Pope calls Christians 'most persecuted religious' group.Follow

I bet the Pope doesn't even post here!

+1 lulz

I'm guessing we'd mean the following groups when really talking about things. I guess we could mention regional religions, like Shinto, but they are largely without persecution as they rarely exist outside the areas they are practiced in.

Jews
Christians
Muslims
Hindus
Buddhists
(Atheists?)

The Jews are EASILY the most persecuted group if you don't count Atheists. Probably if you still do. Wherever Christianity is outlawed, Judaism is too. And everywhere Christianity is persecuted, Judaism is too. And there are plenty of Christian areas (mostly African, Polynesian and South American) where Christians will persecute Jews (and others). And historically... Yeah. Jews have it worst. Add in the fact that there's only one Jewish nation, and it is hated by all of its worldly neighbors (primarily due to religion).

Atheists are harder to figure out. They are one of the most persecuted groups worldwide, definitely. But the thing is... they aren't apparent. In a muslim area of the world, they'll attract a lot of attention--sure. When everyone around is bowing towards Mecca and you are trying to do your grocery shopping, you stand out. And they are probably up there with Muslims in terms of who the West persecutes. It's really hard to say who are persecuted more--Jews or Atheists. I'm gonna go with Jews, because there are people alive *now* who lived through a genocide.

Christians? LOL. Nearly all places that hate Christians hate Jews and Atheists more. And Christians do more than their fair share of persecution (MOSTLY via South America, Africa and Polynesia).

Muslims? Definitely persecuted against in the West and in Christian nations. But the majority of their persecution comes from internal struggles between Sunni and Shia. There are ample places that prefer one or the other, and plenty where you could expect to live peacefully as either. Only a few Muslim states really persecute the other. Plus, I'm not sure you are being persecuted when you equally hate the group that hates you...

Hindus? No. Sure, there are plenty areas of the world where you can't be Hindu. But all of those places hate Christians and Jews just as much if not more. Though, to be fair, all these places would hate Hindus more if they were more evangelical (THANK YOU, Hindus, for never knocking on my door). I've never heard of any severe Hindu persecution (if someone else has, please share).

Buddhism? Not really. Sure, China's kinda iffy on that whole "religion" thing, but that's pretty universal. And the fact that Buddhism doesn't really deny anyone other religions makes it relatively uncontroversial--the fact that it doesn't tell anyone their god is a lie helps keep them off the radar.

Most importantly? Not to sound horribly insensitive, but if ONE attack on a church leads the pope to say that, then he hasn't paid ANY attention to the world for the last 4 decades...

Now, if they had said "People forget that Christians face persecution, too" it would have been perfectly true and fair. But that's downright bullshit.

Fucker thinks he's too good for us just cause a couple million people think he's the voice of God.

How the hell do you figure this? You're the second person to say this and it's just as bizarre a claim this time around as the first. I'm not aware of any country in the world where people are persecuted simply because they don't follow any religion at all. There are a whole lot of places where they are persecuted for *not* following the correct religion though. That this happens to lump Atheists in with all the religious folks who aren't the correct state religion is a side effect. It's not a target at atheists.



No more than a Christian or Jew would. I'm not sure how you think that makes Atheists "more persecuted".



I'm going to follow the same line Joph used. Persecution of people by other private individuals occurs all the time for a wide variety of reasons. We can play the "me too!" game, but it's kinda pointless IMO. I think it's a lot more helpful to focus on countries with actual policies in place which either directly persecute people based on their faith (or lack thereof to be fair), or which strongly encourage such persecution by their citizens.

Exactly how many Atheists have been killed because they were atheists in say the last 50 years? Any? Can you find one? What definition of persecution are you using then?



No, it's not. It's not even close. Atheists are not persecuted at all anywhere. The worst an atheist gets is some church goer giving them a bad look for being a "non-believer". If you think that's persecution then I suspect you need to lift your head up and look around at the rest of the world sometime. People are killed for their faith all the time. In some countries it's illegal to be a Christian. I'm not aware of any country where its illegal to be an atheist.



Strange that you associate persecution with genocide when talking about Jews, but then want to put what Atheists go through even in the same ballpark.



Wrong. Or, I should say, half wrong. How the hell do you equate the persecution of Jews to that of Atheists. What world do you live in where the ranking of people who are persecuted for their beliefs puts Jews at the top and Atheists in a close second? Sorry, that's bizarre.



Can you name a country where it is illegal to be any religion other than Christian? Can you name a country where the government acts in a way designed to encourage attacks on non-Christians? Where non-Christians are excluded from public schools holding many jobs and even political office? Can you?



Your definition of persecuted seems to change radically based on which group you're talking about. Makes it an irrelevant standard in your case.



Well, you are. I suspect there is a side aspect of this issue we could explore based on your statement having to do with examining which religion persecutes the most as opposed to which is most persecuted. But that would be another topic.



Are you really that ignorant of world events? That was one recent example. Depending on who you talk to, anywhere from 10k to 50+k Christians are killed every year world wide specifically because they are Christian. Unfortunately, it's hard to validate the numbers because they occur in countries which tend not to track the number of Christians they or their policies kill and western intellectuals who one might expect to care about people being killed for their beliefs tend to turn a blind eye (so no one does any "official" or academic studies of the problem).


The western intellectual view tends to be that since Christianity is the majority religion in the west and is seen as too powerful there, that what happens to Christians everywhere else in the world either doesn't matter, or is somehow some kind of fair payback for perceived current and historical power. As a result most people in the west are completely unaware of just how harshly and often blatantly Christians are persecuted and killed everywhere else. Ironically, when someone like the Pope attempts to bring this problem to the attention of western audiences, it's met with the sort of reactions we've seen in this thread.



Is it? Or are you just ignorant of the reality around you? If everyone who tries to inform you about what's going on gets harshly attacked for doing so, why do you think you are acting on accurate and complete information?

Gbaji, you're fucking retarded.

A. If someone is punished for not following a state religion, an atheist is punished. In most cases, specific groups engender additional hatred (Jews in many middle-eastern nations, for instance).

B. Persecution certainly ranges in levels of violence, but that says nothing about whether or not is persecution. You, like always, have decided to invent a definition that suits your own argument. I don't give a rat's *** what you consider persecution. I'm talking about this:


Also,


A. "Depending on who you talk to... so no one does any 'official' or academic studies of the problem."

If no one does any official or academic studies (which I can already tell you is ********** how does ANYONE have any grounds to claim numbers?

B. Do a lot of Christians die? Yes. Do a lot of Muslims die? Yes. Do a lot of Jews die? Yes. Do a lot of atheists die? Yes. NO ONE has argued that they aren't persecuted against. The point of the discussion is persecution relative to other groups.

C. You are making an assumption that you haven't even bothered to qualify. Who suffers more--the group with the higher population of sufferers, or the group with the higher percentage of sufferers? That's a BIG question and will have a huge affect on the results. Because the religions don't have equal populations. If you consider percentage of population, then yes--atheists are pretty high on the list.

D. Atheists are a big minority, especially in lesser-developed nations. And they are INCREDIBLY persecuted around the world. Sometimes more, sometimes less. But do you think you can just stroll into a militarized Muslim territory in Africa talking about your Atheism and NOT get lynched? Good joke.

E. Why do people tend to hate atheists more? Because they are the strongest voice of opposition. Sunni and Shiites hate eachother for very small differences in their theologies. Imagine how much they hate someone who tells them they are flat out wrong, that there is no soul or afterlife and that God doesn't even exist? They hate him a lot.

F. Atheism is illegal in many countries around the world. Example, Iran. Another example? Indonesia. Should I keep going?

Of course I disagree. Those are completely different things. You honestly don't understand why?

Sorry to go off topic with this, but how can you, someone who advocates smaller government (more power to the state), consider a state's constitution as meaningless yet fight tooth and nail over anything done to the Federal constitution? Just curious and not trying to pick a fight.

Completely. Was just curious about the other part.

And here's another example, Gbaji.

Say that country (the one requiring religion Y), had a different law instead that said "No Christians," would that be persecution?

Yes, okay.

Now what if they had a second law that said "No Jews."

Still persecution?

Now how about another that says "No Hindus." And another that says "No Buddhists." And another, and another, and another, until all religions but there own were covered. And they pass another law whenever a new religion appears in the country.

Aren't all of those individual laws persecution? Yes, so...

Why the hell is one law that is, BY DEFINITION ALL OF THOSE SMALLER LAWS, not persecution?

And how is that? In a Muslim country, everyone gets down to pray. You either follow it against your religious belief and pray to something in which you do not believe, or you reveal your non-affinity with the religion at hand. In a Christian country, everyone goes to church. You either go and are accounted for against your belief, or you do not go and yet again reveal your non-affinity. You can say that those who do not comply with the social standard set are dumb, just like the atheist in your example, but it's still persecution. The same thing said about church attendance and prayer can be said about dietary habits (since atheists have no restrictions as a group), clothing, and several other ideals.

Your analogy using taxes and left-handed individuals is completely bullsh*t, gbaji. If it is a tax that all people must send via a check and must sign that check with their right hand, it may be a more appropriate comparison, especially if you add in that those who sign with their left hand will be imprisoned or beaten or whatever punishment is felt just.

Edited, Dec 17th 2010 7:01pm by LeWoVoc

I think that both of you are making the mistake of assuming that I'm arguing that Atheists are never ever required to do something they don't want to in the name of some kind of religious requirement. That's not it at all.

My point is that in any case where the Atheist may be required to do something he doesn't want to, the Christian or Jew also has to do that thing *and* are prohibited from practicing their own religion as well. Additionally, there are many more countries were there is no requirement to do something you don't want to do (so the Atheist isn't affected at all), but there are restrictions against practicing some religions.


It is just absurd to put the persecution of Atheists even remotely in the same ballpark as that of Jews or Christians. We can sit here and argue little side tidbits around in circles if you really really want to, but at the end of the day, you're not going to change that reality. I'll ask again: How many Aheists have been killed because of their Atheism in the last 50 years? Is anyone going to even take up the claim that this number is larger than the number of Christians killed for their beliefs just in the last year?


If you're unwilling to argue that point, then you can't really argue that Atheists are persecuted to the same much less greater degree than Christians. Yet at least two separate posters attempted to make this very claim. Anyone willing to actually back it up? Or are we just going to run around in circles while avoiding the inherent absurdity of the whole thing?