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#177 Feb 06 2011 at 3:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Timelordwho wrote:
To be fair though, they measure dollars spent, and don't create a valuation for project-able force per dollar spent.

I don't know what you're trying to say. Obviously Congress knows the size of the check they're cutting for Defense. The issue is whether or not Defense can show Congress the books on how that check is being spent. The requiement to be able to show Congress these books is enforced by law but Defense keeps being given a pass because... it's Defense.
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#178 Feb 06 2011 at 3:30 AM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
gbaji wrote:
It's not as simple as that though. To eliminate the profit motive, you'd have to remove every single component of health care which is profit driven. That means the doctors, the hospitals, the pharmaceutical companies, the medical device manufacturers, everyone.
No, you only need to remove the profit from insurance providers, doctors and hospitals. Pharmaceutical companies and medical device manufacturers need a profit margin to continue to develop new products. The others don't.


Doctors don't need a profit motive?

Hospitals would still tend to need one so they have a reason to care about supply costs.

Insurance wouldn't if it is instead a subsidiary gov't program, but the implementation on that is tricky. If done correctly, as in covering outlier, expensive procedures as a societal risk mitigation tool (But with a cap EoLC), I'd actually agree with Gbaji on structuring the funding dynamics.

My major beef with the system is insurance isn't being used as insurance, but rather a blanket program. And if that's the case it's much better to have a public system. But if it were being used correctly, I could accept a private model, with only a few caveats.
Doctor's need a healthy salary, but not profit. And no hospitals, funded by taxpayers through government, do not need a profit. There's this thing, called a budget and this other thing called limited resources.
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#179 Feb 06 2011 at 3:33 AM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
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How much does your work pay for the insurance you have though? More or less than the $760 you saved on that blood test? You get that that is money you would have received as direct pay if it wasn't provided instead in the form of health benefits, right?


Bullsh*t. He would not have gotten the money the company spends on insurance in pay. Stop kidding yourself. The company would just keep the money. Job benefits are above and beyond wages, you are pretty childish if you think otherwise.


A resounding No. Benefits are absolutely part of your compensation, not some additional perk, which the company doesn't factor into the valuation of your labor.

If you need me to explain why, I can, but it might take a mallet for you to get it.
Very true, however, it would not be a dollar for dollar increase to the worker's salary should the benefits be removed. For the most part anyway, as I'm sure some companies would.
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#180 Feb 06 2011 at 3:53 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
To be fair though, they measure dollars spent, and don't create a valuation for project-able force per dollar spent.

I don't know what you're trying to say. Obviously Congress knows the size of the check they're cutting for Defense. The issue is whether or not Defense can show Congress the books on how that check is being spent. The requiement to be able to show Congress these books is enforced by law but Defense keeps being given a pass because... it's Defense.


Sorry, I was talking about their comparison to other rival countries defense budgets. It would ask the question of "Are we spending more money because we feel the need to have excessive project-able force available for deterrence/threat mitigation/emotional insecurity reasons, or do we just pay too much for an appropriate level of project-able force" This would let us form a better response; either we have a system that needs structural reform in the financing, or we should have a discussion about what level of force we should should have available.

The author just talks about the first section, and I believe we would be better served by analysis that showed to what extent each was an issue, such that we could make better decisions on how to fix it.

(Simple version:
If we purchase (equivalent) jets at $110M and China purchases jets at $100M, but we just buy 10x as many jets, restructuring the financing isn't all that important, whereas if our jets cost $300M to their $100M, we need to fix our market, regardless of how many jets we purchase. In the real case, we are quite likely both spending too much per product and buying too many copies, although for some military hardware, the engineering costs force us to have a large quantity for it to be a worthwhile investment if the number of copies is reduced significantly.)
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#181 Feb 06 2011 at 4:00 AM Rating: Good
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I don't understand how the Pentagon can claim to have bookkeeping too terrible to report anything and continue to get away with it. Things are a mess? Fine, start from scratch. Pick a day, any day and start tracking from there. Found a blackhole in one department? Institute some accounting procedures. Christ, we do it all the time when we take over other businesses. I realize we're not even close on a scale, but the only way to fix it is to start somewhere.
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#182 Feb 06 2011 at 4:01 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
Quote:
How much does your work pay for the insurance you have though? More or less than the $760 you saved on that blood test? You get that that is money you would have received as direct pay if it wasn't provided instead in the form of health benefits, right?


Bullsh*t. He would not have gotten the money the company spends on insurance in pay. Stop kidding yourself. The company would just keep the money. Job benefits are above and beyond wages, you are pretty childish if you think otherwise.


A resounding No. Benefits are absolutely part of your compensation, not some additional perk, which the company doesn't factor into the valuation of your labor.

If you need me to explain why, I can, but it might take a mallet for you to get it.
Very true, however, it would not be a dollar for dollar increase to the worker's salary should the benefits be removed. For the most part anyway, as I'm sure some companies would.


True, but that's an artifact of the insurance industry offering volume discounts on it's services. It would be more ideal for the consumer to be able to pick out services at all orders of delivery, rather than an employer, who can change, or fiddle around with the plan rather than changing strict financial compensation.

It's also much easier for the employee to decide on their place of work when everything is in the same units, rather than a mixed blend of cash, benefits and other comp, excluding say, stock options and pretax retirement accounts, as those are easier to factor, and make sense to do for other reasons.
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#183 Feb 06 2011 at 4:14 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
I don't understand how the Pentagon can claim to have bookkeeping too terrible to report anything and continue to get away with it. Things are a mess? Fine, start from scratch. Pick a day, any day and start tracking from there. Found a blackhole in one department? Institute some accounting procedures. Christ, we do it all the time when we take over other businesses. I realize we're not even close on a scale, but the only way to fix it is to start somewhere.


It's not simply bad bookkeeping, it's the fact that those books are seen by few people for reasons unrelated to bookkeeping quality. I'm not sure if that or the listing of things in weird places because they are not seen by few people is worse. But suffice to say, the books first priority isn't clarity.

I got my mitts on some documents in which several recon jets were put in the same budgetary area as non-military climate monitoring systems, just labeled differently, because "No flights were made" in that region. By which I mean Brasil. And these are the relatively secure logs from a pretty well respected private company, not just the ones in public domain, and these were then used to make public records after further bizarre shenanigans, like changing numbers from on things to another so they become inconspicuous, etc.
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#184 Feb 06 2011 at 4:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Timelordwho wrote:
Sorry, I was talking about their comparison to other rival countries defense budgets. It would ask the question of "Are we spending more money because we feel the need to have excessive project-able force available for deterrence/threat mitigation/emotional insecurity reasons, or do we just pay too much for an appropriate level of project-able force" This would let us form a better response; either we have a system that needs structural reform in the financing, or we should have a discussion about what level of force we should should have available.

Without knowing how we're spending the money, I don't see how you can have an intelligent discussion about how appropriate that amount is at all. Defending how our spending compares to anyone else's spending should come well after we've determined what we're actually spending money on.

On the flip side, noticing that we're spending eight times more than anyone else and well in excess of everyone else combined, should set off a thought "Hey, maybe we should look at those books and see if we need to be spending this much."

From either side of the aisle, I can't see how anyone can claim to be against government waste and overspending and not be trying to put the Pentagon to the wall over this. A failure to do so is an admission that appeasing the Pentagon means more to you than any meaningful attempt at fiscal responsibility.
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#185 Feb 06 2011 at 4:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Timelordwho wrote:
It's not simply bad bookkeeping

Spinney's opinion, one drawn from twenty-two years working inside the Defense Department (Office of Program Analysis and Evaluation in the Office of the Secretary of Defense in the Pentagon according to his bio), is that shitty bookkeeping is a major part of it. Maybe start with that before worrying about the cloak & dagger crap.
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#186 Feb 06 2011 at 4:49 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
Sorry, I was talking about their comparison to other rival countries defense budgets. It would ask the question of "Are we spending more money because we feel the need to have excessive project-able force available for deterrence/threat mitigation/emotional insecurity reasons, or do we just pay too much for an appropriate level of project-able force" This would let us form a better response; either we have a system that needs structural reform in the financing, or we should have a discussion about what level of force we should should have available.

Without knowing how we're spending the money, I don't see how you can have an intelligent discussion about how appropriate that amount is at all. Defending how our spending compares to anyone else's spending should come well after we've determined what we're actually spending money on.

On the flip side, noticing that we're spending eight times more than anyone else and well in excess of everyone else combined, should set off a thought "Hey, maybe we should look at those books and see if we need to be spending this much."

From either side of the aisle, I can't see how anyone can claim to be against government waste and overspending and not be trying to put the Pentagon to the wall over this. A failure to do so is an admission that appeasing the Pentagon means more to you than any meaningful attempt at fiscal responsibility.


But even without looking at their numbers as an outside observer, we could form some type of metric to measure the force, from that and the spending numbers, triangulate and diagnose.

I do agree that it's trivially easy to see that yes, a problem does exist; and that it is at odds with the anti-waste mantra that is often rolled out by supporters of the current appropriations budgets. I guess cognitive dissonance is better than them calling to privatize social security. By which I mean the military.

Edited, Feb 6th 2011 5:53am by Timelordwho
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#187 Feb 06 2011 at 4:58 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
It's not simply bad bookkeeping

Spinney's opinion, one drawn from twenty-two years working inside the Defense Department (Office of Program Analysis and Evaluation in the Office of the Secretary of Defense in the Pentagon according to his bio), is that shitty bookkeeping is a major part of it. Maybe start with that before worrying about the cloak & dagger crap.


If I can make the time, I will read up on that guys analysis. Initial response from reading a couple entries is that he seems to really know his sh*t.

Eloquent too.


Edited, Feb 6th 2011 6:00am by Timelordwho
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