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Why Are Black Women Less Physically Attractive?Follow

#1 May 20 2011 at 6:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Whoa, I'm not going Varus on you, I promise Smiley: laugh

A Psychology Today article went up on the 15th seeking to show and explain that black women are less physically attractive than others races. The link below "shows," among other things, that black women are average looking (but less attractive than other races' women) but have an inflated sense of self-image (compared to other races' women).
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201105/why-are-black-women-less-physically-attractive-other-women&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

(Edit: Note that the original post was taken down. Oddly enough it generated some controversy!)

The article concludes with this conjecture:
Quote:
There are many biological and genetic differences between the races. However, such race differences usually exist in equal measure for both men and women. For example, because they have existed much longer in human evolutionary history, Africans have more mutations in their genomes than other races. And the mutation loads significantly decrease physical attractiveness (because physical attractiveness is a measure of genetic and developmental health). But since both black women and black men have higher mutation loads, it cannot explain why only black women are less physically attractive, while black men are, if anything, more attractive.

The only thing I can think of that might potentially explain the lower average level of physical attractiveness among black women is testosterone. Africans on average have higher levels of testosterone than other races, and testosterone, being an androgen (male hormone), affects the physical attractiveness of men and women differently. Men with higher levels of testosterone have more masculine features and are therefore more physically attractive. In contrast, women with higher levels of testosterone also have more masculine features and are therefore less physically attractive. The race differences in the level of testosterone can therefore potentially explain why black women are less physically attractive than women of other races, while (net of intelligence) black men are more physically attractive than men of other races.
Note that the study did not study testosterone levels in the subjects. And note that the sample is "Add Health respondents," not a random sample of the population.

This ties into (OMG CROSS-THREAD SHENANIGANS!) the conversation about Hawking insulting religion, where I posited that science explains the "how" and not the "why" of the world - and scientists who attempt to explain the "why" are going outside the boundary of their experiments unless they are specifically researching the subjective reasons people do something. I feel this is the exact same case. BUT! That's no fun!

In general, do you have a racial preference, or disposition? I find I mostly date white girls, although my current girlfriend is Filipino and I have traditionally found Indians really attractive. I'd say this is more to do with groups than anything else - this area has a lot of white girls and less of other races (maybe 70% white, 15% Hispanic, 15% other minorities). The town I grew up in was 97% white (well, the school was - we had statistics on it!). Even my Alma Mater was around 80% white. So the folks I interact with regularly are mostly white.


Edited, May 20th 2011 8:11pm by LockeColeMA
#2 May 20 2011 at 6:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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#3 May 20 2011 at 6:39 PM Rating: Good
It's an interesting theory. Personally I think there's plenty of African women who are attractive and plenty of other sex/race combinations that are unattractive. A few months back OkCupid posted a survey on which race and sex combinations sent the most messages and received the most messages. Black women were dead last in receiving messages, and were pretty high up the list on sending messages. From what I've read, the theory of why black women have a harder time finding partners (in the US at least) is because of gender norms. Black women tend to be more aggressive, and men in American culture tend to desire submissive and/or non-aggressive women.

Personally I think that's stupid. It probably is true to a certain extent, but the concept is infuriating. It's just as obnoxious as the men out there who purposefully advertise that other men should try to marry an Asian woman, because they're more submissive than those damn American feminists. Bah.
#4 May 20 2011 at 6:45 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
There are many biological and genetic differences between the races. However, such race differences usually exist in equal measure for both men and women. For example, because they have existed much longer in human evolutionary history, Africans have more mutations in their genomes than other races.


I'm thinking that maybe psychologists should stick to their own field. There's so much wrong with that statement that I'm not even sure where to start.
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#5 May 20 2011 at 8:03 PM Rating: Good
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My feelings on racial preference can be summed up in song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rKETOKAO0A

Plus I find Dr. Bailey much more attractive than the other doctors in Grey's Anatomy. -shrug- Although if the woman is really black I find that a turn off. Just like if she is too white. Hmm... now that I think about it I really don't care too much if she is white either, it's all about that heart and partly about that ***. :P
#6 May 20 2011 at 8:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Black women are unattractive because they're all fat, lazy, welfare-collecting baby-makers. Duh.
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#7 May 20 2011 at 8:23 PM Rating: Decent
gbaji wrote:
Quote:
There are many biological and genetic differences between the races. However, such race differences usually exist in equal measure for both men and women. For example, because they have existed much longer in human evolutionary history, Africans have more mutations in their genomes than other races.


I'm thinking that maybe psychologists should stick to their own field. There's so much wrong with that statement that I'm not even sure where to start.


Oh my gods, I actually agree with something gbaji said! Psychologists do a world of good for our society, but they also do some pretty ****** up **** too. Let's not forget that these people used to consider homosexuality a mental disorder.
#8 May 20 2011 at 8:26 PM Rating: Good
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Wonder Gem PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Quote:
There are many biological and genetic differences between the races. However, such race differences usually exist in equal measure for both men and women. For example, because they have existed much longer in human evolutionary history, Africans have more mutations in their genomes than other races.


I'm thinking that maybe psychologists should stick to their own field. There's so much wrong with that statement that I'm not even sure where to start.


Oh my gods, I actually agree with something gbaji said! Psychologists do a world of good for our society, but they also do some pretty @#%^ed up sh*t too. Let's not forget that these people used to consider homosexuality a mental disorder.
Yeah, gbaji nailed that one. Complete falsehood.
#9 May 20 2011 at 8:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Criminy wrote:
My feelings on racial preference can be summed up in song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rKETOKAO0A
STROM THURMOND!!!
#10 May 20 2011 at 11:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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A brief spat of Googling shows that Africans do have more genetic mutations than the "average":
Biology Direct wrote:
Analyzing 4458 completely sequenced mitochondrial genomes we characterize the genetic diversity of different types of single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) in African (L haplotypes) and non-African (M and N haplotypes) populations. We find that the overall level of polymorphism is higher in the mitochondrial compared to the nuclear genome, although the mitochondrial genome appears to be under stronger selection as indicated by proportionally fewer nonsynonymous than synonymous substitutions. The African mitochondrial genomes show higher heterozygosity, a greater number of polymorphic sites and higher frequencies of polymorphisms for synonymous, benign and damaging polymorphism than non-African genomes.
Journal of Nature wrote:
Here we combine genome-wide polymorphism data from PCR-based exon resequencing, comparative genomic data across mammalian species, and protein structure predictions to estimate the number of functionally consequential single-nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) carried by each of 15 African American (AA) and 20 European American (EA) individuals. We find that AAs show significantly higher levels of nucleotide heterozygosity than do EAs for all categories of functional SNPs considered, including synonymous, non-synonymous, predicted 'benign', predicted 'possibly damaging' and predicted 'probably damaging' SNPs. This result is wholly consistent with previous work showing higher overall levels of nucleotide variation in African populations than in Europeans

I was too lazy to click past page 1 looking for stuff about "Because Africans have been around longer" but this snippet seems to be heading in that direction:
National Health Museum wrote:
"The lack of genetic variation in the Y chromosome region we examined also makes it impossible for us to reconstruct the geographic location of the last common ancestor," Dorit noted. "The African Eve hypothesis, on the other hand, is based on a mutation rate in mitochondria that is at least 10 times faster than the mutation rate in the Y chromosome. Therefore, the greater number of mutations found in the mitochondria of native Africans indicates a longer history and a probable African origin for modern humans. We hope to be able to confirm an African origin by looking at another segment of the Y chromosome that is mutating slightly faster than our original segment, which could reveal subtle regional genetic differences," he said.
National Geographic wrote:
By studying how mutations had accumulated in both mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosomes and determining the rate at which those mutations occur—like counting tree rings—the geneticists made a dramatic conclusion: The populations with the greatest number of mutations were in sub-Saharan Africa. They had the oldest living lineages, which meant they were, beyond the shadow of a genealogical doubt, directly related to the earliest of our traceable ancestors. Their DNA marked the spot where humankind began.

(Bolding mine)

Edited, May 21st 2011 12:39am by Jophiel
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#11 May 21 2011 at 12:40 AM Rating: Good
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White > Hispanic > Black > Asian

Are my preferences, from (generally speaking) most attractive to least. Asians just don't do it for at all, for whatever reason. Pretty atypical for white gamer guys, I think.

On a more serious note, this whole study gets one big Smiley: dubious from me, for a few reasons. Right off the get, I'm always skeptical whenever someone suggests that there's objectivity to attractiveness.

Edited, May 21st 2011 2:43am by Eske

Edited, May 21st 2011 2:43am by Eske
#12 May 21 2011 at 12:59 AM Rating: Default
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I don't know what specifically is supposed to be wrong with the aforementioned.

But are we talking about on average, or ideally? e.g., I'd probably think the ideal Asian woman is more attractive than the ideal white woman, but not on average. Same for black women, really. I don't guess I have a good enough grasp on the "average" woman of each ethnicity to make claims otherwise. I'd imagine there are some folks in developing nations that kill the curve, for example.
#13 May 21 2011 at 3:59 AM Rating: Good
Yeah, my complaint isn't that they claim that there are more mutations in the genes for Africans, although I was skeptical of that. My issue is that they basically say that all black women are unattractive. That idea is idiotic, insulting, and racist.

While beauty may be in the eye of the beholder to a certain extent, there are some traits across most if not all cultures, that are considered attractive. Symmetrical bone structure is one of them I believe, clear skin is definitely one.
#14 May 21 2011 at 4:02 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
A brief spat of Googling shows that Africans do have more genetic mutations than the "average":


To clarify, what it says is that Africans are, as a group, more genetically diverse. That is to say, (on average) one African will have less genetic material in common with another than two whites or asians will with each other. Africans are a less homogeneous group.
#15 May 21 2011 at 4:07 AM Rating: Good
Kachi wrote:
I don't know what specifically is supposed to be wrong with the aforementioned.

But are we talking about on average, or ideally? e.g., I'd probably think the ideal Asian woman is more attractive than the ideal white woman, but not on average. Same for black women, really. I don't guess I have a good enough grasp on the "average" woman of each ethnicity to make claims otherwise. I'd imagine there are some folks in developing nations that kill the curve, for example.


Ideal (whatever ethnicity) woman? What a ridiculous concept.
#16Almalieque, Posted: May 21 2011 at 5:05 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) First, I think everyone agrees that this article is complete and utter BS
#17 May 21 2011 at 6:05 AM Rating: Default
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LockeColeMA wrote:

In general, do you have a racial preference, or disposition? I find I mostly date white girls, although my current girlfriend is Filipino and I have traditionally found Indians really attractive. I'd say this is more to do with groups than anything else - this area has a lot of white girls and less of other races (maybe 70% white, 15% Hispanic, 15% other minorities). The town I grew up in was 97% white (well, the school was - we had statistics on it!). Even my Alma Mater was around 80% white. So the folks I interact with regularly are mostly white.


Edited, May 20th 2011 8:11pm by LockeColeMA



Hmmm.... do I even need to respond?

Yes. Yes I do.

White. Maybe Asian. Hispanic only if they were really, really hot. Black, no way. But I suspect you already knew that.
#18 May 21 2011 at 6:15 AM Rating: Decent
LockeColeMA wrote:
Whoa, I'm not going Varus on you, I promise Smiley: laugh

A Psychology Today article went up on the 15th seeking to show and explain that black women are less physically attractive than others races. The link below "shows," among other things, that black women are average looking (but less attractive than other races' women) but have an inflated sense of self-image(compared to other races' women).


This is something that growing old and dealing with people tends to be true from experience.

Edited, May 21st 2011 8:16am by Tailmon
#19 May 21 2011 at 7:58 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'm thinking that maybe psychologists should stick to their own field. There's so much wrong with that statement that I'm not even sure where to start.


I... agree...

I feel dirty. >.<
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#20 May 21 2011 at 8:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wonder Gem PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
My issue is that they basically say that all black women are unattractive.

No, the article says that black women are less attractive on average.

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with the article (frankly, there's not a lot of information there to go off of) but it's not saying that "all black women are unattractive".
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#21 May 21 2011 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
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#22Almalieque, Posted: May 21 2011 at 8:30 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Lol, this is true.
#23 May 21 2011 at 10:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Wonder Gem PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
My issue is that they basically say that all black women are unattractive.

No, the article says that black women are less attractive on average.

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with the article (frankly, there's not a lot of information there to go off of) but it's not saying that "all black women are unattractive".


That isn't any better.
It isn't any more politically correct, but it might be better. African women were graded to be a 3 on average out of a 1 to 5 scalejust about the middle, while other races were highers. Hence they look more "average," but not "unattractive."

Edit: Oops, the 1-5 scale was for perceived self-image.

Edited, May 21st 2011 12:04pm by LockeColeMA
#24 May 21 2011 at 12:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
That isn't any better.

It may, however, be more accurate. Or may not.

I agree to some extent about the objective/subjective nature of attractiveness but, at the same time, believe that there are physical aspects that make people more attractive on the average than other people. I don't see what there'd even be a question of that. Sure, you can find people who claim that Megan Fox is ugly but I assure you that Megan Fox bikini posters would sell far more briskly than Kathy Bates bikini posters. So is it wrong to say that Ms. Fox is, on average to most people, considered more attractive than Ms. Bates? Is it impossible to believe that some of these markers that cause others to view us as attractive could be genetic and thus linked to heredity?

My immediate area of skepticism for the study is a belief that a significant portion of what we find attractive is cultural. You're exposed to certain looks of people as heroes/heroines/"good" at a young age and those are standard Western "attractive" looks which may not include all of the same traits as people from whatever background. In which case, the mutation/genome/whatever thing ma not be as significant as the article implies. But without seeing any real details from the study, who knows.
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#25 May 21 2011 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
Almalieque wrote:
First, I think everyone agrees that this article is complete and utter BS

Wonder Gem wrote:
Black women tend to be more aggressive, and men in American culture tend to desire submissive and/or non-aggressive women.


While that might be true for some, I see that as a delusional excuse for other reasons. I don't necessarily think it's wrong, I just think it's silly to take out an entire race of women from your selection pool based on "preference".


I just want to make it clear that I did say "tend" not that all black women are like that. That's the stereotype anyways. I'll be perfectly honest in saying that Oregon is probably one of the least racially diverse states in the country, with a pretty racist past including sundown laws. I actually haven't met that many black people. The ones I have met though, I didn't get that impression from them at all. Stereotypes are stereotypes.
#26Almalieque, Posted: May 21 2011 at 1:49 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It's not.
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