Kachi wrote:
But by that same standard, factors like intelligence severely impact the level of effort required. When you're not very intelligent, it takes a lot more effort to learn the material and do the required work. And then if you compound that with requiring effort to work your way through school, for many people that's just too much
This.
Gbaji wrote:
Except that I don't really care why they do it. Just that it's indicative of not putting in enough effort to finish.
I'm assuming that you didn't read the rest of my post before posting that.
Gbaji wrote:
Huh? If their pace of learning is so slow that they can't retain sufficient course material to pass the class over the course of a semester, then they kinda fall into the "mentally incapable of passing the class" category. What part of "If there is some amount of effort they could have put in which would have allowed them to pass the class, but they didn't pass the class, then they didn't put in enough effort" did you not understand?
Seriously? Someone can study all day and night and not grasp the concept in one semester. You can't say that they didn't put in enough effort nor does that make them "mentally incapable of passing the class". You do realize that many students often retake classes? It's very possible that the first attempt completely blew right over their heads and caught it the second time around.
Crap, I had to retake a class that I was so lost in that I didn't even know what I was studying until the second time and I killed that class the second time around.
Gbaji wrote:
Of course I can. It must be one or the other. Either they are physically capable of meeting those requirements in the time alloted, or they aren't. And if they are, and they fail to do so, then they didn't put in sufficient effort to do so.
I suspect you may be getting hung up on exactly what I said I didn't want to debate with you: The definition of "effort". I'm not using the word to mean "how hard you are trying". I'm using it to mean "doing everything you need to do to succeed". Whatever that is, if you did enough of it, you'd succeed as long as it's possible to do so at all.
It's a very simple logical relationship. Either a task can be accomplished with sufficient effort, or it cannot. Thus, if you fail, it must have been because it was impossible to accomplish, or insufficient effort was put in. There are no other conditions to consider. I'm not going to examine the details at all.
Usually, when people try to argue specifics for why they failed even though they tried as hard as they could, they're making excuses.
I suspect you may be getting hung up on exactly what I said I didn't want to debate with you: The definition of "effort". I'm not using the word to mean "how hard you are trying". I'm using it to mean "doing everything you need to do to succeed". Whatever that is, if you did enough of it, you'd succeed as long as it's possible to do so at all.
It's a very simple logical relationship. Either a task can be accomplished with sufficient effort, or it cannot. Thus, if you fail, it must have been because it was impossible to accomplish, or insufficient effort was put in. There are no other conditions to consider. I'm not going to examine the details at all.
Usually, when people try to argue specifics for why they failed even though they tried as hard as they could, they're making excuses.
Then we're obviously talking about two different things. I'm using your first definition of effort because this whole argument is on your first definition of effort as no one defines effort as your second definition because you made it up.
Ugly wrote:
We weren't having a debate at all. I'm expressing my opinion about the nature of effort and how it pertains to success. I'm correlating the effort required to obtain a college degree with the sort of effort that employers want to see in their workers and suggesting that this is why college degrees are useful to them and *not* because of the specific information and knowledge gained along the way.
I don't really care at all why people drop out of college.
I don't really care at all why people drop out of college.
I was in reference to Ugly. I thought it was obvious that you "Butt in" in the conversation and that "our" was with me and him.
Gbaji wrote:
Don't really care what details happen along the way Alma. I'm not arguing about why they drop out. I'm merely commenting on why effort equates to success and why a degree therefore is a useful measurement of the likely effort an employer might get out of an employee. That's it. I honestly don't care about *why* a student chooses to do anything he or she does along the way.
Well keep your comments to yourself. Don't interject with a made up definition of "effort" and then claim that you're not arguing about the topic that has been argued about.
