idiggory wrote:
Lol, so you spend the whole thread arguing that teachers don't have a full-time workweek, and now that you've been shown to be wrong, you're going to argue that teachers are full-time workers that work less than other full-time workers?
That's odd spin given that you were the one just proven wrong. I have not claimed that teachers don't put in a full work day. I have argued against the claim that they work significantly
more hours than other workers. I have argued that a teacher earning base pay is teaching classes 2/3rds of the school day, which gives them plenty of time in an 8 hour workday to teach those classes *and* get their prep work and grading done. I have never argued that teachers just get to go home after 4 or 5 hours and slack off at home or anything.
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First of all, why is that relevant?
What is relevant is that teachers don't work significantly longer work days than any other full time worker yet they *also* only work 190ish days a year compared to 230ish days for normal full time workers. Thus, it's wrong to claim that they are overworked and underpaid. And guess what? The source you found confirmed that I was right and you were wrong. So I'm not sure why you're still arguing.
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Second of all, I see you are still only considering time on the clock, which is pointless because teachers are expected to put in hours outside of work.
Oh god! Not this again. So is everyone else. Deal with it. Teachers are not special in this regard. If those numbers are just time on campus and don't include hours working from home, then the same can be said for other professions as well. WTF? Any claim you can make about teachers taking home work can be said about most other full time salaried professions. You think no one else does this?
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But why your argument is stupid:
-Full-time work is, legally, defined as 40 hours a week. That's the point at which you gain full-time benefits from an employer. So, NATURALLY, the average number of hours for a full-time worker is more than 40.
You missed the part where I explained that said average was the average including
both part and full time workers. Whereas a similar number reported for teachers includes just teachers, the overwhelming majority of whom are full time. If we look just at full time workers, depending on source, you start getting numbers more like 45-46 hours per week.
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-Your only proof to your claim is an allusion to a post on Yahoo Answers. REALLY?
A post which included source links to the BLS. Whatever. I can link to a survey done by Microsoft (examining workplace efficiency) in which officer workers reported working an average of 45 hours a week if you want. Or another one study showing an average of 46 hours per week for full time professionals (can't remember the exact source for that).
When I post a link, it's usually after searching and finding several different corroborating sources of data out there. I include the one with the "best" information (in this case, the source had links to "official" data, which is stronger than just survey results). I was giving you the best case for your side. I absolutely could link to a dozen sources with much higher numbers if I wanted to.
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-We are comparing annual wages. We have shown that teachers, at least those in Wisconsin, put in at least 41.5 hours a week on average (which means that either the vast majority hover around that area, or that some teachers put in many, many, many more). Yet the DBL page I linked (the first time) stated that 40+ hour work weeks were not at all unusual for teachers.
Yes. And 41.5 is more than 40. I'm not sure why you think there's a discrepancy there. Also "not unusual" isn't a very accurate statement, is it? So if one in 5 teachers works 50 hours a week, that's "not unusual", right? But if the other 4 each work 38 hours, don't we still come out with an average that's just a bit over 40? Why yes, we do!
Which is precisely the point I've been making all along. Teachers who don't take on extra classes or extracurricular activities certainly can end out working less than 40 hours each week on average. Most school days are 6.5-7
hours long. Teachers tend to have to get to school about 15 minutes before class starts, and depending on whether they're teaching final period, may or may not have to stay 15 minutes after to close up the classroom (of course, they *can* come in earlier and stay later, but that's their choice). The point is that a teacher only teaching the base units can work less than 8 hours a day, still get all their grading done and all their prep work done as well. In theory, if they don't teach first or last period, they can come in later and leave earlier as well. That depends on the policies of the school district they are in.
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Say a teacher works, on average, 40 hours a week and earns 55k a year, the higher end of the national median.
Engineers,
according to DBL, usually work 40 hours a week (possibly with more as they approach deadlines).
Lol! Yeah. Do you know how often those deadlines or design standards may require extra hours? Um... Pretty much every single week. Teachers never have to work longer hours than they choose to. There are very few external and unpredictable factors which may require them to work late into the night, or over the weekend. This happens to engineers all the time (heck. It happens to a lot of other professions).
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According to DBL, the median annual wage for
Civil Engineers is $76,590.
So, teachers and civil engineers have roughly the same number of hours a week. The degree investment required is the same for both. Yet the average annual wage for a civil engineer is 20k more. Even if you adjust for the different number of work weeks, civil engineers get a higher annual wage.
Sure. It's pretty comparable though, isn't it? Remember what started this? I said that teachers made "slightly less" than <list of other professions>. Also recall that the averages and medians we're playing with for teachers are the "base pay" numbers. I've already explained at great length that most teacher can and do increase that pay.
What you're doing is still picking the best in one direction and in the other, even when they don't match up. The average hours is the actual reported average hours actually worked by teachers on the job. But the pay rates are calculations based on the pay ladders used for public school teacher pay, and assumes a less than full teaching schedule (or I should say that a "full" teaching schedule assumes teaching about 2/3rds of the class time during each school day). But most teachers (especially high school and middle school) teach more than that base number. The "average hours" figure takes this into account, but the "average pay" calculation does not.
When we do, we realize that teachers often make another 18-30% more salary than is listed (without working any more total weeks). Add that to the 21% more their salary is "worth" due to less weeks worked per year, and they are better compensated than most other fields which require the same amount of education.
I've only explained this logic like 5 times in this thread so far. And so far you haven't actually presented a single fact which refutes what I've said. Which makes one wonder why I have to keep repeating myself here.