Question for gbajiFollow

Do you even need an undergrad to practice law? I thought you only had to pass the state Bar exam. I honestly don't know.

Ok, I did. It still means the same thing.


Lol, yet when I said that many went to school because it was the thing to do or what was expected of them, you tried to dispute it. As I've stated before, and am doing so now once again, you never truly know what you're arguing for or against.

One still valued putting forth an effort and one did not. One was smarter than the other. One was in an easier program. One was smarter than me because they weren't stupid enough to argue with a rock, again.

If one put in the effort and apssed and one did not put in the effort to pass, why did they not put in the effort? Nice try Twinkledick.

Oh for Chrissakes! You guys don't even fucking disagree!

Ok, fine. If you say that you agree with "Many students fail out of college because they underestimated college and NOT because they lost interest or quit. Furthermore, that percentage of students is higher than the percentage of students who fail out because they stopped caring", then I'll say that I agree with you.

For me it was the latter, I got a couple years in going for a law degree, and just couldn't afford to work as much as necessary, and still maintain my grades, so I chose to quit.


What I have to say is anecdotal at best, but the employers that I've spoken with about this very subject say it's less about the degree, and more about showing the inclination to finish something you've started.

Edited, Mar 18th 2011 5:31pm by Kastigir

Absolutely. I probably should have extended my earlier statement to say "put in the effort to finish college". It's about setting a goal (getting a degree) and accomplishing it. I don't think it's surprising to find that many employers might see that as a positive thing for a potential employee. :)

I get your point, but my entire argument is that people put in the amount of effort that they THINK will pass them, which ends up actually failing them.

So, if a person spends what they think as, excessive amounts of effort to pass a class, but then fails, is it because they didn't put in the amount of effort or because they just failed?

For example, I hate running and in the Army we have to run. If I push my body to the limit and still do not meet the required time, you can't say that I didn't try hard enough, I did, I just failed.

What you are seeing, which is correct, is that instead of failing out of college, people usually just keep changing majors until they find one that's "right for them". This can be mutually exclusive to interest. I actually love to study Physics, but I always perform poorly, then I lose interest.

Well, that's kind of my argument as opposed to simply losing interest and dropping out.



That would only be true if everyone learned the same way at the same pace.



That's only true if everyone's bodies worked the same way. The biggest thing in physical fitness for the military isn't passing PT exams, but meeting height and weight standards. Some strategies work on some people, others don't, but you can't say that they didn't put in "enough effort" and/or is incapable of passing.



Not at all. Our debate was over the reason on why people drop out. Your statement was about effort and that you don't see many people failing out because "college was too hard" and I responded because students typically change majors before dropping out.

If the degree is nigh worthless, why do they filter out all of those perfectly good candidates based on that criteria?

Re: all this talk about effort vs. whatever else-- I really thought this should be obvious to everyone, but when you say things like, "It just takes EFFORT," you're kind of downplaying the amount of effort it takes. I mean, if you say that school takes MONEY, well, it just takes EFFORT to get the MONEY. If you're going to simplify it that way, then sure, all it takes is effort. You may not be rich or have parents to pay your way, but if you just put forth enough effort, you can do it too.

But by that same standard, factors like intelligence severely impact the level of effort required. When you're not very intelligent, it takes a lot more effort to learn the material and do the required work. And then if you compound that with requiring effort to work your way through school, for many people that's just too much. However, most people are fully capable of getting through college on grants, loans, scholarships, and a part-time job, or some combination thereof.

Except that I don't really care why they do it. Just that it's indicative of not putting in enough effort to finish.



Huh? If their pace of learning is so slow that they can't retain sufficient course material to pass the class over the course of a semester, then they kinda fall into the "mentally incapable of passing the class" category. What part of "If there is some amount of effort they could have put in which would have allowed them to pass the class, but they didn't pass the class, then they didn't put in enough effort" did you not understand?





Of course I can. It must be one or the other. Either they are physically capable of meeting those requirements in the time alloted, or they aren't. And if they are, and they fail to do so, then they didn't put in sufficient effort to do so.

I suspect you may be getting hung up on exactly what I said I didn't want to debate with you: The definition of "effort". I'm not using the word to mean "how hard you are trying". I'm using it to mean "doing everything you need to do to succeed". Whatever that is, if you did enough of it, you'd succeed as long as it's possible to do so at all.

It's a very simple logical relationship. Either a task can be accomplished with sufficient effort, or it cannot. Thus, if you fail, it must have been because it was impossible to accomplish, or insufficient effort was put in. There are no other conditions to consider. I'm not going to examine the details at all.

Usually, when people try to argue specifics for why they failed even though they tried as hard as they could, they're making excuses.



We weren't having a debate at all. I'm expressing my opinion about the nature of effort and how it pertains to success. I'm correlating the effort required to obtain a college degree with the sort of effort that employers want to see in their workers and suggesting that this is why college degrees are useful to them and *not* because of the specific information and knowledge gained along the way.

I don't really care at all why people drop out of college.



Don't really care what details happen along the way Alma. I'm not arguing about why they drop out. I'm merely commenting on why effort equates to success and why a degree therefore is a useful measurement of the likely effort an employer might get out of an employee. That's it. I honestly don't care about *why* a student chooses to do anything he or she does along the way.

Edited, Mar 18th 2011 5:39pm by gbaji