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#27 Feb 25 2011 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
I'm sensing TLC Reality Show!....
Washington Post wrote:
The White House is set to make news and history this afternoon when it announces the new social secretary. Jeremy Bernard, currently the chief of staff to the U.S. ambassador to France, will become the third person to hold the job in the Obama administration. But he will be the first man and the first openly gay person to be the first family's and the executive mansion's chief event planner and host.

Oh, dinners at the White House are going to be faaaaabulous!
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publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#28 Feb 25 2011 at 9:30 PM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
gbaji wrote:
bsphil wrote:
gbaji wrote:
There are other ways though. All of them, unfortunately, require the GOP to stoop to the same low methods that the Dems are using. For example, there's nothing stopping them from simply passing any other non-quorum required legislation while the Democrats are out of the state. My understanding is that anything not budget related can be thus passed. That's an awful lot of potential "bad" things the Dems would want to oppose which they could pass.
It's not like the Democrats could stop the Republicans from passing them anyway, they'll still have majority control.
Yup. Which puts what they're doing firmly of the heading of "childlike" and "temper tantrum", or perhaps "taking my ball with me when I don't get what I want".
Which begs the question, where is your outrage of the US Republican senators using the same tactics?


Republicans in the US Senate have fled the country in order to prevent a quorum so that the Democrats couldn't call a vote? When did that happen?

It's not the "same tactics". Assuming you're tossing out the same tired comparison as Joph and are talking about the use of the filibuster, the GOP is not the only side to use it, and it's a procedure specifically intended to be used to block votes in certain situations. The concept of the quorum is not.

Quote:
Oh that's right, it doesn't exist. IOKIYAR.


Why on earth should I be outraged about the use of a legitimate process within the Senate rules when it's used exactly as it's intended to be used?
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More words please
#29 Feb 25 2011 at 10:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
it's a procedure specifically intended to be used to block votes in certain situations.

But not every situation and not indefinitely. It's intended to extend an active debate, not to simply block legislation you dislike.
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The concept of the quorum is not.

The concept of a quorum is that you need a minimum number of members present. If they're not present, you don't vote. Currently, they're not present. As I said, it's ironic that this action is extending the debate far, far more effectively than any filibuster has in years.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#30 Feb 28 2011 at 11:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
it's a procedure specifically intended to be used to block votes in certain situations.

But not every situation and not indefinitely. It's intended to extend an active debate, not to simply block legislation you dislike.


Er? In every situation where the majority party proposes a bill which the minority party strongly opposes and can get at least 41 people to stand against a cloture vote on. I'm not sure why you keep suggesting that it's supposed to be different.

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Quote:
The concept of the quorum is not.

The concept of a quorum is that you need a minimum number of members present.


Is there an echo in here? I keep having to repeat the same simple information to you over and over. The important question is "why". Why do we have quorum votes? Why do we have filibuster rules? The "why" of the filibuster is to do exactly what the filibuster is used to do: Block votes on measures which can't pass cloture.

Why do quorum calls exist Joph? Perhaps if you think on that a bit you'll understand why this use of the quorum by the Dems is not appropriate.


Quote:
If they're not present, you don't vote. Currently, they're not present. As I said, it's ironic that this action is extending the debate far, far more effectively than any filibuster has in years.


If by debate you mean the Democrats looking like spoiled children and quite possibly the end of public sector unions in this country due to them looking like douche bags as well, then yes, I suppose we've had a whole bunch of "debate". You do realize that no one outside of the liberal blogosphere bubble thinks that the protesters/unions (since they are the same in this case) are gaining any support by doing this, or that the Dems are are accomplishing anything more than handing an even greater victory to the GOP next year.

By all means "debate" away!
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More words please
#31 Feb 28 2011 at 11:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
You do realize that no one outside of the liberal blogosphere bubble thinks that the protesters/unions (since they are the same in this case) are gaining any support by doing this, or that the Dems are are accomplishing anything more than handing an even greater victory to the GOP next year.

Political Wire wrote:
A new New York Times/CBS News poll finds a majority of Americans "say they oppose efforts to weaken the collective bargaining rights of public employee unions and are also against cutting the pay or benefits of public workers to reduce state budget deficits."

"Americans oppose weakening the bargaining rights of public employee unions by a margin of nearly two to one: 60% to 33%. While a slim majority of Republicans favored taking away some bargaining rights, they were outnumbered by large majorities of Democrats and independents who said they opposed weakening them. Those surveyed said they opposed, 56% to 37%, cutting the pay or benefits of public employees to reduce deficits, breaking down along similar party lines."
[...]
A new Public Policy Polling survey finds that if Wisconsin voters could do it over today they'd support Tom Barrett (D) over Gov. Scott Walker (R) by a seven point margin, 52% to 45%.

Key finding: "The difference between how folks would vote now and how they voted in November can almost all be attributed to shifts within union households. Voters who are not part of union households have barely shifted at all- they report having voted for Walker by 7 points last fall and they still say they would vote for Walker by a 4 point margin. But in households where there is a union member voters now say they'd go for Barrett by a 31 point margin, up quite a bit from the 14 point advantage they report having given him in November."

Pew Research wrote:
"From what you've read and heard about the dispute between Wisconsin's governor and public employee unions over collective bargaining rights, do you side more with the governor or the public employee unions?"
Governor - 31%
Unions - 42%

Damn liberal blogie-thingie-ma-bobble. This is where you start crying about the polls and making up pretend ones in your head that fit what you believe deep in your heart to be true.

Edited, Feb 28th 2011 11:37pm by Jophiel
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#32 Mar 01 2011 at 8:43 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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21,739 posts
Jophiel wrote:
Political Wire wrote:
A new New York Times/CBS News poll finds a majority of Americans "say they oppose efforts to weaken the collective bargaining rights of public employee unions and are also against cutting the pay or benefits of public workers to reduce state budget deficits."

"Americans oppose weakening the bargaining rights of public employee unions by a margin of nearly two to one: 60% to 33%. While a slim majority of Republicans favored taking away some bargaining rights, they were outnumbered by large majorities of Democrats and independents who said they opposed weakening them. Those surveyed said they opposed, 56% to 37%, cutting the pay or benefits of public employees to reduce deficits, breaking down along similar party lines."
[...]
A new Public Policy Polling survey finds that if Wisconsin voters could do it over today they'd support Tom Barrett (D) over Gov. Scott Walker (R) by a seven point margin, 52% to 45%.

Key finding: "The difference between how folks would vote now and how they voted in November can almost all be attributed to shifts within union households. Voters who are not part of union households have barely shifted at all- they report having voted for Walker by 7 points last fall and they still say they would vote for Walker by a 4 point margin. But in households where there is a union member voters now say they'd go for Barrett by a 31 point margin, up quite a bit from the 14 point advantage they report having given him in November."
In graphic form!

gbaji wrote:
bsphil wrote:
gbaji wrote:
bsphil wrote:
gbaji wrote:
There are other ways though. All of them, unfortunately, require the GOP to stoop to the same low methods that the Dems are using. For example, there's nothing stopping them from simply passing any other non-quorum required legislation while the Democrats are out of the state. My understanding is that anything not budget related can be thus passed. That's an awful lot of potential "bad" things the Dems would want to oppose which they could pass.
It's not like the Democrats could stop the Republicans from passing them anyway, they'll still have majority control.
Yup. Which puts what they're doing firmly of the heading of "childlike" and "temper tantrum", or perhaps "taking my ball with me when I don't get what I want".
Which begs the question, where is your outrage of the US Republican senators using the same tactics?
Republicans in the US Senate have fled the country in order to prevent a quorum so that the Democrats couldn't call a vote? When did that happen?
Nope, just fled D.C., or hell, just not show up in Congress, I don't even know if they bother trying to leave town. That's really easy to do though.



Edited, Mar 1st 2011 8:47am by bsphil
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#33 Mar 01 2011 at 11:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, those protests are really costing Democrats tons of support...
Political Wire wrote:
The latest poll on the budget impasse in Wisconsin: A Public Policy Polling survey shows 51% of voters in the state support the public sector unions as compared to 47% who stand with Gov. Scott Walker (R).

When it comes to broader questions about rights for public employees the margins are less narrow: 57% of voters think that workers should have the right to collectively bargain for wages, benefits, and working environment rules compared to only 37% who think they shouldn't have those rights.
PPP wrote:
Ultimately one of the biggest questions moving forward is whether a recall of Scott Walker would be a viable avenue for pro-union supporters. Right now it looks like it would be a 50/50 proposition. 48% of voters say they would support a recall, while 48% are opposed. That issue's about as polarized on party lines as it could possibly be- 87% of Democrats support a recall, 90% of Republicans are opposed, and independents split narrowly in favor of it by a 48/46 spread.


Edited, Mar 1st 2011 11:41am by Jophiel
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#34REDACTED, Posted: Mar 01 2011 at 11:50 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Jophed,
#35 Mar 01 2011 at 11:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:
Remind me again which party is in control there again?

The Republicans. Which is... kind of the point? That people are unhappy with who they voted in?
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#36REDACTED, Posted: Mar 01 2011 at 11:52 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) lol...and you liberals are quoting this is if it actually carries any weight.
#37REDACTED, Posted: Mar 01 2011 at 11:53 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Joph,
#38 Mar 01 2011 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
The polling arm of the DNC says the unions are winning? /Gasp!
#39 Mar 01 2011 at 12:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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PPP had a +0.3 Republican bias in the 2010 elections but I suppose it's easier to just claim they're lying for the Democrats than admit that they're right :D
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#40 Mar 01 2011 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good
Jophiel wrote:
PPP had a +0.3 Republican bias in the 2010 elections but I suppose it's easier to just claim they're lying for the Democrats than admit that they're right :D

I'm not claiming they're lying, I'm suggesting they're biased. The CEO admits as much in 2009 when he addressed the claims of bias in a blog post. I'm not even suggesting they're wrong (**** Morris confirms the numbers re: collective bargaining). They just don't present a clear or complete picture.
#41 Mar 01 2011 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
And crap-f'uck. I said I wouldn't post again in this thread.

Does it count now that I'm not discussing the original topic?
#42 Mar 01 2011 at 12:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolDick Morris.
Quote:
They just don't present a clear or complete picture

They certainly don't present any picture of what Gbaji was claiming.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#43 Mar 01 2011 at 1:01 PM Rating: Good
Jophiel wrote:
lolDick Morris.

If bias on both sides confirms it, I'd call it pretty accurate. Not in dispute.
Jophiel wrote:
Quote:
They just don't present a clear or complete picture

They certainly don't present any picture of what Gbaji was claiming.

What did he claim, that Thailand is fun for vacation if you get off the main streets and in to the seedy back alleys?
#44 Mar 01 2011 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
You do realize that no one outside of the liberal blogosphere bubble thinks that the protesters/unions (since they are the same in this case) are gaining any support by doing this, or that the Dems are are accomplishing anything more than handing an even greater victory to the GOP next year.

The unions seem to have majority support, and the protests aren't hurting perceptions of the Democrats at all. In fact, they seem to be sparking some new resolve and energy from Democratic circles.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#45 Mar 01 2011 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
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MoebiusLord wrote:
What did he claim, that Thailand is fun for vacation if you get off the main streets and in to the seedy back alleys?



I think he used the word 'passage'. Or that could have been varus. They all look the same to me...
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"If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're gonna get selfish, ignorant leaders". Carlin.

#46 Mar 01 2011 at 1:22 PM Rating: Good
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
You do realize that no one outside of the liberal blogosphere bubble thinks that the protesters/unions (since they are the same in this case) are gaining any support by doing this, or that the Dems are are accomplishing anything more than handing an even greater victory to the GOP next year.

The unions seem to have majority support, and the protests aren't hurting perceptions of the Democrats at all. In fact, they seem to be sparking some new resolve and energy from Democratic circles.

Well, that's just styoopid. I am again annoyed at you for lumping in with him in your bet.
#47 Mar 01 2011 at 1:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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I just wanted twenty-five dollahs :(
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
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