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#27 Jul 08 2011 at 5:10 PM Rating: Decent
Eske Esquire wrote:
shintasama wrote:
What do we gain from that other than the ability to launch more money sinks? Being able to fit even a couple hundred people in orbit doesn't mean jack if we don't take care of energy, clean water, pollution, political unrest, and economic concerns on Earth.

There will always be those concerns on earth.
If we had functioning thorium reactors worldwide energy needs would be met for something like 1000yrs? with minimal pollution. It's almost unanimously agreed that averting the upcoming worldwide energy crisis is the number one priority if we want to achieve/maintain future peace/prosperity. We can use the other 950 years to do pointless stuff like planting flags and taking rock samples on other planets.

Eske Esquire wrote:
If we wait to deal with space until those issues are dealt with, then we simply won't be going to space ever. At some point, we're going to need a larger space presence. Better to be ready to do it, and do it well, rather than scramble to try to achieve it.
disagree, and prior precedent

Eske Esquire wrote:
There's that, and then there are the intangible, unknown potential benefits.

Nothing in the last 50 years has been remotely worth the expense, go look up "opportunity cost"

Gabijiji wrote:
I think that the benefits of funding space exploration are much more real than those of hundreds of other programs we spend money on which cost us many many many times more.
I'm all for cutting defense as well!
#28 Jul 08 2011 at 5:12 PM Rating: Good
Nilatai wrote:
Manned Space exploration would have gone a lot further if the Russians had beaten you guys to the moon...


Well, they did just about everything but. First man in space, first satellite, bunch of other firsts.
#29 Jul 08 2011 at 5:57 PM Rating: Decent
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nonwto wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Manned Space exploration would have gone a lot further if the Russians had beaten you guys to the moon...


Well, they did just about everything but. First man in space, first satellite, bunch of other firsts.

Exactly, and the only reason you guys were bothered about getting to the moon first is because they beat you at all that other stuff. If they'd have beaten you to the moon as well, you'd have gotten a man on Mars by 1970.
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#30ThiefX, Posted: Jul 08 2011 at 6:20 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Wow calling a black man "boy".........
#31 Jul 08 2011 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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it's cute that you think Barry can pull of the same con twice.
It's cute that you think any of the current braindead GOP candidates can do something about it Smiley: smile
#32 Jul 08 2011 at 8:14 PM Rating: Good
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shintasama wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
shintasama wrote:
What do we gain from that other than the ability to launch more money sinks? Being able to fit even a couple hundred people in orbit doesn't mean jack if we don't take care of energy, clean water, pollution, political unrest, and economic concerns on Earth.

There will always be those concerns on earth.
If we had functioning thorium reactors worldwide energy needs would be met for something like 1000yrs? with minimal pollution. It's almost unanimously agreed that averting the upcoming worldwide energy crisis is the number one priority if we want to achieve/maintain future peace/prosperity. We can use the other 950 years to do pointless stuff like planting flags and taking rock samples on other planets.

Eske Esquire wrote:
If we wait to deal with space until those issues are dealt with, then we simply won't be going to space ever. At some point, we're going to need a larger space presence. Better to be ready to do it, and do it well, rather than scramble to try to achieve it.
disagree, and prior precedent

Eske Esquire wrote:
There's that, and then there are the intangible, unknown potential benefits.

Nothing in the last 50 years has been remotely worth the expense, go look up "opportunity cost"


Well, that amounted to a whole lot of conjecture. To the last bit, there isn't precedent for what I suggested, so I don't see how past results have the slightest bit of relevance.

Edited, Jul 8th 2011 10:16pm by Eske
#33 Jul 08 2011 at 10:05 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I think that the benefits of funding space exploration are much more real than those of hundreds of other programs we spend money on which cost us many many many times more. I like the idea of getting private industry involved in space, but I also don't think it's a great idea for our government to essentially give up on the venture themselves.

NASA is still doing plenty of unmanned missions and has had great success in comparatively "discount" missions like the Mars rovers. Romantic as it is, without a distinct goal, manned missions "because it's there" are best left for more prosperous times.


That works a hell of a lot better if one half of our political scene doesn't immediately spend every dime and then a ton more we don't have at the slightest hint that we might maybe be able to afford it. Or... In the case of the current administration, even if we quite obviously can't.


I agree, the republicans need to stop their warmongering.
#34 Jul 09 2011 at 5:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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In related news, the House voted to strip funding for the James Webb space telescope which was to replace the Hubble after it ends its mission in 2014. Due to a variety of technical factors, the Hubble's mission can't reasonably be extended much past that date (in fact, NASA hasn't ordered any replacement/maintenance parts). The Hubble will either be nudged into a graveyard orbit or else fixed with rockets to control its descent back to Earth and make sure it doesn't land anywhere unpleasant.

Edited, Jul 9th 2011 6:03pm by Jophiel
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#35 Jul 10 2011 at 7:19 AM Rating: Good
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#36 Jul 10 2011 at 12:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Killing the space program off is about the stupidest possibe move we as a society could ever make. And yet we seem to be doing exactly that. Every major technological innovation in the last 50 years was made possible in whole or in part by space based research. Cell phones, wifi, robot manufacturing techniques, advanced plastics, digital cameras, anything with an LED in it, anything made of newer metal alloys, medicine, "green" energy, sloar panels, wind turbines, etc. If you take away the hige research investment required to get to where we are in space technology, all of those technologies go away.

There is nothing more important to us as a civilization than a thriving, funded space program.

Admittedly, there are major problems with what we have now. The Shuttile should have been replaced 20 years ago at the latest. We need a less expensive way to orbit larger objects. We need a system that is truely 100% reusable, and as much as I like the shuttle, we probably need to rethink that approach to space access.

What we really need on orbit, docked to the ISS, are a pair or so of contained mobile work platforms. Something with reaction mass and engines to change orbits, a shuttle style enclosed bay with a manipulator arm. Something we can move about and park wherever we need it, to retrieve / refuel satilites, aid in construction of larger, interplanetary vessles, orbital refineries, space station expansion, etc. If you remove all the reentry equipment and the wings, then make the bay of the shuttle about 4 times the size it is currently, something like that would be ideal.

We also need a heavy lift rocket. Ares V would have worked well, and would not have had the stability issues that Ares I would have. The DIRECT V3 Jupiter rocket proposal would also do the trick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_(rocket_family)). That or maybe the Falcon heavy. Regardless, we need to be able to orbit larger objects. If we could orbit enough CNC production and orbital mineral refinement capacity, we could start processing asteroids. Once we can do that, we can make whatever the heck we want in space. The ISS is a good research hub, but it isn't anywhere near large enough or expandable enough to be up to that task.

We have plenty of cheap medium and light lift rockets. We do need a human rated transport vehicle. Single Stage to Orbit vehicles are possible, as the cancelled venturestar showed. At the end, they had the thrust and the weight where it needed to be to launch, and the test flights before funding was cut were promising. They aren't really practicle though unless you are just trying to get people and not equipment to orbit. Capsule based rockets have issues in that if something goes horribly wrong, your escape options are limited. A glider, with updated, 2011 era heat shield technology, an ejector seat style escape system, launched from the back of a large carrier aircraft at high altitudes would have the advantage of being completely reusable, and capable of making multiple trips as often as we could fuel and insepct the orbiters. If you simply redesigned the shuttle using Alloys we have available today, with those aforementioned updates for safety, lighter control systems, sensors, computers, engines, etc, then modified one of our existing high speed bomber designs into a carrier aircraft, you would have a system capable of launching from any suitable runway, with less risk of a failed launch abort, no need for an external fuel tank or booster rockets, and with a higher payload capacity. You could probably get enough payload capacity from the upgrades that a pair of atmospheric jet engines could also be installed for controlled landings, which would also serve to increase landing safety.

We also need the robot fleet. The James Webb Space telescope is very, very important to our fundamental research efforts. We need to not only launch that one, but we should build 4 more of them. The hubble has a 10 year waiting list for minutes of research time with any of its instruments. We also need orbital power satilites, Nerva rocket based intersteller probes, astroid monitoring stations. Climate monitoring stations. Our weather satilite network is falling into disrepair. Our GPS satilite network is also ageing. We need mining robots to bring back material from the belts. We need the helium III from the lunar surface. We need to send something to land on europa to **** off the monoliths.

We haven't launched a real purpose built intersteller probe in decades. Especially with Kepler, now that we have the capability to actually find planets that have a real chance of supporting life, we should be sending them everywhere.

Unless we commit to building all of those things, we really won't get the investment back out of our space program that we need. But there is hope still. New modules for the ISS are quietly being proposed and making the rounds. We actually right at this very moment have 3 space stations in orbit technically. 2 are small, sub scale demonstration modules from this company: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigelow_Aerospace with no one onboard, but they are pressurized, heated, aired up, and if someone were able to get to them, they could survive. There is talk that the Direct V3 rocket might actually be built. The Vasimir ion rocket (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VASIMR) looks like it will actually be launched. If we can get even a few nerva engines launched in our lifetime, we have a real shot at actually accomplishing something in space rather than just dinking around the edge of our atmosphere.

There is some hope, but the shuttle program wasn't ready for scrapping. Constellation had issues, but it was far enough along that it also should have been left alone. We can spend trillions to bail out crappy companies that had no effect, but we can't spare the 10 billion we need for an adequate space program that we know will put hundreds of thousands of people to work and historically speaking at least has generated enough new technology to make trillions worth of industries possible?

We were spacemen once. Perhaps our children will be so again.
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#37 Jul 10 2011 at 1:25 PM Rating: Decent
kao wrote:
If you take away the hige research investment required to get to where we are in space technology, all of those technologies go away.
Am I the only one that finds this argument incredibly flimsy? We should always be putting money into science/engineering R&D, but that money can be directly applied to creating new earthbound technologies for a more direct return rather than just getting incidental technology from the space program. It's likely we would have all/most of those technologies and more had we put the money into the NSF (or DoE, see my comments above) or earthbound project instead, without wasting funds on poorly applicable research.

Eske wrote:
Too much of the impetus for proponents of the shuttle program comes from fanboyism and romanticism, IMHO.
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#38 Jul 10 2011 at 1:38 PM Rating: Default
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shintasama wrote:
kao wrote:
If you take away the hige research investment required to get to where we are in space technology, all of those technologies go away.
Am I the only one that finds this argument incredibly flimsy? We should always be putting money into science/engineering R&D, but that money can be directly applied to creating new earthbound technologies for a more direct return rather than just getting incidental technology from the space program. It's likely we would have all/most of those technologies and more had we put the money into the NSF (or DoE, see my comments above) or earthbound project instead, without wasting funds on poorly applicable research.


This.

I'm always a bit skeptical when someone claims that their pet cause/project is the source of all that is good and right in the world.
#39 Jul 10 2011 at 2:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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shintasama wrote:
kao wrote:
If you take away the hige research investment required to get to where we are in space technology, all of those technologies go away.
Am I the only one that finds this argument incredibly flimsy? We should always be putting money into science/engineering R&D, but that money can be directly applied to creating new earthbound technologies for a more direct return rather than just getting incidental technology from the space program. It's likely we would have all/most of those technologies and more had we put the money into the NSF (or DoE, see my comments above) or earthbound project instead, without wasting funds on poorly applicable research.


Ok, lets take a look at some of the driving forces then. If we don't have a need for extremely strong, lightweight metals for rocket launch, or missile launch, there really isn't the need to put the amount of money we did into researching those. Sure, maybe there would have been some need for atmospheric aircraft metal improvement, but once you have titanium, the rest of the need for those metals goes largely away. Now of course we are finding all sorts of uses for them.

GPS satilites, and all their associated technologies go away. So does precision construction using GPS, fast shipping, package tracking and routing, all those things we take for granted. Smoke detectors in homes? Created for use in Skylab in 1970. Cordless power tools? created for the Appolo moon missions. TV broadcasts? Satilite plays a huge role. Charge couple devices were developed directly for use in spy satilites because film was found to be problematic for use in space. Prior to that, there wasn't even any theoretical work on their use. Cat scans? developed for use on astronauts.

The point being that many of those technologies were only created to serve the space program. While it is possible they may have been independantly invented, there was no other need for them at the time, the other potential uses were discovered after the research. Without the space program, most of those things wouldn't exist because there wasn't a need for them to exist.

It's impossible to disprove a "what if?" scenario. We can prove that space funding DID lead to thousands of fundamental technological breakthroughs, many of which would not have been persued without that research foundation to build on.

NSF and DoE are also worthy programs, and should also be funded, but not at the expense of a space program. Besides, the NSF will be pissed if you take away their Alpha Magnetic Spectrometer, otherwise known as the most important physics experement conducted since the manhatten project.
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#40 Jul 10 2011 at 3:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Without the space program, most of those things wouldn't exist because there wasn't a need for them to exist.
You've missed the point, if there is a current/past need, they likely would exist in one form or another (there are many many paths to the same goal) because we would have put the effort into researching them for these other reasons. In fact, it's more likely we would have better technology to suit earthly needs, because it would have been developed for that purpose rather than piggybacked on space exploration. We spent a lot of time engineering around the issue of being in space, when we could have been engineering around the issue of being on earth.

for example:
titanium-> discovered in 1791, recently cheaper, stronger, more manipulatible carbon alloy matrices have been developed out of a desire to not use it

GPS-> GSM, radio, linked local positioning, ultrasound, UWB, DASH7, etcetc, side effects could be greater coverage/capabilities of cell/positioning towers, global wireless, new communication methods etc.

putting a battery in devices and desire for lighter wight batteries isn't particularly novel and would likely have occurred anyways out of a desire for convenience, desire for cost effectiveness rather than "get it done whatever it takes" might have lead to less toxic, less expensive, and more easily manufactured batteries

TV-> signals can be relayed with out satellites, other effects might be better high speed cable permeation

CAT scans-> there are tons and tons of other scans that weren't developed for astronauts, not to say that it or something better wouldn't have been invented anyways, but CAT isn't the best method by any means

Other than maybe GPS, none of these technologies require space travel as a driver/method. There was plenty of innovation before the space program and plenty after it lost relevance. Giving it complete credit for decades of scientific progress is silly.

Kao wrote:
It's impossible to disprove a "what if?" scenario.
Yet you're perfectly willing to assert that we won't have the same level of future progress because of canceling the program?
#41 Jul 10 2011 at 4:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Someone think of the microwaves!!

Seriously, I'm one of those that doesn't want to see our space program go away either. Maybe for me it's just the romantic views I have of it (that and wanting to meet our makers), but I agree with a lot of what Kao said.

When I was in high school I wanted to join the Air Force and then become an astronaut. Going in to space is still something I'd like to put on my bucket list. Damn motion sickness... Smiley: bah
#42 Jul 10 2011 at 5:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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shintasama wrote:
Quote:
Without the space program, most of those things wouldn't exist because there wasn't a need for them to exist.
You've missed the point, if there is a current/past need, they likely would exist in one form or another (there are many many paths to the same goal) because we would have put the effort into researching them for these other reasons. In fact, it's more likely we would have better technology to suit earthly needs, because it would have been developed for that purpose rather than piggybacked on space exploration. We spent a lot of time engineering around the issue of being in space, when we could have been engineering around the issue of being on earth.


No, I got your point. I just happen to think you are 100%, absolutly wrong. Look at historical technological progress pre and post spaceflight. Those radio technologies you mention? Many of the transmitters were developed to asssit communication with moon capsules. The capabilities to work with titanium and other metals? developed, along with CNC technology, for the aerospace industry and by extension the space program. Ignoring the contribution of the space program to your everyday existance is also silly.

The brain drain we will see if we kill off the space program will be profound, and will hurt this country long term. We saw the same stagnation after they stopped building nuclear power plants here. and when manufacturing was exported, etc. etc.

Edited, Jul 10th 2011 4:05pm by Kaolian
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#43 Jul 10 2011 at 5:41 PM Rating: Good
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When one never had to use a rotary dial phone or remember their first taste of Tang, you can't expect them to realize how much of our lives have changed due to research for the space programs though the 50's, 60's and 70's. Sure we would still discover the technologies that came out of our race to get to the moon and research into our solar system, but not as quickly that you could sit here and enjoy games with 3d graphics, and chat on a smart phone that fits in your pocket.

Plus as long as we were in a race for not just going into space, but in a cold war, education funding was considered so important that no one would think of cutting the budget to the bone. Back in the 60's it seem we had better education because everyone was excited about space travel. Now you won't find local TV stations going into a classroom, just to ask the students what they thought of each Apollo mission. (Then too, not every class had a student who's parent work for channel 7 in D.C., but mine did so we got on TV often.)

Also unlike DoD research during a war, which has shown to speed up science research, the Race to explore space is a peaceful project, that isn't focus on killing and maiming ones enemies faster then the other side. Seeing earth from space had a huge impact in making people realize how little our home is and the need to protect our environment. The research in materials alone made much of the recycle programs we have now possible. Sure people recycled glass and paper for years, but the first photos of Earth from space had a small movement grow into plastic recycling being the mainstream and not just something only those nuts crying about Earth being the only home we got, so take care of it.

Then how many of you could read when the first Whole Earth Catalog came out?
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#44 Jul 10 2011 at 8:30 PM Rating: Default
Kao wrote:
No, I got your point. I just happen to think you are 100%, absolutly wrong.
No, you didn't, or you wouldn't still be bringing up stuff about radio transmitters (developed in 1887 BTW, and constantly improving since then). If you understood my point you would be giving me a reason why we couldn't have invented those things or better or different but also equally good by focusing on more practical non-space travel research (for lack of a better example, say underwater cities), and why space has the best opportunity cost (past and current).

Elne wrote:
When one never had to use a rotary dial phone or remember their first taste of Tang, you can't expect them to realize how much of our lives have changed due to research for the space programs though the 50's, 60's and 70's.
It's not an issue of realizing things are different as a result of the space program, it's an issue of thinking that scientific progress stops whenever there isn't a massive ideological conflict.

Elne wrote:
which has shown to speed up science research
#patents/year has been exponentially growing the past ~20 years, while it was fairly stable prior (aka closer to space race). Where is the space race of the 1990/2000s that was necessary to drive this? Where was the technology driving war of the mid 1990s?

Elne wrote:
Back in the 60's it seem we had better education because everyone was excited about space travel
mmm nostalgia goggles...

How many people in the 60's were taking college level classes as high school sophomores? How many people were going on to get S&E degrees? What was the overall level of technological/scientific competence (not just pro-American space jingoism)?

Elne wrote:
in a cold war, education funding was considered so important that no one would think of cutting the budget to the bone.
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#45 Jul 10 2011 at 9:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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shintasama wrote:
Kao wrote:
No, I got your point. I just happen to think you are 100%, absolutly wrong.
No, you didn't, or you wouldn't still be bringing up stuff about radio transmitters (developed in 1887 BTW, and constantly improving since then). If you understood my point you would be giving me a reason why we couldn't have invented those things or better or different but also equally good by focusing on more practical non-space travel research (for lack of a better example, say underwater cities), and why space has the best opportunity cost (past and current).


The significant level of improvement in radio transmitters necessary to punch a signal through to a capsule in orbit around the moon wouldn't have been necessary without a space program. There was no need to improve transmission range past the limits of the atmosphere without it, and those stronger signals, which eventually lead to phased array radars amongst other advances. My point is that the research had no application outside the space program. It would likely have been ignored in favor of other research, especially after the invention of fiber optics and lasers, and we would be missing out on those technologies. Without the space program, we likely never have common ground with the Soviet union, and the cost of their program likely never causes them to collapse. without a space program, we lack the ability to destroy incoming worldkiller asteroids. Without the space program we don't even know enough about them to be worried about their existance in the first place. It's not that we "couldn't" have invented most of the things we ended up inventing via the space program, its that we wouldn't have. Lightweight solar panels? developed for the space program. There are literally thousands of such examples, developed specifically to meet a need of the space program. Necessity is the mother of invention, and without those needs, why invent them? once we had the various items they were quickly repurposed to meet needs that we hadn't even thought of at the time.

Underwater cities have been attempted. The 70's are littered with small scale attempts that were all abandoned due to people realizing that it's much easier to just build what we need on the surface and send people or robots down to harvest the resources we need. Throwing more money at them wouldn't have solved the fungus or corrosion or disease issues with the technology of the time. Some of which ironically was derived from space program components (airlock designs, etc). Do we really need something else pumping polution and heat waste directly into the oceans?

If you want a full on statistical economic model regarding the space program opertunity costs, you are asking the wrong person. Try Gbaji or someone who wants to pullk figures out of their ***. What I do know is that without the space program and missiles, M.A.D goes back to the old strategic air command model, and a whole fleet of bombers looks survivable with sufficient fighters as opposed to a fleet of hard to intercept missiles from submarines that could be anywhere. The soviets decide to nuke us, everyone dies.

Implying that I do not understand your point when I obviously do, and have answered your arguments several times while you completely ignore my points is weak sauce. Try harder.
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#46 Jul 10 2011 at 10:03 PM Rating: Good
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shintasama wrote:
kao wrote:
If you take away the hige research investment required to get to where we are in space technology, all of those technologies go away.
Am I the only one that finds this argument incredibly flimsy? We should always be putting money into science/engineering R&D, but that money can be directly applied to creating new earthbound technologies for a more direct return rather than just getting incidental technology from the space program. It's likely we would have all/most of those technologies and more had we put the money into the NSF (or DoE, see my comments above) or earthbound project instead, without wasting funds on poorly applicable research.

Won't someone please think of the velcro?
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#47 Jul 10 2011 at 10:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's ok shint, we understand that you saw "Alien" one too many times as a kid and space is a scary place.
#48 Jul 10 2011 at 10:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Your entire argument is "we can't prove what would've happened without the space program". You yourself said it's impossible to prove or disprove a "what if" sort of scenario. You then defend the space program based on exactly that sort of scenario. It doesn't follow.
#49 Jul 10 2011 at 10:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Majivo wrote:
Your entire argument is "we can't prove what would've happened without the space program". You yourself said it's impossible to prove or disprove a "what if" sort of scenario. You then defend the space program based on exactly that sort of scenario. It doesn't follow.


So you're basically just ignoring all the demonstrable things that the space program has accompleshed then? Alright.
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#50 Jul 10 2011 at 10:20 PM Rating: Good
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EDIT: Err wait, retraction. I'm too tired to make a coherent point.

Edited, Jul 11th 2011 12:23am by Eske
#51 Jul 11 2011 at 7:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
So you're basically just ignoring all the demonstrable things that the space program has accompleshed then? Alright.

No, I'm ignoring your incredibly emotional argument based on "hurr durr I like planes and rockets". But feel free to ignore your logical inconsistencies if you like, it's never stopped you before.
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