The Stuxnet WormFollow

Living in a country, where the government does things that are distasteful doesn't make someone an supporter of such actions.

All we can do as Americans is speak out in Protest and hope that we can make those who are elected to repersent us listen and change our foreign policy.


Sadly Humanism has a very bad reputation in America.

BTW, Baltimore Science Fiction Society's New Media Guest of Honor at Balticon45, Philippa Ballantine is from New Zealand and the next book on my must read list is Geist. Sadly she finds living in the US makes it easier to sell books.

Of course I don't. Why would I?


That doesn't say what the website claims it says. Most notably, it doesn't prohibit aid to nations who are not signatories to the NNPT.

Searching the PDF for "proliferation" (which also picks up nonproliferation), I see sanctions regarding Cuba and Pakistan realted to their NNPT status which may be lifted at the president's decree. Nothing about Israel though. I'm not searching the whole thing further to make your point for you though so... got a real cite this time?

My government's words don't say what you and Mr. Free Palestine claim they say.

Which was sort of my point.

Funny that. I wonder why....? Could it possibly have anything to do with how Israel never, ever, ever gets mentioned in official communications when it comes to anything nuclear I wonder?

And yes Elne, I know that "Living in a country, where the government does things that are distasteful doesn't make someone an supporter of such actions" (you should tell that to the people who are supporting US foreign policy so enthusiastically tbh), but thats not why I post here is it? Oddly, the main reason I post here is for the sometimes entertaining banter that goes back and forth, and as a substantial by-product I edumacate myself about stuff. For example, theres no other situation I would find myself in a situation where I would spend some of my day trawling thru Government policy documents from 30 years ago, unless the NZ Health Service was paying me a tidy sum to sit here 'in case' there's an emergency. As such, I thankyou Asylumites! You are awesome!

So you're saying there isn't actually any law prohibiting aid to Israel? Ok, then.

But what of the childrenHolocaust! Won't someone please think of the childrenHolocaust!

Maybe we should just let them make Casinos instead, like we do with the Indians.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 8:28pm by TirithRR

Current military 'aid' from US to Israel is about US$3 billion annually.

Yeah, you quoted that.

I guess you don't get this but "In furnishing such military assistance, it remains the policy of the United States to continue to exert maximum efforts to achieve universal control of weapons of mass destruction and universal regulation and reduction of armaments, including armed forces, under adequate safeguards..." is a judgment call. What Congress & the State Department decides are "adequate safeguards", etc.

You made a very specific claim: No military aid for countries who are not signatories to the NNPT. You have yet to actually back this claim up. What you're providing doesn't answer that claim. What you're providing isn't even really a "rule" but "Things we're trying to accomplish". You might disagree with whether or not they're being accomplished but that doesn't make military aid to Israel "illegal" or whatever else.

Likewise, the human rights stuff seems to be largely the decision of the State Department and the president. You don't have to like their decisions but that doesn't make it "illegal" just because you don't like it.

Edit: Actually the "Free Palestine" guy said it was "banned". You just said the US ignores its own rules.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 9:15pm by Jophiel

Opacity to you and yours, perhaps. According to the article, the US is off building working replicas of Iranian nuclear refinement facilities with Israel just to break them with computer viruses. I suspect that the US isn't all that ignorant about Israel's nuclear program.


As a non-signatory to the Non-Proliferation Treaty nor the Comprehensive Test-Ban Treaty, I'm not sure how Israel's nuclear activities would qualify as "illegal".

Me neither.

Hence the glaring contradictions that lead to the perceptions of hypocricy and desire for retribution amongst the people who want to blow your stuff (and people) up.

The US knows about the Israeli program and the capabilities to produce weapons and has since the 70'.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/892941.stm

is the most recent "source" from a third party participant. This is a 2000 article so assumed 100 at the time could more likely be 150-200 or so now.

Most people accept that Israel has Bio/Chem/Nuke weapons. But because they are the western worlds proxy in the Mid-East, they get to play by a different set of rules. Call it Appeasement for the Holocaust, call it deliberate provocation directed at the oil rich neighbors. Which ever way you look there would be no real difference, they get special treatment because of where they are in the world.

I guarantee that if say Venezuela began producing nuclear equipment the U.S. and the West in general would be opposed to this. Pretty much run down a list of nations not allied with the U.S. and by Extension NATO and you will see how politics is really played.

I have nothing against jewish people. I do however have something against how Israel treats its neighbors, with support from my country and our allies. They are no better than the Third Reich, and deserve to be invaded and put back in their place, just like **** Germany.

But that is surely the debate that should be occuring.

Successive US governments have insisted that they wish to see peace in the ME, but then offer 'complete and unconditional' support of Israels policies, whatever the results of those policies.

Israels aquisition and permanent occupation of land during war? No problem! Here have several billion dollars...

Collective punishment of Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza, with the use of curfews, travel restrictions, demolition of homes and infrastructure? Have several billion more...

Continuous building of settlements on occupied land, destruction of olive groves that have been farmed for generations, limiting access to medical care for ...well, anyone... actually. Kidnappings, targetted killings, secret detentions without charge, confiscation of relief supplies including medical equipment, drugs, educational supplies (exercise books, pencils, blackboards ffs), etc etc etc. assasinations of targets in third party countries, stealing foreign passports for use in assasinations....Feck the list goes on!

This is what has led to a situation where no-one trusts the US anymore over there. It says one thing and does another, and allows Israel to call the shots. The Arab leaders are completely hopeless (and ******** their dish-dashes as well if they have looked at Tunisia lately). The lack of trust for the US's intentions amongst the arabs has evolved into an outright hatred for the Israelis and their US sponsors. That hatred is what threatens not just any hope for peace in the ME, but fuels the fervour of the Jihadists who now directly threaten US and western interests globally.


The US Government maybe acting in its best interests, because after all theres a lot of money being made and a lot of power being brokered, and a lot of it is at the behest of the massive Jewish lobby in the US. But are the interests of the American people being forwarded? Or the Israelis? No. Not even slightly. The Israelis are living in a state of perpetual readiness for war. The Palestinians are living in the worlds biggest concentration camp, and you, the American tax-payer are footing the bill and living under ever increasing surveillance and terror alerts.

If there is to be a peace of any sort in the region, Israel needs to stand on its own feet, and earn the respect that they undoubtably deserve by learning to co-exist with their neighbours. They cannot kill or imprison everyone who hates them (even with 3 billion dollars a year), so they better start learning to live with them like other countries manage to do all around the world.

A giant first step would be to get rid of the blatantly racist Lieberman, Barak and Netenyahu, and sstart down a road of reconciliation that would inevitably be massivly painfull for all involved. but to continue on in the way they are is leading to a disaster that will engulf the whole region and then the world.

The US tax-payer should not be bankrolling Israels destructive policies.

Its definately not in your best interests. Or mine.

If I had access to green arrows Id use them on on that post. It is pretty much what the situation has been for a long long time, and the finer points of siding and money fronting are things that I personally hate. I remember getting into a very volatile debate with a friend over Israel and he always took the stance that they are the ones who arebeing persecuted, hunted and living in fear. It wasn't until he actually visited the region and saw first hand how badly the Israeli's actually act towards their neighbors, and "subjects".

They do live in fear, and are persecuted, mostly because of their own actions. Similarly to why the US is strongly disliked in the region. There was a time when the US was asked to help nations there, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq all requested and received support in the 70's and 80's. However now that doesn't happen, because of the political mind set that the US has in regards to the largest issue in ME peace, Israel.

It is my firm belief that Israel should never have been given the land rights to the region in the first place. Since its inception it has had 9 or so incidents ranging from minor skirmishes to all out wars. It has subjugated the Palestinians to the point of resembling internment camps, and has consistently provoked its neighbors into fighting or in current situations, attempting to acquire weapons with which to defend their homelands.

In my honest opinion of in this day and age the site where Israel sits should be an international religious zone. It should not be controlled by any one nation, and it should not be subject to hostility. It is the birth place of the three major religions in the area, and should be a center of peace, and religious prosperity, akin to the Vatican City which is technically a "nation" unto its own. Giving control of this beacon or religion to one specific religious sect, was asking for trouble. Hell European Countries spent hundreds of years battling ME countries over control before the Muslims who had control, agreed (even after winning the final Crusade) to allow Catholics(Christians) to visit the holy lands, as often as they pleased, without fear of harm.

This peace lasted for Hundreds of years, up until the most recent "control" exchange in the creation of Israel.

The Jews have been driven out before, and they will be driven out again. It is only a matter of time before people say enough is enough.