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#377 Apr 11 2011 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
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paulsol wrote:
You really believe that Obama/Sarkozy/Cameron are dropping bombs on Libya because they care about Libyan civilians? Any civilians?

HahahahahahahahahHahahahahahahahahHahahahahahahahahHahahahahahahahah.

DIck.

Tell that to the people who say we deposed Saddam for his human rights violations...
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#378 Apr 11 2011 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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varusword75 wrote:
Jophed,

Quote:
There's a certain delicious irony to the fact that Gbaji spent seven years saying "Just WAIT! You can't comment on the war now... you have to WAIT!" and is now howling "STALEMATE! I called it!" after two weeks


How long did it take the military to topple Saddam while W was running the show?
Just shy of 9 months? The invasion began March 19th and he was captured December 14th, that's 271 days or 8 months, 26 days.

Aces.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#379 Apr 11 2011 at 11:55 AM Rating: Decent
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varusword75 wrote:
Paula,

Quote:
Islam is incapable of having its 'enlightenment'


Islam and enlightment should never be used in the same sentence.



lololol you do know Islam is the new faith, built on the same exact **** as the Christian faith, which was built on the exact same **** as the Jewish faith, which was originally stolen from the Egyptian Gods way back in the day. Judaism led to the STORY of Jesus and Christians, as much as the bible led to the STORY of Muhammad and Muslims.

They are all the exact same ******* religion, worshiping the exact same God. They all share the same 10 commandments brought by Moses, Christians and Muslims all share the same teachings of Jesus THE MAN (the prophet) and Muslims have gone one more prophet ahead. They simply believe that all these men were speakers of the word of God, unlike the Christians who believe that Jesus is God in the flesh.

And all of these stories were ripped off from Horus and Set from Ancient Egyptian Mythos, and Religion is a ******* joke, especially when you all worship the same imaginary man living in the clouds.
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#380 Apr 11 2011 at 12:05 PM Rating: Default
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RDD wrote:
unlike the Christians who believe that Jesus is God in the flesh.


Can you expound on this?
#381 Apr 11 2011 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
Almalieque wrote:
RDD wrote:
unlike the Christians who believe that Jesus is God in the flesh.


Can you expound on this?


Really? This is the first time you've heard that Jesus was god in the flesh? Smiley: dubious
#382 Apr 11 2011 at 1:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
RDD wrote:
unlike the Christians who believe that Jesus is God in the flesh.


Can you expound on this?


Really? This is the first time you've heard that Jesus was god in the flesh? Smiley: dubious


Om nom nom, Catholicism Smiley: grin
#383REDACTED, Posted: Apr 11 2011 at 1:13 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) r2d2,
#384 Apr 11 2011 at 1:42 PM Rating: Good
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paulsol wrote:
LeWoVoc wrote:
Did you bother to read the article you linked?

Islam needs a revolution like Christianity had. It needs its enlightenment. These events may very well be the beginning of that enlightenment. To throw this possibility away on the assumption that we're merely up to our old tricks again is beyond ridiculous, even for you. By all means, though, keep telling yourself the evil west is the cause of Islamic extremism.


So you believe that Islam is incapable of having its 'enlightenment' without the aid of the USA/France/Nato?

You have so little respect for Muslims that you wont allow themselves to deal with their grievances with each other without the guiding hand of the caring sharing 'West' to push them along in the right direction?

You really believe that Obama/Sarkozy/Cameron are dropping bombs on Libya because they care about Libyan civilians? Any civilians?

HahahahahahahahahHahahahahahahahahHahahahahahahahahHahahahahahahahah.

DIck.
You made my post about something it was not. You linked to an article claiming "We're up to our old tricks again, the rebels are probably bad!" and I told you these uprisings may be the beginning of an Islamic enlightenment. You don't seem to understand that a result of a non-reformed Islam taking hold of the world is not just some branch of multiculturalism on which we all sit unabated and free in our ideology. The extremist force is out not only to kill people, but to kill freedom. They don't hate our freedom, as the mono-browed former president tried to put it; they hate freedom. The Jihadist force IS an imperialistic force that we didn't cause.

If not allowing Ghaddafi to slaughter the citizens of "his" country is showing no respect for the Muslims' right to deal with themselves, then you're damned correct in saying I don't. It's a good thing his nuclear ******* is locked down in Oak Ridge, too. Do I have any illusions that the politicians involved actually care? No. Not at all. But try not to obfuscate the issue.
#385 Apr 11 2011 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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varusword75 wrote:
bsphl,

You neglected to mention that most of that 8 months he was in hiding under a mountain in a small cave. From the moment the US went in Saddam hid.
Interesting that you'd have better intelligence than the US military concerning the whereabouts of Saddam prior to his capture. Even more interesting that you're continuing to create new misspellings for "bsphil" only after being called out on it.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#386 Apr 11 2011 at 2:45 PM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
bsphl,

You neglected to mention that most of that 8 months he was in hiding under a mountain in a small cave. From the moment the US went in Saddam hid.
Interesting that you'd have better intelligence than the US military concerning the whereabouts of Saddam prior to his capture. Even more interesting that you're continuing to create new misspellings for "bsphil" only after being called out on it.


I think the larger point, which is being somewhat ignored, is that Saddam was not leading a military force against us anymore. That's in significant contrast to what's going on in Libya, where we're fighting against Khaddafi's forces, but have no intention apparently to actually defeat those forces. Which seems to me like a complete CF in waiting.
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#387 Apr 11 2011 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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Does varus even know any Muslims?
#388 Apr 11 2011 at 2:56 PM Rating: Excellent
Sweetums wrote:
Does varus even know any Muslims?


No. He doesn't know any labias, either. Er, I mean Lybians. My bad.
#389 Apr 11 2011 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
we're fighting against Khaddafi's forces, but have no intention apparently to actually defeat those forces. Which seems to me like a complete CF in waiting.
Yea, I just can't see how this is going to turn out well for you guys unless the rebels pull off a miracle on their own. Either you're in to remove him or you get out altogether.
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#390REDACTED, Posted: Apr 11 2011 at 3:09 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Sweety and Tulip,
#391REDACTED, Posted: Apr 11 2011 at 3:10 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Ugly,
#392 Apr 11 2011 at 3:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:
I don't know any mass murderers either. That doesn't mass murderers shouldn't be executed for their crimes.
I don't know any Tennesseans, but I know they shouldn't be allowed in any petting zoos.

Edited, Apr 11th 2011 5:19pm by lolgaxe
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#393 Apr 11 2011 at 3:28 PM Rating: Excellent
lolgaxe wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
I don't know any mass murderers either. That doesn't mass murderers shouldn't be executed for their crimes.
I don't know any Tennesseans, but I know they shouldn't be allowed in any petting zoos.

Edited, Apr 11th 2011 5:19pm by lolgaxe


Smiley: glare
#394 Apr 11 2011 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
I don't know any mass murderers either. That doesn't mass murderers shouldn't be executed for their crimes.
I don't know any Tennesseans, but I know they shouldn't be allowed in any petting zoos.
Smiley: glare
Don't blame me, I'm just following the faulty logic. Smiley: flowers
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George Carlin wrote:
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#395 Apr 11 2011 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
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varusword75 wrote:
Sweety and Tulip,

Quote:
Does varus even know any Muslims?


I don't know any mass murderers either. That doesn't mass murderers shouldn't be executed for their crimes.


SIR, HE WAS DRIVING...

WHILE MUSLIM
#396 Apr 11 2011 at 4:08 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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varusword75 wrote:
phil,

Quote:
Interesting that you'd have better intelligence than the US military


Interesting that you're supporting a military action that the US congress hasn't even voted on yet. The point was we went into Iraq to take Saddam out and give the country back to it's citizens. What's Obama's goal in Libya? If it's to take down the current regime he needs to stop cowering behind the UN and France (of all countries) and send in the troops to get the job done.
I take it you opposed Desert Storm as well? Smiley: lol

Obama has a 60 day window to take military action in Libya without approval from Congress. Totally not surprised that you'd selectively forget this fact.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#397 Apr 11 2011 at 4:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
gbaji wrote:
we're fighting against Khaddafi's forces, but have no intention apparently to actually defeat those forces. Which seems to me like a complete CF in waiting.
Yea, I just can't see how this is going to turn out well for you guys unless the rebels pull off a miracle on their own. Either you're in to remove him or you get out altogether.


And that's honestly my concern with this whole endeavor. I understand why Obama chose this course of action. It has the virtue of appearing to just provide humanitarian aid, while attempting to achieve an objective we'd like (toppling Khaddafi). The problem, as I stated several weeks ago, was that it came too late and missed the window when the rebels had momentum on their side. Now, the most likely result is to simple extend the warfare in that country with no clear victor emerging.


I don't think there's anyone who's honestly fooled into thinking this is really purely about humanitarian ends. It's a face saving excuse for taking action to remove Khaddafi and everyone knows it. Had it worked, that would have been fine and we'd be moving on. But it didn't work and now we're kinda "stuck" with a mission which has an official objective and methodology that isn't sufficient to achieve what everyone knows is the real objective. Which leaves us with basically three options:

1. We chuck the facade, go all in, and topple Khaddafi and deal with the consequences later.

2. We bail on Libya, let Khaddafi defeat the rebels and then attempt to apply humanitarian assistance after the fact to minimize reprisals.

3. We continue to maintain the no-fly zone and humanitarian aid/protection and hope things conclude somehow down the line.


None of those are good options. 1 and 2 could have been chosen a month ago and would have been more successful had we chosen them as a course of action from the start. The natural tendency to avoid a course of action which looks like a reversal makes these difficult choices, at best. Option 3 is just horrific since it still commits forces and material to the conflict but takes the outcome more or less completely out of our hands.


I suspect that what they'll try is option 1 while attempting to still paint it as just protecting civilians. Basically, slowly ramp up where/how you conduct air strikes so as to basically use them in more offensive ways, but continue to label them as protective strikes. I'm not sure how well that's going to go over, and it's certainly not going to fool much of anyone, but it's probably the best approach from a face saving perspective.
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#398 Apr 11 2011 at 4:31 PM Rating: Default
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bsphil wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
phil,

Quote:
Interesting that you'd have better intelligence than the US military


Interesting that you're supporting a military action that the US congress hasn't even voted on yet. The point was we went into Iraq to take Saddam out and give the country back to it's citizens. What's Obama's goal in Libya? If it's to take down the current regime he needs to stop cowering behind the UN and France (of all countries) and send in the troops to get the job done.
I take it you opposed Desert Storm as well?


The objective in Desert Storm was to liberate Kuwait from Iraqi control (and damage the Iraqi military enough to make renewed attacks unlikely in the short term). While lots of people wanted Saddam to be removed, that was never the actual objective of that operation.

Quote:
Obama has a 60 day window to take military action in Libya without approval from Congress. Totally not surprised that you'd selectively forget this fact.


He's really pushing the bounds of what kind of actions are allowable though. I suppose it does depend on how much you actually bought the "humanitarian" claims. Past presidents have been very very cautious about using that power and to make sure that congress approves of actions of this nature as soon as possible. Obama seems to be approaching this as a "I can do whatever I want for 60 days before the piper comes along and takes away my toys", which I'm pretty sure is not what most people think is a responsible use of executive authority in this area.
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King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#399REDACTED, Posted: Apr 12 2011 at 9:34 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Let me break this down for Dems who like to hate on W.
#400 Apr 12 2011 at 9:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:
Let me break this down for Dems who like to hate on W.


Sept 11 2001 radical muslims based out of afghanistan attacked the US.

Sept 20 2001 W went to congress for approval to move militarily against afghanistan.

Oct 07 2001 Air attacks commenced.



What's is the current timelime for Obama's current actions in Lybia?



A stunningly complete analysis except for the fact that most people believe the Afghanistan war was justified, but the Iraq war was what most Democrats have a problem with. Smiley: schooled
#401REDACTED, Posted: Apr 12 2011 at 10:37 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Locked,
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