cases, there was a pecking order. I'd point out that marriage has only really existed (in all forms as we know it) since agriculture, settled societies and the concept of "property". Poly marriages are no different in this regard.

When monogamous marriages (culturally anyway) became more common, and polygamy began to become frowned upon was when concepts of womens rights (in mostly male dominated societies) started to appear. That's not to say that any poly arrangement today would involve sexism, but that it was the key driving force historically.

Edited, Jan 20th 2012 1:38pm by gbaji
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#38 Jan 20 2012 at 3:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Yodabunny wrote:
Kakar wrote:
I don't think any child is even going to be aware of, or even care about, who's sleeping with who at any given point in time.


Yes they will and yes they do. Not because it's taboo, they don't know any better, but they do know and they do care.


I should clarify, it depends on the actual sleeping arrangements. I was referring to just the sex, but yeah if a kid goes looking for mom and finds her not in her bedroom, but dad and "Aunt Judy" are, that would get distressing.

Kakar wrote:
This probably wouldn't even become a factor till around age 8 or so. I'm not expert, just spitballing. The full ramifications probably wouldn't set into their mind until 11 or 12. By that time, you can have a sit down and explain that your lifestyle is a little different than the norm, and what have you.


Yodabunny wrote:
It's not a factor at all. It's not even necessarily a problem. The child would grow up in an atmosphere where multiple concurrent serious partners are the norm and then have to live in a world where they are not. A big part of why monogamous people don't cheat on their spouses is that they feel that forming romantic attachments with multiple people is a betrayal, a child growing up in a poly amorous family may not have that inclination. It wouldn't feel wrong to them, which could be a problem if/when they are in monogamous relationships later in life.


I disagree. Just because couples around someone aren't threatened by open relationships, doesn't necessarily mean the kid in question would feel the same. I think you overestimate how much the environment can affect that level of belief, because so much emotion, and even self-worth is involved.

Yodabunny wrote:
Kakar wrote:
Just because kids see something, doesn't mean they automatically think they have to do it as well. Most kids who grow up in a same sex household don't automatically become gay because that's how they were raised. And just because a kid grows up in a polywhatcumacallit household, doesn't mean they will adopt it as a lifestyle. They will likley be a little broader minded, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.


I don't completely dissagree here but monkey see, monkey do. Children imitate parental figures, it's how they learn and more importantly how their personality is developed (which is pretty much set in stone by age 5).

People tend to gravitate towards lifestyles that they are familiar with. Behavior is learned, predisposition is not. A straight person is not going to become gay because they were raised by gay parents, they have to be pre-disposed. A child with poly amorous parents is much more likely to choose that lifestyle over a monogamous one vs a child who grew up in a more traditional atmosphere, that's behavior. (edited for clarity)


Yeah, imitation is one aspect of how kids learn. But we're talking about behavior that they won't get around to till they are adults, the imitation part of their learning has been done and over with by then. I will agree that it's certainly more likely that someone raised in that environment would be more open to doing the same, but it doesn't mean they will. I'd almost argue that they might even be more inclined to avoid it, particularly if there were relationship issues that they witnessed. But again, pure hypotheticals on my part.

Yodabunny wrote:
I don't have any moral qualms with poly-amorous relationships, I've had them, it's just not commonly accepted and therefore could cause social difficulties for a child raised in that type of environment.

If a single mother has a new man sleeping over every week her kids learn that this is acceptable behavior. There's nothing wrong with that as long as you believe it's acceptable behavior, you just have to be conscious that you are teaching your children that it's ok as well and that will help shape their future choices.

Edited, Jan 20th 2012 2:54pm by Yodabunny


I've known some kids relatively recently, who while they did not grow up in a poly household, but they did grow up witnessing a lot of unfaithful behavior. Both parents regularly took other lovers, and while they bickered about it, it was almost expected by both parties that it would happen. Two of the kids are legal adults now, both in monogomous relationships and are adamant that they will stay that way. The third is still in high school, and it remains to be seen what she will do. Yeah, it's not necessarily the same thing, but I'd argue it's similar enough to consider.
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#39 Jan 20 2012 at 3:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Frankly I think it's a non-issue. I don't think your poly-amorous relationships would survive long after having a child, at the very least they would become much more casual and less relationship-like. Like the hippy parent situation, just "friends" that come over once in a while (more of a swinger situation).

Your personal relationships tend to take a hit once you have children. It's just not worth the energy required to maintain those relationships with a screaming 1 years old succubus fused to your hip.
#40 Jan 20 2012 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
Kakar wrote:
IDrownFish wrote:
Kind of off-topic, but I kind of think that our society is a little too accepting of divorce at the moment. While I agree wholeheartedly that two people who don't want to be together shouldn't stay together for the sake of the kids or anything (my own parents got a divorce when I was about 9), I do think that divorce is taken a bit too leniently nowadays. Marriage shouldn't be something that people say "oh, will if it doesn't work out, we can get a divorce later." It's still saying yes, you want to spend the rest of your life with this one person. Even if later on you realize that was a mistake, you should be going into something like that fully committed.


I think the problem is more people take marriage less seriously, the willingness to divorce so quickly is a result. But I don't really seeing that changing anytime soon, so arguing that is kind of pointless really.


Which is essentially what I was getting at. It's just kind of a shame.
#41 Jan 20 2012 at 3:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Well, there'd only be one actual legal marriage per couple as far as the law is concerned. Everyone else is essentially a friend.


Well, actually with the rise of blended families and gay parents that use an open adoption, that standard is slowly being eroded in the courts. Anecdotally, I am seeing a rise of grandparents, aunts, uncles, older siblings, etc. that are seeking visitation and custody orders to ensure that familial bonds that have been established remain strong in the event of a divorce. And there are judges that are ordering those kinds of visitation because they recognize that it's in the best interest of the child. It's still an uphill battle to get this done, but it's being done. I've even seen an order where grandparents were able to secure visitation when their kid (who's in the military) was deployed so that they could ensure that there's a consistent visitation schedule while the military parent is overseas.

Another analogous situation is when the adopted parents and the birth parents have an open adoption, and the child is allowed to have a relationship with each parent. Of course the adopted parents have all the legal rights.

I can a total cluster@#%^ when there's the death of a legal parent and a question of guardianship arises. Even when there's a nomination of guardians in a will, I can see a fight happening when one of the village parents doesn't agree.

Edited for clarification on gay parents.


Edited, Jan 20th 2012 1:49pm by Thumbelyna
#42 Jan 20 2012 at 4:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Kakar wrote:
I disagree. Just because couples around someone aren't threatened by open relationships, doesn't necessarily mean the kid in question would feel the same. I think you overestimate how much the environment can affect that level of belief, because so much emotion, and even self-worth is involved.


I think you're underestimating environmental effects. Self worth and your emotional reactions are almost entirely based on your moral beliefs. If you grow up with the understanding that 5 people all treating each other as romantic partners is normal/ok then doing the same when you are older will have no effect on your sense of self worth, at all. As adults it's difficult for us to wrap our head around this because our basic belief systems are already in place, they're pretty much fixed by the time we hit kindergarten. Everything after that point is effectively bolted onto one of the blocks we formed in our minds in the early years.

Kakar wrote:
Yeah, imitation is one aspect of how kids learn. But we're talking about behavior that they won't get around to till they are adults, the imitation part of their learning has been done and over with by then. I will agree that it's certainly more likely that someone raised in that environment would be more open to doing the same, but it doesn't mean they will. I'd almost argue that they might even be more inclined to avoid it, particularly if there were relationship issues that they witnessed. But again, pure hypotheticals on my part.


Agreed, could go both ways, but that's still an effect.

Kakar wrote:
I've known some kids relatively recently, who while they did not grow up in a poly household, but they did grow up witnessing a lot of unfaithful behavior. Both parents regularly took other lovers, and while they bickered about it, it was almost expected by both parties that it would happen. Two of the kids are legal adults now, both in monogomous relationships and are adamant that they will stay that way. The third is still in high school, and it remains to be seen what she will do. Yeah, it's not necessarily the same thing, but I'd argue it's similar enough to consider.


There's a very key difference here. In this situation there is very obvious and open betrayal with negative consequences (hurt feelings, fighting etc). In a poly-amorous relationship there is no betrayal, it is all consensual so there is no obvious negative consequence in the child's eyes.
#43 Jan 20 2012 at 4:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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All good points. I'll freely admit I'm probably very biased, and don't have much experience with "open relationships". As far back as I can remember, I was definitely hard wired for monogomy, and frankly wouldn't have it any other way. To be perfectly honest, I always thought that poly relationships were just in place because one person wanted to bump uglies with other people, and the other partner desired/loved the other enough to pretend it was ok with them.

And while I'll concede you've made some valid points.... I'm still right. Because I'm awesome like that.
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#44 Jan 20 2012 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
Provided you know who the Father is, raising a kid with a Mom, Dad, "Uncle", & or "Aunt" would solve the questions issue.

I don't see anything wrong with this, but for the sake of your potential child, you'll need to be discreet about it until they're old enough to understand.
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#45 Jan 20 2012 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
I've heard the argument that "humans are wired to be monogamous" plenty of times, and I just don't see it. We aren't swans, we don't pick one mate and stick to them for life. A lot of people claim to be monogamous, but really they are more serial monogamists. They stay with one person at a time, and are faithful to them, but when they get bored they break up and move on to someone else. Or they "settle down" get married, get bored and cheat. I'm not saying that everyone is like this, I just think that the high numbers of infidelity show that humans aren't so wired to be monogamous as people think.

Besides that, look at the thousands of different present and past cultures. A lot (maybe even most) have not been monogamous. Polygamy has been pretty popular both in the present and the past. Polyandry (one wife multiple husbands) has been less popular but there have been cultures where this has existed. Monogamy and marriage has only existed since the development of agriculture and "property."


Personally, I think you're just doing the flip-side of what monogamist people do when trying to undervalue poly amorous couples.

I think it's an individual preference, not a "humans are supposed to be X way!!!"
#46 Jan 20 2012 at 6:12 PM Rating: Default
Yodabunny wrote:

I think you're underestimating environmental effects. Self worth and your emotional reactions are almost entirely based on your moral beliefs. If you grow up with the understanding that 5 people all treating each other as romantic partners is normal/ok then doing the same when you are older will have no effect on your sense of self worth, at all. As adults it's difficult for us to wrap our head around this because our basic belief systems are already in place, they're pretty much fixed by the time we hit kindergarten. Everything after that point is effectively bolted onto one of the blocks we formed in our minds in the early years.


I'm not sure how accurate that is. If our beliefs and morals are bolted into place by the time we're five, why do people's beliefs, morals and values fluctuate over time?

Granted I'm just going off of my personal experience here, but I certainly didn't grow up in a poly household. I didn't even know that people did this sort of thing until about 4 years ago. I was brought up to believe that you only had sex with people you love, you got married before you had kids, gays were bad, blah blah blah. I went off to college for a year, and started developing my own ideas. Quit school temporarily, had a bunch of different life experiences that caused my views and opinions to fluctuate some more.

When I was 16, I was a naive girl who was still a virgin (not that there's anything wrong with that), didn't drink, didn't do drugs, considered herself to be Christian, and had a primarily conservative POV because that was how I was raised. 12 years later, I am polyamorous, kinky, extremely liberal by American standards, and Wiccan. I don't drink all that much, and I don't smoke pot often, but it has happened. I'd say that's pretty much doing a 180 on the way I was raised. I really don't think I did it out of rebelliousness either. If I had, it wouldn't have lasted this long.

Belkira, it certainly wasn't my intention to denigrate monogamous people. If you felt that way, I apologize. I don't know if humans are wired one way or the other. I think it's probably an individual thing. I know people who are strictly monogamous, people who are strictly poly, and then folks like me who could go either way. I'm certainly happier in a poly relationship, but the monogamous relationships I was in before weren't miserable because I couldn't sleep or develop relationships with other people. They were miserable because that person wasn't a good match for me.
#47 Jan 20 2012 at 6:20 PM Rating: Excellent
Belkira wrote:
PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
I've heard the argument that "humans are wired to be monogamous" plenty of times, and I just don't see it. We aren't swans, we don't pick one mate and stick to them for life. A lot of people claim to be monogamous, but really they are more serial monogamists. They stay with one person at a time, and are faithful to them, but when they get bored they break up and move on to someone else. Or they "settle down" get married, get bored and cheat. I'm not saying that everyone is like this, I just think that the high numbers of infidelity show that humans aren't so wired to be monogamous as people think.

Besides that, look at the thousands of different present and past cultures. A lot (maybe even most) have not been monogamous. Polygamy has been pretty popular both in the present and the past. Polyandry (one wife multiple husbands) has been less popular but there have been cultures where this has existed. Monogamy and marriage has only existed since the development of agriculture and "property."


Personally, I think you're just doing the flip-side of what monogamist people do when trying to undervalue poly amorous couples.

I think it's an individual preference, not a "humans are supposed to be X way!!!"


Yep. It's like being gay/bi/trans, etc etc. You like what you like and you can't explain why. It just is.

So, some humans are hard wired for monogamy, at least serial monogamy. (One at a time is enough.) Others are hardwired for more social, additional relationships. (Many at a time is okay.) Neither one is right or wrong, as long as at all times all parties in all relationships are comfortable and okay with it.

Actually, one of my favorite webcomics, Candi, is dealing with the whole "one partner wants to be open, the other doesn't" issue right now.
#48 Jan 20 2012 at 7:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have an acquaintance who found out as an adult that his parents were poly. They didn't live with their lovers, though.

It was just funny to me that he had no clue that his parents' good friends that they always hung out with were their lovers.


Edit: markup trauma

Edited, Jan 20th 2012 5:43pm by Samira
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#49 Jan 20 2012 at 8:23 PM Rating: Good
Dammit, Catwho, why'd you have to link that webcomic?!?!
#50 Jan 20 2012 at 8:27 PM Rating: Good
Belkira wrote:
Dammit, Catwho, why'd you have to link that webcomic?!?!


Discover the 7 years of archives? Smiley: cool
#51 Jan 20 2012 at 8:32 PM Rating: Excellent
catwho wrote:
Belkira wrote:
Dammit, Catwho, why'd you have to link that webcomic?!?!


Discover the 7 years of archives? Smiley: cool


I'm rating you down every time I see you.

If I have time to come to Zam while I catch up on this comic....
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