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Group objects to cross placed at Ground Zero.Follow

#1 Jul 29 2011 at 12:12 PM Rating: Excellent
Linky.

Quote:
The group American Atheists and four New Yorkers are suing the states of New York and New Jersey for planning to place a cross--a piece of debris from the World Trade Center--at the 9-11 memorial for the attacks' victims.

The planned memorial--which will at long last be unveiled this September--has received millions in federal money. The Courthouse News Service says the cross--"a T-joint steel girder found in the rubble of the World Trade Center"--was just last week moved from a Catholic church to Ground Zero. The suit says the cross is an insult to the many 9/11 victims who were not Christian and a violation of the separation of church and state; it proposes either removing the cross or setting aside an equal amount of space at the memorial to honor the sacrifices on non-Christian or non-religious victims of the attack.

Two Jewish plaintiffs said they find the cross "offensive and repugnant to their beliefs." The brother of a first responder who died of lung problems after volunteering at Ground Zero for two weeks is also a plaintiff.



"As a survivor of the 9/11 attack and family member of one of the brave responders to the 9/11 attack, Mark Panzarino is appalled that the state has permitted a symbol of Christianity to represent a tragedy that affected all Americans. The Panzarinos unequivocally do not wish for a cross to represent Frank Joseph Panzarino's sacrifice unless it is a Lutheran Cross," he said in the complaint. (A Lutheran cross features a rose-shaped inlay that, in turn, showcases another crucifix; the plaintiffs evidently singled it out to make the point that any such choice of a Christian symbol excludes someone else's belief.)

Secular-minded advocacy has echoed the gist of the Panzarinos' complaint. "The WTC cross has become a Christian icon. It has been blessed by so-called holy men and presented as a reminder that their god, who couldn't be bothered to stop the Muslim terrorists or prevent 3,000 people from being killed in his name, cared only enough to bestow upon us some rubble that resembles a cross," American Atheists President David Silverman said in a statement. "It's a truly ridiculous assertion."

"We are happy to donate a suitable and respectful display and pay all associated costs, and we won't stand idly by while atheists and their families are discounted. We seek only fairness," Silverman wrote on his blog.

The American Center for Law and Justice, a conservative Christian legal advocacy group, said that it intends to file an amicus brief backing the placement of the cross at the memorial. "This lawsuit is deeply flawed and without merit. This is just the latest chapter of an anti-God strategy employed by atheist organizations across the country--a strategy offensive to millions of Americans, a strategy that we're confident ultimately will fail in court," chief counsel Jay Sekulow said.


I just don't understand how this can be justified, personally. I'm not offended by it, but if they're receiving government funds to build a monument at Ground Zero, how can it be ok to place any religious symbol there?
#2 Jul 29 2011 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good
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It can't. US law states that the government can't endorse one religion over any other. Using government money to build a big ***** crucifix is definitely in breech of that.

I love how, there was a huge fuss over a Mosque (I know it wasn't actually a Mosque) being built near ground zero, but it was fine to build a cross on top of it.
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#3 Jul 29 2011 at 12:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm patiently waiting for all the people that were hell bent on being anti-mosque in the general vacinity swarm out of the woodworks to complain about people wanting the cross removed.
Article wrote:
The WTC cross has become a Christian icon. It has been blessed by so-called holy men and presented as a reminder that their god, who couldn't be bothered to stop the Muslim terrorists or prevent 3,000 people from being killed in his name, cared only enough to bestow upon us some rubble that resembles a cross,
That made me chuckle, though.
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#4 Jul 29 2011 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Linky.

[quote]The group American Atheists and four New Yorkers are suing the states of New York and New Jersey for planning to place a cross--a piece of debris from the World Trade Center--at the 9-11 memorial for the attacks' victims.

Two Jewish plaintiffs said they find the cross "offensive and repugnant to their beliefs."
If it smells bad, there might be fix for that.

Too much time, energy and misdirected passion put into these silly symbols....Smiley: oyvey


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#5 Jul 29 2011 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good
What I really wish is that someday someone would sue the federal government to get all of those damned crosses out of the national cemeteries. It's disgusting that they let such over symbols of Christianity to remain in public view on federal property.

EDIT:
Nilatai wrote:
It can't. US law states that the government can't endorse one religion over any other. Using government money to build a big ***** crucifix is definitely in breech of that.

You should really read U.S. law someday. There's nothing in it anywhere that says what you just said.

Edited, Jul 29th 2011 1:26pm by MoebiusLord
#6 Jul 29 2011 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
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MoebiusLord wrote:
What I really wish is that someday someone would sue the federal government to get all of those damned crosses out of the national cemeteries. It's disgusting that they let such over symbols of Christianity to remain in public view on federal property.

I know right. There's a little wreath business in my town that sells the feds like 50,000 wreaths every year to decorate the graves at Arlington. I imagine the wreath to be associated with x-mas ergo a religious symbol - If you're that religion. If not, they're just pretty and they use fresh cedar boughs so they smell really nice.
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#7 Jul 29 2011 at 12:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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MoebiusLord wrote:
What I really wish is that someday someone would sue the federal government to get all of those damned crosses out of the national cemeteries. It's disgusting that they let such over symbols of Christianity to remain in public view on federal property.

They get around that by allowing all manner of religious icons in the national cemeteries including, if you're so inclined, symbols to denote atheism. If you get enough folks to petition, they'll add more.

I'm pretty agnostic (heh) about the OP. The government didn't build a cross, the group is displaying a cross-shaped bit of debris. I suppose the benefit of having a simple icon is that you can randomly find it all over. On the other hand, it's obviously being displayed as a cross. I don't really care either way about it though.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#8 Jul 29 2011 at 12:38 PM Rating: Excellent
As an atheist, I'd be indifferent about the cross were it not for the **** storm the people unleashed when permits were sought to build a Mosque down the street. Given the history, I say **** the cross. It's a memorial, not a Christian memorial. Erect a statue of a rescue worker or something.
#9 Jul 29 2011 at 12:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, they shouldn't put it up. Pretty open-and-shut debate.

What's more interesting, is that apparently American Atheists President David Silverman is a douche.
#10 Jul 29 2011 at 12:49 PM Rating: Default
Eske Esquire wrote:
Yeah, they shouldn't put it up. Pretty open-and-shut debate.

What's more interesting, is that apparently American Atheists President David Silverman is a douche.


Typical ZOG behavior. Smiley: waycool

this is a joke

Edited, Jul 29th 2011 2:54pm by zukunftsangst
#11 Jul 29 2011 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
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MoebiusLord wrote:
EDIT:
Nilatai wrote:
It can't. US law states that the government can't endorse one religion over any other. Using government money to build a big ***** crucifix is definitely in breech of that.

You should really read U.S. law someday. There's nothing in it anywhere that says what you just said.

Edited, Jul 29th 2011 1:26pm by MoebiusLord


Wouldn't this kind of thing be covered by the Establishment clause?
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#12 Jul 29 2011 at 4:30 PM Rating: Decent
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They should just give equally prominent displays to any other group that wants it. Eventually all of the public remnants of Christianity will be so regularly accompanied by brand new multicultural monuments that no one will want to bother with the mess in the first place.

Now we just need a good symbol for atheism.
#13 Jul 29 2011 at 4:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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They can go with this.
Screenshot
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#14 Jul 29 2011 at 4:44 PM Rating: Good
Nilatai wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
EDIT:
Nilatai wrote:
It can't. US law states that the government can't endorse one religion over any other. Using government money to build a big ***** crucifix is definitely in breech of that.

You should really read U.S. law someday. There's nothing in it anywhere that says what you just said.

Wouldn't this kind of thing be covered by the Establishment clause?

It could be argued that it is covered by some interpretations of the establishment clause, but "Congress shall make no law establishing..." is a long way from "federal funds can't be used if the 'r' word is mentioned".

And that's not U.S. law, it's interpretations of the constitution.
#15 Jul 29 2011 at 5:08 PM Rating: Good
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Hokay, gotcha. Thanks!
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Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

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#16 Jul 31 2011 at 2:55 AM Rating: Good
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Individual grave, symbol of the individual's faith, ok to me.

Civic memorial representing the whole community(memorial of mass death site where all victims didn't belong to one faith), symbol of ONE faith, not ok to me.

I like the symbolism of using a bit of debris of a terrorist attack in its memorial. And to Christians, finding a cross shaped bit of debris would have been so lovely and obvious that they didn't think once that using it in a community memorial was an inappropriate appropriation. If I was American I wouldn't condone the debris-as-cross in this context. Not that this is the business of any non-Americans. This must be intensely personal to Americans as Americans.
#17 Jul 31 2011 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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What's with Christians finding symbolism in garbage everywhere, anyways? Christ on a toast, Mary in a moldy shower curtain, a cross made out of rubble...it's like they're admitting that their religion is trash.
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#18 Jul 31 2011 at 10:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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#19 Jul 31 2011 at 12:36 PM Rating: Default
ari please stop capitalising things when they should not be capitalised

it's bad enough dealing with this **** in restaurants without you starting as well
#20 Jul 31 2011 at 1:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Debalic wrote:
What's with Christians finding symbolism in garbage everywhere, anyways? Christ on a toast, Mary in a moldy shower curtain, a cross made out of rubble...it's like they're admitting that their religion is trash.


Easy to interpret. Crispy Christ wants to make sure you eat well. Moldy Mary thinks women shouldn't be slaving away at cleaning house. And the Debris Cross? Well, I think you nailed that one. Smiley: tongue
#21 Jul 31 2011 at 1:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Debalic wrote:
What's with Christians finding symbolism in garbage everywhere, anyways? Christ on a toast, Mary in a moldy shower curtain, a cross made out of rubble...it's like they're admitting that their religion is trash.

And let's not forget Wal-Mart receipts.
#22 Jul 31 2011 at 2:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kavekk wrote:
it's bad enough dealing with this sh*t in restaurants without you starting as well

I like it when they use random quotation marks.

All Hamburgers come with "Cheese & Tomato". Pickles are "Extra!!"
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#23Almalieque, Posted: Jul 31 2011 at 2:47 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Well this is what happens when you try to create an environment that pleases everyone as opposed to just being a Muslim/Christian/atheist/etc nation with an understanding of other people's beliefs.
#24 Jul 31 2011 at 3:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Nadenu wrote:
Debalic wrote:
What's with Christians finding symbolism in garbage everywhere, anyways? Christ on a toast, Mary in a moldy shower curtain, a cross made out of rubble...it's like they're admitting that their religion is trash.

And let's not forget Wal-Mart receipts.

Wow, somebody sure told Him what-for. That's one hell of a shiner.
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publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#25 Jul 31 2011 at 6:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
it's bad enough dealing with this sh*t in restaurants without you starting as well

I like it when they use random quotation marks.

All Hamburgers come with "Cheese & Tomato". Pickles are "Extra!!"


There's a BBQ joint nearby my parents place that has the worst use of quotation marks I've ever laid eyes on:

"We've got the "best" pulled "pork" in town!"

I kid you not.
#26 Jul 31 2011 at 7:08 PM Rating: Good
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
it's bad enough dealing with this sh*t in restaurants without you starting as well

I like it when they use random quotation marks.

All Hamburgers come with "Cheese & Tomato". Pickles are "Extra!!"


There's a BBQ joint nearby my parents place that has the worst use of quotation marks I've ever laid eyes on:

"We've got the "best" pulled "pork" in town!"

I kid you not.


Too bad you can't make it say "We have the best "pulled pork" in town!" and place ads claiming it's a brothel.
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publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
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