Afraid of the Dark? :: Free Realms

#230 May 25 2011 at 9:27 AM Rating: Decent

Kelvyquayo

Imaginary Friend

16,112 posts

Allegory wrote:

The idea of god as being a primarily a benevolent entity is largely a new idea within Christianity, and a product of the Enlightenment and people like Martin Luther. Before that God was mostly a judgmental entity, bringing grace to those who pleased him and just punishment to those who displeased him.

This is totally wrong. It takes any form of studying of some New Testament books to see that. If you are talking about Old Testament then you are still wrong. I imagine most of what you are referring to is how the Jews were punished for dis-obeying God or the people of Sodom and Gomorrah? These things need to be understood from the context of the entire "story" But I'll not go on about those things as I'm sure what you'll say..

Allegory wrote:

I think the message of any philosophy is largely irrelevant, rather it is the effects that matter.

Well if one is trying to discern the Truth of a particular set of beliefs it seems that the message is really the only relevant thing. To judge it based on what people decide to use it for seems folly. Obviously it is the people who are flawed and the very philosophy of which I speak declares this. So you may point your finger at wars and violence caused by the belief in God but I think the benefits far outweigh anything negative that humans do with it.

Allegory wrote:

Even if we agree Christianity promotes a message of only beneficial/loving ideas, if it actually creates a net increase in animosity and violence among people, then it is a force of violence.

This seems logical but it is not the message itself that is causing this violence. It is the violent nature of the people. You are speaking as if Christianity never came along that people would never be violent?
Your other mistake is assuming that being "in Christ' is some kind of psychiatric trick rather than an actual spiritual change that happens in a persons life..

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#231 May 25 2011 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good

__DEL__1681085903309

Scholar

21,720 posts

Blah blah pseudo-intellectual debate blah blah. Don't you guys ever get tired of arguing the same old thing? BORING. Let's about about... leprechauns! Do they exist or don't they? Why are all leprechauns apparently shoemakers? How much gold fits in a pot, exactly? What are the accepted standard dimensions for a typical leprechaun pot? Is the pot bottomless? I need answers.

Edited, May 25th 2011 1:12pm by BrownDuck

#232 May 25 2011 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good

Uglysasquatch

Soulless Internet Tiger

35,474 posts

BrownDuck wrote:

Blah blah pseudo-intellectual debate blah blah. Don't you guys ever get tired of arguing the same old thing? BORING. Let's about about... leprechauns! Do they exist or don't they? Why are all leprechauns apparently shoemakers? How much gold fits in a pot, exactly? What are the accepted standard dimensions for a typical leprechaun pot? Is the pot bottomless? I need answers.

Edited, May 25th 2011 1:12pm by BrownDuck

They are real. I worked with a family of them when I used to serve. They weren't shoemakers though, they were cooks.

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An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come. Victor Hugo

#233 May 25 2011 at 12:37 PM Rating: Default

__DEL__1651450735431

Sage

10,246 posts

Allegory wrote:

There are more religions than just Christianity, quite a few I hear. But even within Christianity there are quite a few mixed messages, especially when you begin to argue over what to take literally and what to take as a metaphor. The idea of god as being a primarily a benevolent entity is largely a new idea within Christianity, and a product of the Enlightenment and people like Martin Luther. Before that God was mostly a judgmental entity, bringing grace to those who pleased him and just punishment to those who displeased him.

I am not talking about other religions, though. I am talking about the one I am most familiar with and have the most time, effort and energy invested in. You're wrong, by the way. It's an idea that is over 2000 years old. And it does not preclude that God is a jealous god. Or that He punishes those that run afoul of His will.

Allegory wrote:

Ultimately I think this comes back to where we differ. I think the message of any philosophy is largely irrelevant, rather it is the effects that matter. Even if we agree Christianity promotes a message of only beneficial/loving ideas, if it actually creates a net increase in animosity and violence among people, then it is a force of violence. I could promote a philosophy of absolute peace that advocates dealing with your animosity by punching inanimate objects instead of people, but even though I state a nonviolent message my advocated practices actually increase people's violent feelings. Even though I clearly state for participants to not be violent, the result is that they feel more rage and are more likely to be violent.

Boy, you got that right, brother. The premise you start with is so off base it makes the rest of the argument topple before you get to the 4th sentence.

#234 May 25 2011 at 12:49 PM Rating: Excellent

Jophiel

Liberal Conspiracy

TILT

BrownDuck wrote:

Blah blah pseudo-intellectual debate blah blah. Don't you guys ever get tired of arguing the same old thing?

Solomon wrote:

All things are wearisome,
more than one can say.
The eye never has enough of seeing,
nor the ear its fill of hearing.
What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
Is there anything of which one can say,
â€œLook! This is something newâ€?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.
No one remembers the former generations,
and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow them.

____________________________

Belkira wrote:

Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.

#235 May 25 2011 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent

__DEL__1651450735431

Sage

10,246 posts

BrownDuck wrote:

Blah blah pseudo-intellectual debate blah blah. Don't you guys ever get tired of arguing the same old thing?

Solomon wrote:

All things are wearisome,
more than one can say.
The eye never has enough of seeing,
nor the ear its fill of hearing.
What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
Is there anything of which one can say,
â€œLook! This is something newâ€?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.
No one remembers the former generations,
and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow them.

Kerry Livgren wrote:

I close my eyes
Only for a moment and the moment's gone
All my dreams
Pass before my eyes a curiosity

Dust in the wind
All they are is dust in the wind

Same old song
Just a drop of water in an endless sea
All we do
Crumbles to the ground though we refuse to see

Dust in the wind
All we are is dust in the wind

Now don't hang on
Nothing lasts forever but the Earth and Sky
It slips away
And all your money won't another minute buy

Dust in the wind
All we are is dust in the wind
Dust in the wind
Everything is dust in the wind

#236 May 25 2011 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent

-REDACTED-

Scholar

1,150 posts

MoebiusLord wrote:

BrownDuck wrote:

Blah blah pseudo-intellectual debate blah blah. Don't you guys ever get tired of arguing the same old thing?

Solomon wrote:

All things are wearisome,
more than one can say.
The eye never has enough of seeing,
nor the ear its fill of hearing.
What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
Is there anything of which one can say,
â€œLook! This is something newâ€?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.
No one remembers the former generations,
and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow them.

Kerry Livgren wrote:

I close my eyes
Only for a moment and the moment's gone
All my dreams
Pass before my eyes a curiosity

Dust in the wind
All they are is dust in the wind

Same old song
Just a drop of water in an endless sea
All we do
Crumbles to the ground though we refuse to see

Dust in the wind
All we are is dust in the wind

Now don't hang on
Nothing lasts forever but the Earth and Sky
It slips away
And all your money won't another minute buy

Dust in the wind
All we are is dust in the wind
Dust in the wind
Everything is dust in the wind

Bruce Springsteen wrote:

Everything dies, baby, that's a fact.
But maybe everything that dies, someday comes back.

#237 May 25 2011 at 1:42 PM Rating: Excellent

Jophiel

Liberal Conspiracy

TILT

MoebiusLord wrote:

Kerry Livgren wrote:

I close my eyes
Only for a moment and the moment's gone
All my dreams
Pass before my eyes a curiosity

Dust in the wind
All they are is dust in the wind

I would have gone with Turn! Turn! Turn! to stick with the Solomon theme but that works, too.

Edited, May 25th 2011 2:43pm by Jophiel

____________________________

Belkira wrote:

Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.

#238 May 25 2011 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good

__DEL__1651450735431

Sage

10,246 posts

Jophiel wrote:

I would have gone with Turn! Turn! Turn! to stick with the Solomon theme but that works, too.

John Winger wrote:

Ma'am, I'm sure there are a lot of ways I've gone that you haven't.

#239 May 25 2011 at 4:47 PM Rating: Excellent

Allegory

Repressed Memories

21,027 posts

Moebius wrote:

You're wrong, by the way. It's an idea that is over 2000 years old. And it does not preclude that God is a jealous god. Or that He punishes those that run afoul of His will.

Kelvyquayo wrote:

Allegory wrote:

The idea of god as being a primarily a benevolent entity is largely a new idea within Christianity, and a product of the Enlightenment and people like Martin Luther. Before that God was mostly a judgmental entity, bringing grace to those who pleased him and just punishment to those who displeased him.

This is totally wrong. It takes any form of studying of some New Testament books to see that. If you are talking about Old Testament then you are still wrong. I imagine most of what you are referring to is how the Jews were punished for dis-obeying God or the people of Sodom and Gomorrah? These things need to be understood from the context of the entire "story" But I'll not go on about those things as I'm sure what you'll say..

I think you've misunderstood. I'm not arguing that I believe the Christian god to be benevolent or judgmental; I'm arguing that this is a change in how others believed him to be. This isn't a theological argument; it's a historical one.

This was kind of at the heart of the protestant reformation. Martin Luther's core belief was that salvation is achieved through grace alone. God doesn't judge us by our actions, and our works do not determine whether we are burned in Hell or ascend to Heaven. Rather, it is God's grace that he sent his son to die for us and only through faith--and faith alone being sufficient--we are saved.

It's also notable that belief in Hell is declining faster than belief in religion

Moebius wrote:

Boy, you got that right, brother. The premise you start with is so off base it makes the rest of the argument topple before you get to the 4th sentence.

It's nice that you have an opinion, but it's a pretty sound statement to say that we should judge forces for the effects they cause and not the way they are marketed. A philosophy that is labeled peaceful--but incites violence--is violent just as a bottle labeled "lemonade"--but filled with poison--is poisonous rather than delicious.

Edited, May 25th 2011 5:53pm by Allegory

#240 May 25 2011 at 6:25 PM Rating: Excellent

paulsol

Sage

4,158 posts

Kelvyquayo wrote:

I believe God is real and for a popular person like Hawking to make such a statement is destructive to people.

If your faith is so strong in your all knowing all powerful God, why would you give 2 sh'its what anyone says about him? Surely your God would be quite capable of dealing with any slights directed at him. And if you feel he is unable, why would you feel the need to worship him?

Kelvyquayo wrote:

I get that most people are spiritually dead anyway and it doesn't matter.

Just because you feel unable to be 'spiritual' without basing your life around the superstitions of desert dwelling savages from the bronze age doesn't mean other people are incapable of finding their own way to becoming excellent beings.

Christianity (or any other faith) has no unique claims whatsoever to 'spirituality'.

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"If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're gonna get selfish, ignorant leaders". Carlin.

#241 May 27 2011 at 5:21 AM Rating: Good

__DEL__1662941810887

Scholar

9,997 posts

Jophiel wrote:

BrownDuck wrote:

Blah blah pseudo-intellectual debate blah blah. Don't you guys ever get tired of arguing the same old thing?

Solomon wrote:

All things are wearisome,
more than one can say.
The eye never has enough of seeing,
nor the ear its fill of hearing.
What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
Is there anything of which one can say,
â€œLook! This is something newâ€?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.
No one remembers the former generations,
and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow them.

I bet Solomon's never seen an iPhone.