The zionist questionFollow

Really, rdm?

1) They were a bulwark against Soviet forces (see; Syria, etc)

2) They won 4(?)wars against those who would destroy them (and won)

3) They regained a homeland to withstand worldwide oppression.

4) They totally had an agenda of racial survival.

5) They have a claim on the land despite the depredations of Nebbuchadnezzer.

/thread

My thoughts on the conflict? Israel is bad, Palestine run by Hamas is infinitely worse. In "the lesser of two evils" sense of things, I support Israel any day over Hamas. Yes, Palestinians have legitimate issues, yes, Israel has behaved badly, violated human rights, and at times skirted international law. But Palestinians now have a government committed to the destruction of Israel, and is willing to use its own innocent people as cannon fodder to do so. F'uck that. Until the Gaza Strip tosses out Hamas, I will never say the Palestinians are committed to a peaceful resolution.

Fatah in the West Bank isn't much better, but at least they're not actively militant like Hamas.

I don't like or support any state based on religion or ethnicity, so the whole concept of Israel bugs me, period.

I also don't support the terrorism that has been practiced by the Palestinians. Although I agree they have legitimate grievances, I am inclined to agree with Joph that continuing to attack Israel with rockets is achieving nothing, and is pretty stupid (not to mention morally wrong).

That said, surely it is not reasonable to support the apartheid that Israel is engaging in - whether you think the land is theirs or not. I don't think it matters who "owns" the country - I still expect basic human rights to be followed and the things Israel has done are racist and wrong.

I do think that Israel has "gotten away with" a lot of bullcrap, but I would wager it has more to do with the West being racist against arabs than anything to do with leftover sympathy from the holocaust.

I'm not so sure that basing a state off religion or ethnicity is any worse than basing it off arbitrary territorial divides or political beliefs, either.

I'm curious what you think Israel is doing that you label it "apartheid". Are you aware that 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab (about 85% of whom are Muslim) and that they coexist peacefully as citizens, get to vote, go to the same schools, identify themselves as Israeli, and don't go around blowing stuff up? It is not that the Israeli state is anti-Muslim, nor that Israeli Muslims are anti-Jew. It's much more correct to say that those Arab Muslims who make up what we commonly refer to as Palestinians are both anti-Jewish *and* anti-Israel.




Except that your entire reason for believing that human rights are being violated does follow from assumptions about rightful ownership of land. It's kinda circular. You've decided that the Palestinians should own the land. As a result Israel is wrong to deny it to them, their attacks on Israel are justified, and Israel's actions to defend themselves and/or hold onto the land is a violation of the Palestinians rights.

And it's even worse than that. Israel has on multiple occasions offered to give the Palestinians more land than they were ever promised or owned before. Yet the Palestinians repeatedly take what is given and then demand more. Then when the Israelis don't give them everything they want, they use that as an excuse to resume attacks on Israel. It's really absurd if you think about it. The Palestinians claim they just want a land to call their own, but history has shown that this isn't the case. They want to wipe out Israel and nothing less will satisfy them.

Religion and ethnicity at least give a nation a sense of cohesion. Just mash some groups together and label it a nation and you get things such as Czechoslovakia or Yugoslavia or even Iraq with its Kurdish northern region.

Goes back to Hamas, right?

The US government doesn't represent me in any single manner. Why should I assume that, because Hamas was elected, it enjoys universal support from its constituents? Why do you assume this?



These aren't even vaguely equitable situations. It'd be more appropriate to compare it to the original US annexation of the Mexican territory that now comprises parts of Arizona.

What does this have to do with anything? Whether or not a citizen agrees with the actions of its government does not magically require other nations to excuse them. If I decide to wander around the mountains of Afghanistan, I can expect that any Taliban I run into is going to treat me based upon the actions of my government towards them pretty much regardless of my own personal politics. This is not unusual, nor special. What's unusual is this bizarre idea that because Israel is involved, suddenly the absolutely normal rules of warfare no longer apply and different standards should be used.


Sorry, but that's just ridiculous. Israel restricts travel of Palestinians into their territory because their leaders have actively chosen to attack Israel. We can say that this sucks and whatnot, but you can't blame Israel for taking the somewhat ordinary actions in response to that. Every other nation would do the exact same thing. It's you who are making an exception here, not me.



You're missing the point. It's not about who, how, or why. It's about the fact that it's absurd to blame those actions on some kind of racial or religious issues, when it's really about leadership and factions. It's political. In my analogy, people of Mexican descent live peacefully in other parts of the US. It's only in this fictional version of Arizona where they're treated different. Clearly, it's not because of their ethnic or cultural origins, but because of the sequence of decisions those living in that area have made.


Same deal with Palestine. There are about a million and a half Arabs living in Israel. They aren't treated differently. There is no apartheid like scenario going on. It's those living in a specific subset of the region who have been engaging in attacks on Israel for decades who in return are treated as enemies of Israel. And why not? This is not about a country oppressing its own citizens based on ethnicity. This is about a group of people opposing a government violently, who happen to themselves be mostly of a single ethnicity.

If there is ethnic/religious bigotry going on, it's demonstrably not coming from Israel, but from Palestine.

Edited, Aug 2nd 2011 7:46pm by gbaji

Well, it ain't the Queen of England.

Yes, our christian deity - a voyeur.

Jesus lives in a pyramid?

That's all Illuminati stuff.