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Continued Conservative SCJ Assault on WomenFollow

#1 Jan 04 2011 at 10:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Washingtonpost wrote:
In an interview with California Lawyer, Scalia said that the Constitution itself does not protect women and gay men and lesbians from discrimination. Such protections are up to the legislative branch, he said.
Essentially this is saying, it's ok for states or other jurisdictions to pass laws that prohibit discrimination, but likewise if the states or other jurisdictions discriminate, the SCOTUS is 'ok' with that.

I think he goes on to say that the SCOTUS shouldn't really have any say in citizen rights or equality.

SCJ Antonin Scalia wrote:
Yes, yes. Sorry, to tell you that. ... But, you know, if indeed the current society has come to different views, that's fine. You do not need the Constitution to reflect the wishes of the current society. Certainly the Constitution does not require discrimination on the basis of sex. The only issue is whether it prohibits it. It doesn't. Nobody ever thought that that's what it meant. Nobody ever voted for that. If the current society wants to outlaw discrimination by sex, hey we have things called legislatures, and they enact things called laws. You don't need a constitution to keep things up-to-date. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box. You don't like the death penalty anymore, that's fine. You want a right to abortion? There's nothing in the Constitution about that. But that doesn't mean you cannot prohibit it. Persuade your fellow citizens it's a good idea and pass a law. That's what democracy is all about. It's not about nine superannuated judges who have been there too long, imposing these demands on society.


God damned judges and their impositions.
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#2 Jan 04 2011 at 11:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Apparently he was the only Justice to dissent back when the Supreme Court ruled that the 14th Amendment prohibited military academies from discriminating against women. Back then, he didn't even have the backing of other conservative Justices (though Thomas recused himself), I wonder what the current crop would decide.

Also, he said New York pizza was the best. Obviously a nutcase.

Edited, Jan 4th 2011 11:13am by Jophiel
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#3 Jan 04 2011 at 11:17 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:


Also, he said New York pizza was the best. Obviously a nutcase.
Who has the best pizza in Chicago?
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#4 Jan 04 2011 at 11:20 AM Rating: Default
Elinda,

Everything he said is spot on.

Quote:
Persuade your fellow citizens it's a good idea and pass a law. That's what democracy is all about. It's not about nine superannuated judges who have been there too long, imposing these demands on society.


It's this bit in particular that radical liberals hate. Where would liberalism be without a few whacked out judges imposing their beliefs on the masses.

#5 Jan 04 2011 at 11:30 AM Rating: Good
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varusword75 wrote:
Elinda,
Where would liberalism be without a few whacked out judges imposing their beliefs on the masses.

The women would be tatting your linens and the black man would be shining your shoes.

....ahhhh, the good old days.
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#6 Jan 04 2011 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
Elinda wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
Elinda,
Where would liberalism be without a few whacked out judges imposing their beliefs on the masses.

The women would be tatting your linens and the black man would be shining your shoes.

....ahhhh, the good old days.

I don't know about the good old days, but last week south of the Mason-Dixon line sounds accurate.
#7 Jan 04 2011 at 11:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Who has the best pizza in Chicago?

I won't speak for all of Chicago but in our house we usually order from Rosati's. It's good enough for Flea to sing its praises and order it when her family visits.

The thing is, most people don't even order the deep dish everyone associates with "Chicago pizza". It's good but I've never been at someone's house, heard them say "let's get pizza" and expected a deep dish. Chicago has a distinctive thin crust pizza that's what everyone around here would expect and no one ever thinks about in the mighty pizza debates.

Deep dish, I'd probably go to Lou Malnati's but that's a "Let's go out" sort of affair, not something I'd order in or pick up.

Edited, Jan 4th 2011 11:43am by Jophiel
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#8 Jan 04 2011 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Who has the best pizza in Chicago?

I won't speak for all of Chicago but in our house we usually order from Rosati's. It's good enough for Flea to sing its praises and order it when her family visits.

The thing is, most people don't even order the deep dish everyone associates with "Chicago pizza". It's good but I've never been at someone's house, heard them say "let's get pizza" and expected a deep dish. Chicago has a distinctive thin crust pizza that's what everyone around here would expect and no one ever thinks about in the mighty pizza debates.

Deep dish, I'd probably go to Lou Malnati's but that's a "Let's go out" sort of affair, not something I'd order in or pick up.

Edited, Jan 4th 2011 11:43am by Jophiel
I'll be in Chicago for a couple days this spring with my daughter. I plan on eating pizza at least twice.
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#9 Jan 04 2011 at 1:55 PM Rating: Default
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Elinda wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
Elinda,
Where would liberalism be without a few whacked out judges imposing their beliefs on the masses.

The women would be tatting your linens and the black man would be shining your shoes picking your cotton.

....ahhhh, the good old days.


You misunderestimate how far back varus and his ilk want to go. Fixt.
#10 Jan 04 2011 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good
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I hate deep dish pizza. Thin crust all the way.

While I'm tatting linen, of course.
#11REDACTED, Posted: Jan 04 2011 at 3:04 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Elinda,
#12 Jan 04 2011 at 3:15 PM Rating: Good
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varusword75 wrote:
Elinda,

Quote:
The women would be tatting your linens


As opposed to having babies and kicking the father to the curb so they never have to work a day again the rest of their lifes.


Quote:
and the black man would be shining your shoes.


If we had your way blacks would never have been freed to begin with. Lincoln was after all a Republican.

If we had MY way, no one - blacks included, would have been slaves to begin with.
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#13 Jan 04 2011 at 3:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
Elinda,
Where would liberalism be without a few whacked out judges imposing their beliefs on the masses.

The women would be tatting your linens and the black man would be shining your shoes.


Except that the gains in those areas largely did not come about as a result of court rulings. In fact, in the case of slavery, the court ruled the other direction. It was the legislature which ended slavery, not the courts. Similarly, it was the legislature which passed the ERA, not the courts.

The courts are supposed to rule based on the existing law, not based on what they think the law should be. It's up to the legislature to change the law to be what we think it should be. That's kinda the way our system is set up.
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#14 Jan 04 2011 at 3:22 PM Rating: Excellent
Elinda wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
Elinda,

Quote:
The women would be tatting your linens


As opposed to having babies and kicking the father to the curb so they never have to work a day again the rest of their lifes.


Quote:
and the black man would be shining your shoes.


If we had your way blacks would never have been freed to begin with. Lincoln was after all a Republican.

If we had MY way, no one - blacks included, would have been slaves to begin with.

That's an easy comment to make with over a century of social evolution under your belt since it was last an issue in this country.
#15 Jan 04 2011 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Except that the gains in those areas largely did not come about as a result of court rulings.

You mean aside from the legal challenges which were won on the basis of the court's reading of the 14th amendment. Such as, say, Brown v. Board of Education or United States v. Virginia.
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#16 Jan 04 2011 at 3:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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MoebiusLord wrote:
That's an easy comment to make with over a century of social evolution under your belt since it was last an issue in this country.

She's from Maine. She probably would have been an abolitionist in 1859 as well.
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#17 Jan 04 2011 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Except that the gains in those areas largely did not come about as a result of court rulings.

You mean aside from the legal challenges which were won on the basis of the court's reading of the 14th amendment. Such as, say, Brown v. Board of Education or United States v. Virginia.


The rulings didn't create the law upon which the changes were based. It's a subtle point, but a valid one. There's a difference between saying, for example, that the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment means that the government cannot mandate that people be provided different public services based solely on their skin color, and saying that this same clause means that the government must create public services solely to balance out past inequalities based on skin color.
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#18 Jan 04 2011 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
That's an easy comment to make with over a century of social evolution under your belt since it was last an issue in this country.

She's from Maine. She probably would have been an abolitionist in 1859 as well.


And she'd have been a Republican too!
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#19 Jan 04 2011 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
The rulings didn't create the law upon which the changes were based.

Didn't claim they did. I said that they were important towards establishing equal rights. Especially in the face of chucklenuts like Scalia who think women don't count as "any person" under the equal rights clause.
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#20 Jan 04 2011 at 3:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
And she'd have been a Republican too!

Silly. Women couldn't vote. Who cares what party she's with?

Edited, Jan 4th 2011 3:59pm by Jophiel
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#21 Jan 04 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
The rulings didn't create the law upon which the changes were based.

Didn't claim they did. I said that they were important towards establishing equal rights.


No they weren't. I suspect this is where the misunderstanding comes in. The rights are established by the law. The courts rule on cases dealing with those rights. They do not "create", or "establish", or "found", or "form", or in any other way actually cause those rights to come into being. That may seem like a purely semantic distinction, but there's a very real and very important reason for making it. If you don't, then you run the risk of using the judiciary to create new areas of law and you will find it harder to see where that boundary is between ruling on the law, and changing the law into what you want.

Given that this is exactly what many conservatives accuse the left of doing with the judiciary, it's kind of a relevant point.


Quote:
Especially in the face of chucklenuts like Scalia who think women don't count as "any person" under the equal rights clause.


I'd have to see a bit more context for his statements, but I suspect that his words are being misinterpreted. In fact, I'd bet on it. Do you honestly think he doesn't believe that women count as "any person"? Don't you ever stop to examine how absurd your own claims are?
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#22REDACTED, Posted: Jan 04 2011 at 4:19 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Gbaji,
#23 Jan 04 2011 at 4:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
No they weren't.

Heh. Okay.

Quote:
I'd have to see a bit more context for his statements, but I suspect that his words are being misinterpreted. In fact, I'd bet on it. Do you honestly think he doesn't believe that women count as "any person"? Don't you ever stop to examine how absurd your own claims are?

I see you never came across "hyperbole" in English class. Pity, that. Anyway, he stated that the Congress that passed the amendment never intended it to provide protections against discrimination due to gender. Did you just fail to read the OP or something? There isn't much more context to it, either. It was an interview.
California Lawyer wrote:
In 1868, when the 39th Congress was debating and ultimately proposing the 14th Amendment, I don't think anybody would have thought that equal protection applied to sex discrimination, or certainly not to sexual orientation. So does that mean that we've gone off in error by applying the 14th Amendment to both?

Yes, yes. Sorry, to tell you that. ... But, you know, if indeed the current society has come to different views, that's fine. You do not need the Constitution to reflect the wishes of the current society. Certainly the Constitution does not require discrimination on the basis of sex. The only issue is whether it prohibits it. It doesn't. Nobody ever thought that that's what it meant. Nobody ever voted for that. If the current society wants to outlaw discrimination by sex, hey we have things called legislatures, and they enact things called laws. You don't need a constitution to keep things up-to-date. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box. You don't like the death penalty anymore, that's fine. You want a right to abortion? There's nothing in the Constitution about that. But that doesn't mean you cannot prohibit it. Persuade your fellow citizens it's a good idea and pass a law. That's what democracy is all about. It's not about nine superannuated judges who have been there too long, imposing these demands on society.

The Equal Protection Clause states: No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

So are we taking that literally (as I was recently told we MUST do for the 10th Amendment) or are we interpreting intent? Because a reading what was written says "any person". Are women not people? Are we deciding intent for this part of the Constitution but not for amendments such as the second or tenth? Help me out here.

Edited, Jan 4th 2011 4:27pm by Jophiel
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#24 Jan 04 2011 at 4:46 PM Rating: Good
gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
That's an easy comment to make with over a century of social evolution under your belt since it was last an issue in this country.

She's from Maine. She probably would have been an abolitionist in 1859 as well.


And she'd have been a Republican too!


At that time, you would not have been. What's your point?
#25 Jan 04 2011 at 5:37 PM Rating: Good
Back in the 1850s, Varus would have been decrying the Republicans as dirty liberals.
#26 Jan 04 2011 at 5:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Who has the best pizza in Chicago?


Second Lou Malnati's for deep dish. I've also heard Gino's East has great deep dish but I've never been there. If you go, you'll have to let me know how it is.

Probably Moretti's for regular pizza.

Edited, Jan 4th 2011 5:39pm by Kachi
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