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Private sector designing spacecraft. Yeah, about that....Follow

#27 Mar 10 2011 at 2:35 PM Rating: Decent
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MoebiusLord wrote:
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.


That's kind of the point. If you're content with limited advancement fine. I for one would like to see the human race expand its borders at some point, business isn't going to make that happen without a financial carrot. We can't see that carrot yet because no one has been there. Governments find carrots, business does the rest.
#28 Mar 10 2011 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
Yodabunny wrote:
I for one would like to see

And I for one would like to see my money stay in my pocket. It's just one more example of the fundamental difference between people who would like the government to decide where their money gets spent and those who think they should be the ones to decide where to spend. We can wave at each other from opposite sides.
#29 Mar 10 2011 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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MoebiusLord wrote:
Yodabunny wrote:
The space transportation industry should be private. It would be much more efficient and advance at a much greater pace. That being said I think governments should still have space programs. There are things that are just not commercially viable until they've been done once by a government entity willing to dump money into something just to advance human knowledge.

Just think of where we could be right now if flat screen TVs were government run before they became commercially viable. It could have saved those suckers who shelled out $15k for the first LCDs a pantload of money. Or cars. I'd much prefer to have had the government designing and developing them until the industry became profitable. Wait, what?


Yay, lets be hyperbolic.

Cus T.V.s and cars are totally the same as rockets.
#30 Mar 10 2011 at 4:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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The US space program has the following unmet needs:

  • Something to lift very large objects into space, i.e. a heavy lift rocket similar to the payload capacity of a saturn V rocket.
  • Some sort of mobile work platform in space for missions such as repairing the hubble telescope or building Infrastructure like the ISS.
  • Some form of 100% reusable space transportation system, where fuel and chemicals are our only real operating costs (no throw away fuel tanks or boosters)


I list the heavy lift rocket first, because that remains our biggest lacking capability since the 1960's. If we had a true heavy lift rocket available, not only could we orbit much larger and more capable satilites, but we could orbit larger manned habitat segments up to twice the size of the US Desteny laboratory in the ISS. We need that capability for a variety of reasons if we ever intend to go after the helium III reserves on the moon, or attempt any form of asteroid mining and refinement in space, or spaceborne manufacturing.

The mobile work platform is necessary to save costs. there are thousands of satilites in orbit now, and many of them are ageing faster than we are replacing them. The shuttle fleet in the past served an active role in service and maintaining some of those more important satilites. We also need something we can use as an "anchor" for assembly of larger structures in space. None of the designs presently on the books for the various smaller startup companies that the Obama administration is looking to for spacee needs come even close. A scaled up Lockheed X-33 might be able to fill that role, but a SSTO system is going to be limited in payload capacity.

What we really need is some form of duel stage to orbit system, where an airbreating mothership takes a rocket to the edge of the atmosphere and then launches it. Similar to spaceship one in design, but much larger and capable of a much greater initial launch velocity. Nasa again has had designs in the books for several of those since almost the second the shuttle was launched. but we don't build them.

I like FalconX as a company. I don't see them being able to create a true shuttle replacement with equil or greater capabilities in the next 30 years. Boeing and or Lockheed could build such a craft, but tney probably won't.
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#31 Mar 14 2011 at 6:10 PM Rating: Decent
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I've been of the opinion for a very very long time that one of the greatest advantages to building a space station in the first place is to allow for the launch of mid-sized reusable space craft for orbit and near orbit operation. It's somewhat surprising to me that we haven't built a "space ship" or two for this exact purpose. Once you eliminate the requirement for earth->space launch or space->earth reentry from any vehicle, they become vastly simpler. There's no reason we could not assemble a work-vehicle at the ISS from pre-fabricated parts. Design it intelligently enough (and modularly enough), and the same basic vehicle could serve a whole range of jobs from satellite repair to lunar missions.

Not sure why we haven't done this.


As to the heavy lift vehicle, I agree to a point. But "heavy lift" need not be as heavy as one might think. I'd focus on leveraging the ISS to minimize the amount of "heavy" involved. We need rockets capable of moving cargo and satellites into either orbit or to the space station itself. For higher orbit stuff (especially higher mass high orbit stuff), it makes far more sense to build the work-ships, and just shoot whatever it is to the space station, then tug it off to wherever you want it. Obviously, this is dependent on the specific orbits needed, weight and distribution of the object you're moving there, etc. But the reason there are such high fuel requirements for high orbit launches is because you have to carry the full amount of weight to get there in one shot. If you can pick up launched stuff from the ISS, and then move them to where they need to be, you save a hell of a lot on fuel in most cases.
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#32 Mar 14 2011 at 7:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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The heaviest lift rocket we have determines the size of space component / module / thingy we can get out of the gravety well in the first place. A heavy lift rocket with thrust equil to that of a saturn V would allow us to theoretically at least orbit modules much larger than the destiny laboratory. Until we are actually able to build a material strong enough for use as an orbital tether, we need something like that just to get the basic infrastructure in place.
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#33 Mar 14 2011 at 8:02 PM Rating: Decent
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MoebiusLord wrote:
Yodabunny wrote:
I for one would like to see

And I for one would like to see my money stay in my pocket. It's just one more example of the fundamental difference between people who would like the government to decide where their money gets spent and those who think they should be the ones to decide where to spend. We can wave at each other from opposite sides.


Unfortunately a high demand for something does not necessitate consumers to pay for it. People don't know what they want because they're too susceptible to things like marketing and environmental salience. I, for one, would rather subsidize finding the cure for cancer, rather than relying on privateers who are willing to take a business risk and hoping that they don't charge obscene amounts of money to recoup the development costs for it should they find one. In the mean time, most people aren't going to go out of their way to pay for a private company to do cancer research.

I mean, fucking government, being all philanthropic with my money and ****. Those are MY dimes.
#34 Mar 15 2011 at 9:33 AM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Not sure why we haven't done this.


We don't have the heavy lift capabilities to make a space only transport ship with a single point of distribution more efficient than simply sending rockets direct to their destinations. We'd also have to carry fuel to the space station. It would be cool sure, but it saves nothing until we have a use for it.

#35 Mar 15 2011 at 2:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Yodabunny wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Not sure why we haven't done this.


We don't have the heavy lift capabilities to make a space only transport ship with a single point of distribution more efficient than simply sending rockets direct to their destinations. We'd also have to carry fuel to the space station. It would be cool sure, but it saves nothing until we have a use for it.



The ISS is in low earth orbit. Obviously, if you're putting objects into low earth orbit, it makes sense to just launch them there directly. But for anything higher, you'd need a heavier lift rocket to get it there directly than you'd need to get it to the ISS. From there, it's vastly more fuel efficient to load said object onto an orbital work ship and move it to where you want it. Heck. Assuming you aren't in a huge rush, you can get that object there via unmanned methods with even less fuel.

It's the same basic concept as using multi-stage rockets, except you launch the last stage from the ISS instead of sticking it on top of the rocket with the payload itself. It's more fuel efficient because every pound launched in the final stage has to be carried along each earlier stage. In a direct solution, you'd have to carry the payload *and* the fuel to get it there in on launch. But with this method, you only have to carry the payload on one trip and the fuel (as cargo) on a previous one, thus reducing the total fuel to get all the components to where you need them.

The side benefit (actually the main point really) is that by doing this, we're gaining skill at assembling and operating craft in space. That skill will be necessary to do anything with the moon beyond just landing and coming home. It's a step in the direction towards more permanent presence in space, and is the logical next step after building the ISS in the first place.
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