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Pretty much what most people already knew. But with data!Follow

#1 Dec 15 2010 at 3:39 PM Rating: Good
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http://www.alternet.org/media/149193/study_confirms_that_fox_news_makes_you_stupid


Quote:
Study Confirms That Fox News Makes You Stupid
A new survey of American voters shows that Fox News viewers are significantly more misinformed than consumers of news from other sources.
December 15, 2010 |

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Yet another study has been released proving that watching Fox News is detrimental to your intelligence. World Public Opinion, a project managed by the Program on International Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland, conducted a survey of American voters that shows that Fox News viewers are significantly more misinformed than consumers of news from other sources. What’s more, the study shows that greater exposure to Fox News increases misinformation.

So the more you watch, the less you know. Or to be precise, the more you think you know that is actually false. This study corroborates a previous PIPA study that focused on the Iraq war with similar results. And there was an NBC/Wall Street Journal poll that demonstrated the break with reality on the part of Fox viewers with regard to health care. The body of evidence that Fox News is nothing but a propaganda machine dedicated to lies is growing by the day.

In eight of the nine questions below, Fox News placed first in the percentage of those who were misinformed (they placed second in the question on TARP). That’s a pretty high batting average for journalistic fraud. Here is a list of what Fox News viewers believe that just aint so:

* 91 percent believe the stimulus legislation lost jobs
* 72 percent believe the health reform law will increase the deficit
* 72 percent believe the economy is getting worse
* 60 percent believe climate change is not occurring
* 49 percent believe income taxes have gone up
* 63 percent believe the stimulus legislation did not include any tax cuts
* 56 percent believe Obama initiated the GM/Chrysler bailout
* 38 percent believe that most Republicans opposed TARP
* 63 percent believe Obama was not born in the U.S. (or that it is unclear)

The conclusion is inescapable. Fox News is deliberately misinforming its viewers and it is doing so for a reason. Every issue above is one in which the Republican Party had a vested interest. The GOP benefited from the ignorance that Fox News helped to proliferate. The results were apparent in the election last month as voters based their decisions on demonstrably false information fed to them by Fox News.

By the way, the rest of the media was not blameless. CNN and the broadcast network news operations fared only slightly better in many cases. Even MSNBC, which had the best record of accurately informing viewers, has a ways to go before it can brag about it.

The conclusions in this study need to be disseminated as broadly as possible. Fox’s competitors need to report these results and produce ad campaigns featuring them. Newspapers and magazines need to publish the study across the country. This is big news and it is critical that the nation be advised that a major news enterprise is poisoning their minds.

This is not an isolated review of Fox’s performance. It has been corroborated time and time again. The fact that Fox News is so blatantly dishonest, and the effects of that dishonesty have become ingrained in an electorate that has been been purposefully deceived, needs to be made known to every American. Our democracy cannot function if voters are making choices based on lies. We have the evidence that Fox is tilting the scales and we must now make certain its corporate owners do not get away with it.
#2 Dec 15 2010 at 3:46 PM Rating: Good
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#3 Dec 15 2010 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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Watching any TeeVee makes you thick, not just Fox.
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#4REDACTED, Posted: Dec 15 2010 at 3:58 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) lol...that's cute.
#5 Dec 15 2010 at 4:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Breaking news! Liberal academic whack jobs on the govn payroll hate fox.


While the article is clearly heavily editorialized, I sincerely doubt the data was corrupted in any way, or that the original report contained anything but the hard facts. It's unlikely that there was any significant bias in the study, either. I doubt you even appreciate how extreme an accusation that is in academia. Put it to you this way, in many schools, the only way a tenured professor could be discharged would be to falsify data. They could sleep with their students or come to work blitzed and still keep their job, but if they perpetuate academic dishonesty they're as good as gone.

If you're going to argue against the article, you might be able to make the case that people are simply more likely to answer what they imagine to be true, but that they didn't necessarily actually get that information from FOX. That may or may not be a valid argument, depending on what controls the study used.

Also, your statement sounds pretty much like an admission that FOX has a Republican bias. Why else would "liberal academic whack jobs" "hate" them? Because they're just too gosh darn honest? Not even Stretch Armstrong could stretch the truth that far.

Edited, Dec 15th 2010 2:53pm by Kachi
#6 Dec 15 2010 at 5:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Breaking news! Liberal academic whack jobs on the govn payroll hate fox.


While the article is clearly heavily editorialized, I sincerely doubt the data was corrupted in any way, or that the original report contained anything but the hard facts.


Sure, but it's the editorializing which makes up the meat of the issue, not the facts. No one's disputing, for example, that "72 percent believe the health reform law will increase the deficit". The question is whether or not someone thinks that is a false belief.

A similar issue can be raised about almost all of the highlighted points. Whether you think those are false positions is purely subjective. And let's be honest: Is it false to believe that the economy has gotten worse?


Quote:
If you're going to argue against the article, you might be able to make the case that people are simply more likely to answer what they imagine to be true, but that they didn't necessarily actually get that information from FOX. That may or may not be a valid argument, depending on what controls the study used.


I think you completely missed the point. Most of those "false things" are very subjective. About the only purely objective thing on that list is whether taxes went up. Most of the others are opinion, or are likely confusions based on labels and common usages (people tend to blame a president for everything done even though it's congress that often initiates things like bailouts, or they tend to label and lump together "TARP" and the stimulus bill).

Quote:
Also, your statement sounds pretty much like an admission that FOX has a Republican bias. Why else would "liberal academic whack jobs" "hate" them?


Because they don't parrot the liberal point of view? Just tossing out an alternative explanation which you might not have considered.
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#7 Dec 15 2010 at 6:10 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
And let's be honest: Is it false to believe that the economy has gotten worse?

It's a flawed question, both in the WPO survey and the way your asking now. The "economy" could be interpreted as being measured by any one of several metrics, stock prices, unemployment, gdp, etc. or even a combination of them. Then there's the ambiguous time reference point, worse from when? From when Obama took office? From when the stimulus was passed? When? And finally even if we could get all of those details, there is a question of how the data should be judged. For example, choose unemployment in any given period. If actual unemployment is up, but the first derivative is negative, should that be interpreted as getting better or worse? What about the second derivative? IF things are worse than before, but getting better are we worse or better off? If things are getting worse but less slowly and in the process of accelerating towards better is that better or worse?

Not too important to this thread as a whole, but ambiguous question are a huge pet peeve for me.
#8 Dec 15 2010 at 8:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
Quote:
And let's be honest: Is it false to believe that the economy has gotten worse?

It's a flawed question, both in the WPO survey and the way your asking now.


It's flawed in the article because it presents what is (as you correctly point out) a subjective opinion as though there's one objective right or wrong answer and then attacks conservatives for statistically providing the "wrong answer".

My question isn't flawed btw. I'm not demanding that you accept said belief as "true", only that it's not "false" to hold it. Since it's not an objective true/false condition, it's not wrong to believe it's gotten better or worse. It is wrong to insist that one of those is objectively false though.

Quote:
Not too important to this thread as a whole, but ambiguous question are a huge pet peeve for me.



Yes. Me to. Even more so when they're used to try to characterize an entire opinion as though it's absolutely incorrect when it's really still just an opinion. That's kinda my whole point to critiquing the article. It's not the data which is problematic, but the interpretation.
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#9 Dec 15 2010 at 9:15 PM Rating: Good
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I think you completely missed the point. Most of those "false things" are very subjective. About the only purely objective thing on that list is whether taxes went up. Most of the others are opinion, or are likely confusions based on labels and common usages (people tend to blame a president for everything done even though it's congress that often initiates things like bailouts, or they tend to label and lump together "TARP" and the stimulus bill).


I think completely missing the point is more your thing. In fact, I sometimes wonder if you're able to breathe without missing the point. I think if you were to fall onto a bed of nails, you would be fine, based on your incredible ability to miss points.

Everything on that list is objective-- the question of whether the economy has improved is indeed too vague, but we don't know that that's how the study worded it. That is how the editorial worded it. I would guess that the actual polls the study used focus on specific factors like GDP, and as is often the case, it was reworded in the editorial.

Quote:
Because they don't parrot the liberal point of view? Just tossing out an alternative explanation which you might not have considered.


I guess that's as likely as the Republicans hating CNN/MSNBC because they don't parrot the conservative point of view. Oh wait!
#10 Dec 15 2010 at 9:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Everything on that list is objective-- the question of whether the economy has improved is indeed too vague, but we don't know that that's how the study worded it. That is how the editorial worded it.


Yes. Welcome to The Point(tm).

Quote:
I would guess that the actual polls the study used focus on specific factors like GDP, and as is often the case, it was reworded in the editorial.


Congratulations! You've noodled out what I was talking about. How many times do I have to say that the accuracy of the data collected isn't in question, but the interpretation of said data as presented in the article was before it sinks in? I knew you'd get there eventually though. I had faith in you! :)
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#11 Dec 15 2010 at 10:13 PM Rating: Decent
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#12 Dec 15 2010 at 10:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Congratulations! You've noodled out what I was talking about. How many times do I have to say that the accuracy of the data collected isn't in question, but the interpretation of said data as presented in the article was before it sinks in? I knew you'd get there eventually though. I had faith in you! :)


I wouldn't know-- unfortunately I don't take you seriously enough to bother to read through all of your posts.

Fine, you surely realize that the interpretation was probably not significantly different from the actual findings. So you apparently agree with me that you're wrong. I guess that explains the faith in me. Tsk tsk. That's cheating.
#13 Dec 16 2010 at 2:02 AM Rating: Good
The state of the economy might be (somewhat) subjective depending on metrics, but "was Obama born in the US" or "have income taxes have gone up"?

You can only weasel your way out of so much.
#14 Dec 16 2010 at 2:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You can only weasel your way out of so much.


And then he'll have to move on to worming his way out.

Man I'm feeling hostile today.
#15 Dec 16 2010 at 2:49 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
Most of those "false things" are very subjective.

Quote:
* 91 percent believe the stimulus legislation lost jobs
* 72 percent believe the health reform law will increase the deficit
* 60 percent believe climate change is not occurring
* 49 percent believe income taxes have gone up
* 63 percent believe the stimulus legislation did not include any tax cuts
* 56 percent believe Obama initiated the GM/Chrysler bailout
* 38 percent believe that most Republicans opposed TARP
* 63 percent believe Obama was not born in the U.S. (or that it is unclear)
Explain.

I'm only seeing one out of 9 that are subjective. Not sure how 11% is "most".
#16 Dec 16 2010 at 7:09 AM Rating: Decent
Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
Quote:
Most of those "false things" are very subjective.

Explain.

I'm only seeing one out of 9 that are subjective. Not sure how 11% is "most".

the stimulus legislation lost jobs
Jobs have not increased, rather the opposite since its passing.
the health reform law will increase the deficit
In the history of the universe no spending forecast that goes out 10 years has ever been accurate. It is not unthinkable that the CBO could be wrong.
climate change is not occurring
The question (or the editorialized representation of it...) is misleading.
income taxes have gone up
Mine have. I pay more taxes this year than I did two years ago, and next year looks like it will be another jump.
the stimulus legislation did not include any tax cuts
Understandable. I didn't see any.
Obama initiated the GM/Chrysler bailout
I got nothing on this one.
most Republicans opposed TARP
This point doesn't even imply lawmakers. I would be willing to believe that most Republicans did and do oppose TARP. The lawmaker may not have voted that way, but there were only several hundred with the opportunity to do so. There are 10s of millions of Republicans in the country.
Obama was not born in the U.S. (or that it is unclear)
Hey, what can I say, some people are dumb.

So, by my count, that makes 7/9. Can you see how 78% can be "most"?
#17 Dec 16 2010 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
MoebiusLord wrote:
Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
Quote:
Most of those "false things" are very subjective.

Explain.

I'm only seeing one out of 9 that are subjective. Not sure how 11% is "most".

the stimulus legislation lost jobs
Jobs have not increased, rather the opposite since its passing.
As a result of it? Or for completely unrelated reasons?
Quote:
the health reform law will increase the deficit
In the history of the universe no spending forecast that goes out 10 years has ever been accurate. It is not unthinkable that the CBO could be wrong.
Fine.
Quote:
climate change is not occurring
The question (or the editorialized representation of it...) is misleading.
What is misleading about "climate change"?
Quote:
income taxes have gone up
Mine have. I pay more taxes this year than I did two years ago, and next year looks like it will be another jump.
I don't think that was the question.


Quote:
So, by my count, that makes 7/9. Can you see how 78% can be "most"?
So, climate change is subjective now?

Oh, and http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/subjective, and http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/objective, for you and gbaji. You guys seem to think subjective and wrong are synonymous.
#18 Dec 16 2010 at 8:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:

Quote:
climate change is not occurring
The question (or the editorialized representation of it...) is misleading.

What is misleading about "climate change"?

So, climate change is subjective now?


Climates always change. The question is whether or not the change is significant and heavily influenced by humans. I would imagine that's the editorialized bit.
#19 Dec 16 2010 at 8:54 AM Rating: Decent
From a link in the original article: http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brunitedstatescanadara/671.php?nid=&id=&pnt=671&lb=

That is much more clear.

Quote:
• Though the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) concluded that the stimulus legislation has saved or created 2.0-5.2 million jobs, only 8% of voters thought most economists who had studied it concluded that the stimulus legislation had created or saved several million jobs. Most (68%) believed that economists estimate that it only created or saved a few jobs and 20% even believed that it resulted in job losses.
• Though the CBO concluded that the health reform law would reduce the budget deficit, 53% of voters thought most economists have concluded that health reform will increase the deficit.
• Though the Department of Commerce says that the US economy began to recover from recession in the third quarter of 2009 and has continued to grow since then, only 44% of voters thought the economy is starting to recover, while 55% thought the economy is still getting worse.
• Though the National Academy of Sciences has concluded that climate change is occurring, 45% of voters thought most scientists think climate change is not occurring (12%) or that scientists are evenly divided (33%).
• 40% of voters believed incorrectly that the TARP legislation was initiated under Barack Obama, rather than George Bush
• 31% believed it was proven true that the US Chamber of Commerce spent large amounts of money it had raised from foreign sources to support Republican candidates
• 54% believed that there were no tax cuts in the stimulus legislation
• 86% assumed their taxes had gone up (38%) or stayed the same (48%), while only 10% were aware that their taxes had gone down since 2009
• 53% thought that the bailout of GM and Chrysler occurred only under Obama, though it was initiated under Bush
etc
None of that is subjective.

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 9:55am by ThePsychoticOne

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 9:56am by ThePsychoticOne
#20 Dec 16 2010 at 8:56 AM Rating: Decent
Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:

the stimulus legislation lost jobs
Jobs have not increased, rather the opposite since its passing.

As a result of it? Or for completely unrelated reasons?

That's sort of the point.
Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
climate change is not occurring
The question (or the editorialized representation of it...) is misleading.
What is misleading about "climate change"?

Locke pretty much hit where I was going with that.
Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
income taxes have gone up
Mine have. I pay more taxes this year than I did two years ago, and next year looks like it will be another jump.
I don't think that was the question.

Yes, but it can be interpreted that way.
Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
So, by my count, that makes 7/9. Can you see how 78% can be "most"?
So, climate change is subjective now?

Regardless of your attempt at patronization, I am well aware of the difference between objective and subjective. Climate Change can be interpreted many way, depending on the point of view of the respondent and the framing of the question by the pollster.

Still, removing climate change leaves 6 of 9, which is still most. In case you were confused by the math 5 of 9 is most as well. So find 2 more nits to pick and embrace your inner niggler. You'll still be wrong.
#21 Dec 16 2010 at 9:00 AM Rating: Good
Saved or created is a bullsh:t statistic. The CBO estimates are never accurate at the range given to decrease federal spending. "Recovery" in the economy by DoC metrics (growth) doesn't mean it's getting better for the average individual. The National Academy of Sciences is dependent on pleasing the body with the purse strings, which is owned by ACC proponents. Etc., etc., etc. It's all subjective.
#22 Dec 16 2010 at 9:00 AM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Regardless of your attempt at patronization, I am well aware of the difference between objective and subjective.
Apparently not, because even as worded in the originally posted article none of the following are subjective:
income taxes have gone up
the stimulus legislation did not include any tax cuts
most Republicans opposed TARP

Either they're true or they're not, there's nothing in between.

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 10:01am by ThePsychoticOne
#23 Dec 16 2010 at 9:04 AM Rating: Decent
Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
Apparently not, because even as worded in the originally posted article none of the following are subjective:
income taxes have gone up
Mine have.
the stimulus legislation did not include any tax cuts
I didn't see any.
most Republicans opposed TARP
Most Republicans did. Most Republican lawmakers may not have, but that's not being stated.

Either they're true or they're not, there's nothing inbetween.
Fair enough. As I have shown, again, most of what you're saying is false, and not subjective.
#24 Dec 16 2010 at 9:06 AM Rating: Decent
As long as you can admit that you're wrong~
#25 Dec 16 2010 at 9:09 AM Rating: Decent
Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
As long as you can admit that you're wrong~

I hate it when I have to do that, but I am a big enough man to say that we are not, in fact, simply suffering from a difference of perspective. You're just dealing with a limited understanding of the facts.

I'm sorry.
#26 Dec 16 2010 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
I hate when that happens too, that's why i just learned the definitions of those words back in elementary school, so i wouldn't make such a silly mistake in the future.
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