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Warren Buffet on Bush Tax Cuts and "Trickle Down"Follow

#1 Dec 05 2010 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
Warren Buffet wrote:
Amanpour wrote:
[The Republicans] say you have to keep those tax cuts, even on the very wealthy, because that is what energizes business and capitalism.
The rich are always going to say that, you know, just give us more money and we'll go out and spend more and then it will all trickle down to the rest of you. But that has not worked the last 10 years, and I hope the American public is catching on.

source: http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/warren-buffett-read-lips-raise-taxes/story?id=12199889

There is soo much evidence that the continuation of Republican supply side fiscal policy is disastrous for the majority of the population, so why do you think the American people aren't getting the message?
#2 Dec 05 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
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Professor shintasama wrote:
Warren Buffet wrote:
Amanpour wrote:
[The Republicans] say you have to keep those tax cuts, even on the very wealthy, because that is what energizes business and capitalism.
The rich are always going to say that, you know, just give us more money and we'll go out and spend more and then it will all trickle down to the rest of you. But that has not worked the last 10 years, and I hope the American public is catching on.

source: http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/warren-buffett-read-lips-raise-taxes/story?id=12199889

There is soo much evidence that the continuation of Republican supply side fiscal policy is disastrous for the majority of the population, so why do you think the American people aren't getting the message?
because gays are icky.
#3 Dec 05 2010 at 3:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Because Democrats haven't learned that being good at policy isn't the same as being good at politics?
#4 Dec 05 2010 at 4:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Professor shintasama wrote:
There is soo much evidence that the continuation of Republican supply side fiscal policy is disastrous for the majority of the population, so why do you think the American people aren't getting the message?

Soooooo much evidence! A rich investor said so!
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#5 Dec 05 2010 at 6:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's just as stupid to try and insist that trickle down does not work at all as it is to insist that it's the only way. Both methods run up against diminishing returns.

The biggest problem I see is that both are dependent on increasing consumption, which has all sorts of problems of its own.

Edited, Dec 5th 2010 7:03pm by Xsarus
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#6 Dec 05 2010 at 7:12 PM Rating: Default
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The rich are always going to say that, you know, just give us more money and we'll go out and spend more and then it will all trickle down to the rest of you. But that has not worked the last 10 years, and I hope the American public is catching on.


Give them more money Warren? IT IS THEIR MONEY!

What is it about that simple fact that you libs cannot seem to figure out. Tax cuts are not the government handing out "government" money to you, tax cuts are people keeping more of what they earn.

Only liberals are stupid enough to believe that the government knows how to better spend your money than you do and it amazes me that there are enough morons out there (I.E. the majority of the people who spend a unhealthy amount of time on this board) who continually buy into this "class warfare".

Quote:
There is soo much evidence that the continuation of Republican supply side fiscal policy is disastrous for the majority of the population, so why do you think the American people aren't getting the message?


No evidence what so ever........ except for that the United States that was built on economic freedom, individualism and smaller government which in very short amount of time rose to became one of the world's greatest powers and eventually the world's lone superpower.

Other than that there is no evidence what so ever...........
#7 Dec 05 2010 at 8:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Thiefx, what do you suppose might happen to the U.S. if the tax rate on the top bracket was kept at above 80% for forty years? What if the average tax rate on the top bracket was 60% for 100 years?
#8 Dec 05 2010 at 8:35 PM Rating: Default
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Thiefx, what do you suppose might happen to the U.S. if the tax rate on the top bracket was kept at above 80% for forty years? What if the average tax rate on the top bracket was 60% for 100 years?


Let me guess you're about to "hit" us all with the new liberal claim that at one point in US history the top tax rate was 90% and how because of that everybody was happy and healthy, everyone had a pony and there was dancing in the streets or whatever other garbage you overheard Keith Olberman or some other left leaning moron claim.

By all means make your claim and I am sure the rest of the useful idiots on this board will rate you up and you can go to bed tonight feeling all snug and warm while forgetting that during that period in American history there was no social security system (certainly not as it is today a bloated inefficient program that has morphed into something more than it was ever supposed to be and is so bloated and entwined in peoples lives that is nearly impossible to make any meaningful fixes too)

There was no welfare system or that the government only spent 10 cents out of every dollar collected instead of the nearly 40 cents that is spent today and that the most of the money spent during that time was spent on infrastructure that was designed to move commerce from city to city (During that time a lot of the cities were essential cut off from each other)and from state to state.



By all means go ahead and tell us all about how happy and wonderful things were when the top tax rate was 90%
#9 Dec 05 2010 at 9:04 PM Rating: Good
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Demea wrote:
Professor shintasama wrote:
There is soo much evidence that the continuation of Republican supply side fiscal policy is disastrous for the majority of the population, so why do you think the American people aren't getting the message?

Soooooo much evidence! A rich investor said so!


Well that and the last thirty years.
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#10 Dec 05 2010 at 9:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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ThiefX wrote:
By all means go ahead and tell us all about how happy and wonderful things were when the top tax rate was 90%

Wow, it's like you already know you're wrong, so you spent your entire post setting up strawmen and countering claims I never even made because you're scared sh*tless.

Here's what we both know. Both those hypothetical situations have occurred in recent US history. Neither led to the catastrophic demise of the U.S. and that's pretty much the point. It's not a claim that everything was super special awesome and we should totally do it again. It's simply pointing out that taxing the richest Americans isn't necessarily going to doom us all.

There's nothing wrong with the idea that taxation decreases can benefit the economy. What's horribly, horribly dishonest and flawed is a claim that raising taxes is always disastrous. The idea that nothing good can ever be achieved by increasing taxation is ludicrous.

Conservatives who say that lower taxes often leads to a better nation I can get behind. Conservatives who say that only lower taxes can lead to a better nation--and always does so--are insane. And there are far too many of the latter.

Edited, Dec 5th 2010 9:28pm by Allegory
#11 Dec 05 2010 at 9:52 PM Rating: Decent
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PunkFloyd, King of Bards wrote:
Demea wrote:
Professor shintasama wrote:
There is soo much evidence that the continuation of Republican supply side fiscal policy is disastrous for the majority of the population, so why do you think the American people aren't getting the message?

Soooooo much evidence! A rich investor said so!


Well that and the last thirty years.

An opinion expressed by a rich investor and the flippant, anecdotal opinion of some guy on the Internets?

How can there be any argument?!
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#12 Dec 05 2010 at 10:03 PM Rating: Decent
PunkFloyd, King of Bards wrote:
Demea wrote:
Professor shintasama wrote:
There is soo much evidence that the continuation of Republican supply side fiscal policy is disastrous for the majority of the population, so why do you think the American people aren't getting the message?

Soooooo much evidence! A rich investor said so!


Well that and the last thirty sixty years.

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It's just as stupid to try and insist that trickle down does not work at all as it is to insist that it's the only way.
I'm not insisting it doesn't work it all, I'm insisting it's ridiculously inefficient compared to a progressive tax system, and that exponentially increasing defense expenditures combined with decreasing taxes leads to all that hoarded money becoming worthless in the long term.
#13 Dec 05 2010 at 10:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Warren, just shut up and pay off the deficit for us, kk? thx
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#14 Dec 05 2010 at 10:53 PM Rating: Good
ThiefX wrote:
the United States that was built on economic freedom, individualism and smaller government
Thank you for that little insightful bit of revisionist history, or are you just solely referring to from about 1865 to 1910?
#15 Dec 05 2010 at 11:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Demea wrote:
PunkFloyd, King of Bards wrote:
Demea wrote:
Professor shintasama wrote:
There is soo much evidence that the continuation of Republican supply side fiscal policy is disastrous for the majority of the population, so why do you think the American people aren't getting the message?

Soooooo much evidence! A rich investor said so!


Well that and the last thirty years.

An opinion expressed by a rich investor and the flippant, anecdotal opinion of some guy on the Internets?

How can there be any argument?!


It worked for the Tea Party.
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#16 Dec 06 2010 at 12:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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The benefits/detriments of taxing are more a sociological problem than an economic one. If trying to promote equitable access to resources and the greater social welfare, there are many services that just don't work as well in the free market. Those have to be weighed based on the value of the services/products versus the free market value of the money. Usually these are social services which post-industrialization are priorities.

As for why trickle down doesn't work, here's a simple answer for the supply-sider. Supply and demand isn't a principle just for businesses. It works for jobs, too. People need jobs-- they demand them-- and businesses supply jobs. But businesses don't need workers, especially American workers, like they used to. And consumers don't need the products of American laborers like they used to. This is the inevitability of a developing nation where ample food, housing, medicine, etc. is assured.

Look at the marketplace now-- how many companies provide services that are necessary? Most of the necessary services are supplied by the government, by taxes. Success of businesses depends increasingly on marketing and appealing to human psychology, and less on the actual importance of the service or good.

So here's the problem. Basically, the country doesn't need all of us to work, not even nearly. The companies don't need us to work. The people who want (demand) jobs need a job a lot more than a company, who supplies the jobs. Look up the "principle of least interest" and guess what happens next.

Unfortunately, trickle down economics relies on the psychological assumption that companies have a limitless extrinsic motivation to make as much money as possible, which will foster competition, and therefor productivity, at all levels of the company's model. But extrinsic motivation is the kind where we do things we don't want to do in order to get the rewards. If you're rich, you tend to say, ********** that." You can already have what you want. Further, those motivations don't carry over to the employees down the ladder-- they aren't necessarily motivated by the company's success either. Added to that, competition doesn't always improve productivity-- it often hurts it.

So ultimately, trickle-down is a sensible theory that simply fails to take actual human behavior into consideration. Especially considering we're entering an age of leisure where people need a job more than the country needs them to work. At one time, people identified strongly with their work, and free time wasn't as valued as it is now. Now, the same psychological roles that work used to fill are increasingly fulfilled by leisure instead. The only way to keep people working is to pay them just enough so that they HAVE to keep working, which has the benefit of allowing you to hire more people for bottom dollar. Essentially, trickle down economics encourages large industries to create a monopoly on jobs.
#17 Dec 06 2010 at 1:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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I tend to take a look at the situation from more of an infrastructure perspective, partially due to my employment. What I do know is that there are very compelling arguments that electrical, data, and most importantly transportation infrastructure is absolutly critical to sustainable economic growth. When you get issues with intermittant power, or unavailable internet, or road conjestion, buisinesses go elsewhere.

On the west coast particularily, international trade is a huge portion of our economy, most of that involving goods trucked up and down I-5 to various deepwater ports. Trade out of those ports, over ships and via air, accounts for a somewhat greate than 75% of the total U.S. economic trade with asia in paticular. Though most of those trade goods leave via the West coast, they are produced throughout the U.S.. Any particular persistant delay in traffic on California, Oregon, or Washington state roads has a direct and documented effect on the trade deficit with china. Yet federal road budget money for so called "megaprojects", needed to fix the 20 or so west coast large scale traffic infrastructure issues, has been drying up at an alarming rate. Washington has 3, Oregon 2, and California approximatly 15 projects on roadways alone that if they were majically put in place today, would immidiatly relieve the conjestion from the mexican boarder to Canada and allow trucking companies to utilize a larger standard trailer size, which would in turn put more wear and tear on the roads and require more frequent paving or thicker paving in the first place as they do in Germany in particular, but it would also immidiatly and directly proportionally increase the amount of trade goods available. Lowering shipping costs, lowering the costs associated with trade, increasing profits and increasing the amount of money coming in to corporations who would then in theory hire more people.

Part of the issue with infrastructure is we keep strangling progress with wasted money. A typical interchange across a 6 lane highway, with 4 lanes of traffic and a middle turn lane currently costs in the U.S. around $28 million dollars, from initial design, to final lane painting. 20 years ago that same interchange would have cost about $2 million. Of that cost Literally $5 million off the top goes to study environmental (plants and whatnot), archeological, "environmental justice" (people of shall we say... lesser means?), and other studies that we didn't do previously. Now don't get me wrong, alot of the price increase has been due to inflation over the years, and the need to incorporate better, longer lasting concretes and asphault, along with more expensive signalization and signing, better groundwater collection, etc. But my point there is that there are some quite frankly rediculous levels of regulation and needless beurocracy that any project these days has to endure, and we can't afford it anymore. It doesn't take a 3 month long comprehensive environmental report to determine if there are any endangered species inside a 2 acre section of land. Send some guy out on a weekend to go look. Endangered plants? get a shovel and move them about 500 yards to the right. Endangered animals? guess what, they'll move before you run them over with a backhoe.

I guess the point there is that its not so much who we tax or how much, it's what are we actually getting for the money? We aren't funding the infrastructure pieces that we need, thats for sure. Trickle down economics is a good idea in theory, but the amount of regulatory crap employeers have to go through here in the U.S. makes it far more lucritive for them to pay someone over in Kerala 1/16th the cost to do almost as good a job. Yes, give corporations large tax breaks so they can afford to hire more workers, but make those tax breaks contingant upon them actually hiring additional workers in the U.S. Penalize any that outsource manufacturing to additional countries with higher taxes.

The alternative strategy of taxing your prodicing classes (especially the middle class) to the point they drop to poverty level and then relying on government to provide every service imagineable may work, and it may keep an ever growing segment of voters happy, but it guts the ability of small and mid sized buisinesses to establesh and grow.

Sure, have welfare. but while you are on that welfare check, you report to a work detail 3 times a week to do something productive for the economy. Commit a crime? we'll work you 7 days. Health care? pass legislation that perscription drugs may only be sold in the U.S. for a price as high as the lowest price they are being sold elsewhere on the planet. No more of this "oh, we'll charge YOU mr. american $50 for this pill. but we'll charge a canadian citizin $0.05 cents, because, we have to recoup or research costs... you don't mind do you?

All these bailout programs? Either we make money off them, or we own whatever we bailed out. Social security? We're paying people to leave the workforce. You get that, or a paycheck. not both. Or at very least if you are getting a paycheck we tax your social security until you actually retire. Farm subsidies? no more of this paying people not to farm. Flood the market with cheap food, drive every other food producing country out of buisiness if necessary. Maybe we'll have enough left at that point to make biofuel feasable.

I know not even a good portion of those would be feasable or will ever happen, but its the kind of thing we need to seriously consider.
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#18 Dec 06 2010 at 1:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Kaolian, since you're apparently knowledgeable about infrastructure, to what extent do you think an argument can be made that taxes on infrastructure benefit the wealthy (on the basis that the infrastructure supports their business) more so than the average working citizen?
#19 Dec 06 2010 at 1:59 AM Rating: Good
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Demea wrote:
PunkFloyd, King of Bards wrote:
Demea wrote:
Professor shintasama wrote:
There is soo much evidence that the continuation of Republican supply side fiscal policy is disastrous for the majority of the population, so why do you think the American people aren't getting the message?

Soooooo much evidence! A rich investor said so!


Well that and the last thirty years.

An opinion expressed by a rich investor and the flippant, anecdotal opinion of some guy on the Internets?

How can there be any argument?!


I hope you appreciate the irony of this post as much as I do.
#20 Dec 06 2010 at 11:02 AM Rating: Default
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decayed wrote:
Demea wrote:
PunkFloyd, King of Bards wrote:
Demea wrote:
Professor shintasama wrote:
There is soo much evidence that the continuation of Republican supply side fiscal policy is disastrous for the majority of the population, so why do you think the American people aren't getting the message?

Soooooo much evidence! A rich investor said so!


Well that and the last thirty years.

An opinion expressed by a rich investor and the flippant, anecdotal opinion of some guy on the Internets?

How can there be any argument?!


I hope you appreciate the irony of this post as much as I do.

Who the fuck are you, and why should We care?
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#21 Dec 06 2010 at 11:22 AM Rating: Excellent
Demea wrote:
decayed wrote:
Demea wrote:
An opinion expressed by a rich investor and the flippant, anecdotal opinion of some guy on the Internets?

How can there be any argument?!


I hope you appreciate the irony of this post as much as I do.

Who the fuck are you, and why should We care?

We is actually interested in whether or not the irony crossed your mind when you put it down. We does not, however, give so much as a single flying f'uck who the FNG is.
#22 Dec 06 2010 at 2:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
who would then in theory hire more people


But they won't.

This is the failing point of most arguments for lowering corporate taxes. Companies do not hire more people because they have more money. They hire more people if the need them. Especially in the shipping industry (I'm in distribution).

If you give a freight carrier the option to haul twice as much with half the drivers they'll do just that. You have now eliminated half of the trucking positions and half of the truck building positions in North America. I have my doubts that a truck twice as long damages the road more than two trucks a little over half the length each so no maintenance positions are created, certainly not in a 1-1 ratio to truckers.

Efficiency is the problem, not the solution. We've gotten so good at doing things that we don't have enough for everyone to do. Problem is we still have this idea that everyone should be working all the time so we haven't put social solutions in place to account for the new reality. If everyone worked half as much houses would be half the price because everyone would have half the money. Cut everyone's work week to 20 hours and everyone will have a job and still be able to buy a house and everything they need. The alternative is social programs like welfare where half the population pays for the other.

Frankly, I doubt you're going to get people to voluntarily work half the hours they can, in fact we go out of our way to protect people from exactly that through various laws. So welfare it is. You pay for that by taxing the people who make the most money.
#23REDACTED, Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 3:50 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yoda,
#24 Dec 06 2010 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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varusword75 wrote:
What companies will do is spend more in advertising to increase the demand for widgets thereby increasing the need to produce, and ship, more widgets.
Do you just make this **** up as you go or do you have someone to parrot?
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#25 Dec 06 2010 at 4:03 PM Rating: Decent
Yodabunny wrote:
Quote:
who would then in theory hire more people


But they won't.

This is the failing point of most arguments for lowering corporate taxes. Companies do not hire more people because they have more money. They hire more people if the need them. Especially in the shipping industry (I'm in distribution).

You're right. They don't hire people if they have more money, they invest the money. Primarily they invest in their companies, through infrastructure/capacity/marketing spends, which mean more people building plants, building the machines for those plants, or working on Madison Ave., which leads to more people working elsewhere, etc. Then, if the marketing works, they take advantage of that capacity increase to meet demand and do it all again.
#26REDACTED, Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 4:03 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Ugly,
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