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The SmithsoniansFollow

#1 Dec 02 2010 at 9:03 AM Rating: Good
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The National Portrait Gallery is under fire over an exhibition called Hide/Seek. There was one piece in particular that is deemed an attack on catholicism by a spokesperson of the Catholic League. It's a video. In the video there is a crucifix with ants crawling on it.

Quote:
Martin Sullivan, director of the Smithsonian's National Portrait Gallery, says the artist created the piece as a response to the "agony and suffering" of his partner who at the time was dying of AIDS. Using "vivid colors, and some fairly grotesque scenes, it's more a meditation on the fragility of the human flesh," Sullivan says.

But included in that meditation is a crucifix — a cross bearing the body of Christ — crawling with ants. The image, according to Catholic League President Bill Donohue, is offensive. He calls the video "hate speech" and says that "the Smithsonian would never have their little ants crawling all over an image of Muhammad."

Donohue says he complained to members of Congress and the Smithsonian's Board of Regents. "My principle is very simple," he says, "If it's wrong for the government to take the taxpayers' money to promote religion, why is it OK to take taxpayers' money to assault religion?"

Donohue admits he has not seen the exhibition Hide/Seek, but he did see the video images of the ants on the crucifix online.

Donohue's concerns echo those of others who've complained to the National Portrait Gallery, says Sullivan. So Sullivan decided to remove A Fire In My Belly from the show.

"The concern that people of the Christian faith were apparently telling us — 'You wouldn't do this to a Muslim image' — was distracting to the larger and more important themes of the show, which is why we did the exhibition in the first place," Sullivan explains.

I think this is much ado about nothing. It's the old sticks and stones thing. But the argument that "if it was..... then you would/wouldn't...." is just stupid biased speculation. It pisses me off that Sullivan caved to that kind of logic. But eh, you gotta pick your battles right.

HERE's the video. I think it's pretty cool, very emotional, though very morbid....and may not be considered work safe.

If you were Sullivan would you have removed it?

Furthermore, this got me to thinking about about a visit I had to one of the Smithsonions. I'm pretty sure it was at the Air and Space Museum. The exhibit was how planes and the air force etc, etc had contributed to our military efforts throughout history. The WWII portion was extensive. Among other pieces of famous airplanes it contained the cockpit of the Enola Gay. Noticeably lacking, however, was any commentary on the significance of the Enola Gay.

As our society wanders through popular sentiment what we see and learn at the Smithsonians is clearly censored. Still I think they're worth the time, effort and cost to the tax-payers to maintain. But maybe they're really just eye-catching propaganda??

edit - back to fix some typos.

Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 4:27pm by Elinda
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#2 Dec 02 2010 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
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I understand why the church is pissed; Jesus actually had flies all over his body, not ants. They want any image of Jesus as historically accurate as possible.

Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 10:19am by Shaowstrike
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#3 Dec 02 2010 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
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Get this guy a proctologist.
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#4 Dec 02 2010 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
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I heard about this on the radio this morning.

My favorite quote from the fellow at the Catholic League was when he tried to argue that public subsidies for professional wrestling would be perceived as silly, and therefore we should cut off public funding for museums since they're both forms of entertainment.
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#5 Dec 02 2010 at 9:37 AM Rating: Good
Personally, I don't think that the U.S. government should be funding museums of any sort. That's the libertarian leanings in me sneaking out, though.

As to your suggestion of bias speculation, however, I think that ludicrous and completely myopic, ignoring obvious patterns of behavior in both government entities past & present and in certain unnamed religious groups. That's like saying we don't know what effect the next instance of yelling bomb on an airplane will have and suggesting it would be [whatever] is just biased speculation. Patterns of behavior are likely to be followed.
#6 Dec 02 2010 at 9:50 AM Rating: Good
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MoebiusLord wrote:
Personally, I don't think that the U.S. government should be funding museums of any sort. That's the libertarian leanings in me sneaking out, though.

As to your suggestion of bias speculation, however, I think that ludicrous and completely myopic, ignoring obvious patterns of behavior in both government entities past & present and in certain unnamed religious groups. That's like saying we don't know what effect the next instance of yelling bomb on an airplane will have and suggesting it would be [whatever] is just biased speculation. Patterns of behavior are likely to be followed.
So you're pretty confident, based on previous actions that if there indeed was an exhibit on a non religious topic but included an image of Mohammad crawling with ants that it would not be allowed?

I think you're full of shit. That's not a recent observation however.
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#7 Dec 02 2010 at 10:14 AM Rating: Excellent
Elinda wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Personally, I don't think that the U.S. government should be funding museums of any sort. That's the libertarian leanings in me sneaking out, though.

As to your suggestion of bias speculation, however, I think that ludicrous and completely myopic, ignoring obvious patterns of behavior in both government entities past & present and in certain unnamed religious groups. That's like saying we don't know what effect the next instance of yelling bomb on an airplane will have and suggesting it would be [whatever] is just biased speculation. Patterns of behavior are likely to be followed.
So you're pretty confident, based on previous actions that if there indeed was an exhibit on a non religious topic but included an image of Mohammad crawling with ants that it would not be allowed?

I think you're full of shit. That's not a recent observation however.

Less confident than I am that the government entity would not display it for fear of offending the religious group, but I think there's a better than 4:1 shot there'd be a very unfavorable reaction to it from the religious group that issues fatwas on cartoonists & novelists.
#8 Dec 02 2010 at 10:23 AM Rating: Good
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MoebiusLord wrote:
Personally, I don't think that the U.S. government should be funding museums of any sort. That's the libertarian leanings in me sneaking out, though.


Good grief, you believe in disorganised and randomly cherry-picked education and history-keeping instead of organised and systematic education and historical record keeping then?

Here's something I've seen again and again: those who don't know about the past are strongly inclined to repeat most of the past's mistakes. Because the obvious, immediate (practical/moral) solutions usually have subtle, deep- and wide-reaching adverse consequences.
#9 Dec 02 2010 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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MoebiusLord wrote:
Elinda wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Personally, I don't think that the U.S. government should be funding museums of any sort. That's the libertarian leanings in me sneaking out, though.

As to your suggestion of bias speculation, however, I think that ludicrous and completely myopic, ignoring obvious patterns of behavior in both government entities past & present and in certain unnamed religious groups. That's like saying we don't know what effect the next instance of yelling bomb on an airplane will have and suggesting it would be [whatever] is just biased speculation. Patterns of behavior are likely to be followed.
So you're pretty confident, based on previous actions that if there indeed was an exhibit on a non religious topic but included an image of Mohammad crawling with ants that it would not be allowed?

I think you're full of shit. That's not a recent observation however.

Less confident than I am that the government entity would not display it for fear of offending the religious group, but I think there's a better than 4:1 shot there'd be a very unfavorable reaction to it from the religious group that issues fatwas on cartoonists & novelists.
Death threats would certainly be a consideration. Still crazed zealots aside and all else being equal is there reason to believe that the Smithsonians as representative of the US government would 'favor' one religion over the other?

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#10 Dec 02 2010 at 1:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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I can't find the quote, but back in the late 80s/early 90s one of the NEA Directors commented (I believe in reference to Serrano's "**** Christ", which they were accused of funding) that there is nothing which can be considered art that should frighten or intimidate us. I agree, and I think that it is meant to make you think. You may not like what they are expressing, but they have a right to express it.
#11 Dec 02 2010 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
Elinda wrote:
Still crazed zealots aside and all else being equal is there reason to believe that the Smithsonians as representative of the US government would 'favor' one religion over the other?

All else is never equal.

Here's a better question: if a small town in the middle of Nebraska can't put a nativity scene in a town-owned park, why can the Smithsonian put up a picture of Jesus, regardless of his situation? If we get heated over a muzzy prayer room in a public college, why should Mohammad be able to be displayed in a publicly funded art museum?
#12 Dec 02 2010 at 1:33 PM Rating: Good
Atomicflea wrote:
I can't find the quote, but back in the late 80s/early 90s one of the NEA Directors commented (I believe in reference to Serrano's "**** Christ", which they were accused of funding) that there is nothing which can be considered art that should frighten or intimidate us. I agree, and I think that it is meant to make you think. You may not like what they are expressing, but they have a right to express it.

I agree with you 100%. They absolutely have the right to express it. That will never, in my mind, be the question.

The issue comes in what we, as a country, choose to fund with our hard earned money. The government has no business using tax revenue to fund art or its display with tax revenue.
#13 Dec 02 2010 at 1:35 PM Rating: Good
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MoebiusLord wrote:
Atomicflea wrote:
I can't find the quote, but back in the late 80s/early 90s one of the NEA Directors commented (I believe in reference to Serrano's "**** Christ", which they were accused of funding) that there is nothing which can be considered art that should frighten or intimidate us. I agree, and I think that it is meant to make you think. You may not like what they are expressing, but they have a right to express it.

I agree with you 100%. They absolutely have the right to express it. That will never, in my mind, be the question.

The issue comes in what we, as a country, choose to fund with our hard earned money. The government has no business using tax revenue to fund art or its display with tax revenue.
Right! What kind of country needs culture!?
#14 Dec 02 2010 at 1:40 PM Rating: Decent
LeWoVoc wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Atomicflea wrote:
I can't find the quote, but back in the late 80s/early 90s one of the NEA Directors commented (I believe in reference to Serrano's "**** Christ", which they were accused of funding) that there is nothing which can be considered art that should frighten or intimidate us. I agree, and I think that it is meant to make you think. You may not like what they are expressing, but they have a right to express it.

I agree with you 100%. They absolutely have the right to express it. That will never, in my mind, be the question.

The issue comes in what we, as a country, choose to fund with our hard earned money. The government has no business using tax revenue to fund art or its display with tax revenue.
Right! What kind of country needs culture!?

This country has done just fine with culture without government funding and would continue to do so were it removed. All government funding of the arts does is lead to artists becoming another entitled class with welfare under another name.
#15 Dec 02 2010 at 4:34 PM Rating: Good
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They should just forgive the artist. Isn't that what Christianity is all about anyway?
#16 Dec 02 2010 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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MoebiusLord wrote:
LeWoVoc wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Atomicflea wrote:
I can't find the quote, but back in the late 80s/early 90s one of the NEA Directors commented (I believe in reference to Serrano's "**** Christ", which they were accused of funding) that there is nothing which can be considered art that should frighten or intimidate us. I agree, and I think that it is meant to make you think. You may not like what they are expressing, but they have a right to express it.

I agree with you 100%. They absolutely have the right to express it. That will never, in my mind, be the question.

The issue comes in what we, as a country, choose to fund with our hard earned money. The government has no business using tax revenue to fund art or its display with tax revenue.
Right! What kind of country needs culture!?

This country has done just fine with culture without government funding and would continue to do so were it removed. All government funding of the arts does is lead to artists becoming another entitled class with welfare under another name.
Right! Artists don't do any real work!
#17 Dec 02 2010 at 5:04 PM Rating: Good
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LeWoVoc wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
LeWoVoc wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Atomicflea wrote:
I can't find the quote, but back in the late 80s/early 90s one of the NEA Directors commented (I believe in reference to Serrano's "**** Christ", which they were accused of funding) that there is nothing which can be considered art that should frighten or intimidate us. I agree, and I think that it is meant to make you think. You may not like what they are expressing, but they have a right to express it.

I agree with you 100%. They absolutely have the right to express it. That will never, in my mind, be the question.

The issue comes in what we, as a country, choose to fund with our hard earned money. The government has no business using tax revenue to fund art or its display with tax revenue.
Right! What kind of country needs culture!?

This country has done just fine with culture without government funding and would continue to do so were it removed. All government funding of the arts does is lead to artists becoming another entitled class with welfare under another name.
Right! Artists don't do any real work!


All the work, that an Fine Art degree make an artist qualified for jobs, that require them to be able to say. "Do you want fries with that?"

Actually I was well on my way to getting a job repairing computers, when I got too ill to work even for fast food places. Now I'm a Disable Artist.
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#18 Dec 02 2010 at 5:45 PM Rating: Good
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Deathwysh wrote:
They should just endlessly guilt the artist. Isn't that what Christianity is all about anyway?

FTFY
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#19 Dec 02 2010 at 6:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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MoebiusLord wrote:
Atomicflea wrote:
I can't find the quote, but back in the late 80s/early 90s one of the NEA Directors commented (I believe in reference to Serrano's "**** Christ", which they were accused of funding) that there is nothing which can be considered art that should frighten or intimidate us. I agree, and I think that it is meant to make you think. You may not like what they are expressing, but they have a right to express it.

I agree with you 100%. They absolutely have the right to express it. That will never, in my mind, be the question.

The issue comes in what we, as a country, choose to fund with our hard earned money. The government has no business using tax revenue to fund art or its display with tax revenue.

Are you also against funding for historical sites, or national parks? What I'm getting from you is that you don't feel that culture is worth government funding, and a country's art and religion both are part of that. We fund churches who do work that we find necessary to society as a whole, why not award art that moves society and culture forward?

I have no quarrel with the NEA. I'm glad that institutions like it, and the Smithsonian, exist to preserve so many artifacts that tell such an amazing story of us. I fail to see where it's like welfare, since the artists do produce work in exchange for the money. That you fail to see the value in what they produce is a whole 'nother matter.
#20 Dec 02 2010 at 7:38 PM Rating: Default
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Aripyanfar wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Personally, I don't think that the U.S. government should be funding museums of any sort. That's the libertarian leanings in me sneaking out, though.


Good grief, you believe in disorganised and randomly cherry-picked education and history-keeping instead of organised and systematic education and historical record keeping then?


The problem with your comparison is that "organized and systematic" systems are just as capable of cherry-picking education, art, and history as disorganized systems. I think what Moe is saying is that it would be better to have a thousand different voices each participating on their own, than one overwhelming one which drowns out everyone else. When government gets involved in art and history and education, its version of things tends to be assumed to be "official", but it's just as subject to socio-political manipulation.

Quote:
Here's something I've seen again and again: those who don't know about the past are strongly inclined to repeat most of the past's mistakes. Because the obvious, immediate (practical/moral) solutions usually have subtle, deep- and wide-reaching adverse consequences.


I'm not sure what this has to do with the subject at hand. Unless you're suggesting that having a government with too strong a hand in what we learn, what we see, and what we buy might just result in bad things down the line. Cause that would be learning from history.



On the broader issue though, I'd have to see the full video and context to make a judgment. The problem is that a lot of artists (especially the ones the NEA seems to love to fund) almost habitually and mindlessly dislike traditional religious iconography. It's not uncommon at all to see them portray such iconography in directly negative ways, in some cases seemingly for no reason at all other than to either shock the audience or just to toss in what appears to be their own personal feelings even if it makes no sense in the context of the artwork itself.

I also know full well that many artists exist in a sort of echo chamber. This is certainly true of those who work in film, and I'll assume it's true of many other forms as well. When you're surrounded with people from about age 10 who think it's funny or cool to bash religion any chance they get, at some point you stop thinking there's anything even unusual about it. Until you put some piece to which every single one of your friends and fellow art students/workers all say "Yeah man! That's so cool!" and people criticize it for being offensive that is. Then you cry about freedom of speech.


Um... So I guess what I'm saying is that artists should really get out more into the world they're trying to portray art *for* and spend less time in the world they portray art *from*. At least if they want people to accept said art. If they don't, then the question of why the government should pay them to do it should come to mind.
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#21 Dec 02 2010 at 7:50 PM Rating: Default
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Atomicflea wrote:
Are you also against funding for historical sites, or national parks? What I'm getting from you is that you don't feel that culture is worth government funding, and a country's art and religion both are part of that. We fund churches who do work that we find necessary to society as a whole, why not award art that moves society and culture forward?


Actually, by and large we don't (at least not as "fairly" as you might think). In many cases, being a church organization actually disqualifies said organization from federal funds which would otherwise be granted if "everything were equal". I've mentioned this with regard to how charity grants are handed out for years now. When Bush actually attempted to end the discrimination against religious charities by the government, with the so called "faith based initiatives" it was loudly and soundly attacked by the left and in the mainstream media as somehow promoting and supporting religion. He made some progress, but the playing field is far far from level.

There's a pretty clear double standard in terms of how we apply these things. Moe absolutely is correct there. What's funny is that you even think it *should* work one way (churches should receive funding for activities which would receive funding if they weren't churches), when you're justifying the funding of anti-religious art, but if we were actually talking about charitable organization grants, you'd almost certainly come down against or at least ambivalent towards the idea that being a church should not be a factor for consideration.

Quote:
I have no quarrel with the NEA. I'm glad that institutions like it, and the Smithsonian, exist to preserve so many artifacts that tell such an amazing story of us. I fail to see where it's like welfare, since the artists do produce work in exchange for the money. That you fail to see the value in what they produce is a whole 'nother matter.


Because people who work in exchange for money actually do something which the person with the money decides is worth said amount. In this case, the government is spending our money. So that "we" fail to see the value of what they produce certainly should be relevant. It's our money, right? If some rich guy wants to spend his money on your art, that's great. If a bunch of regular joes like what you do enough to buy tickets to see your art and you can make money that way, that's great too. But if the only way your art can get funded is if the government seizes people's money and spends it on said art, then there's kind of a problem, isn't there?
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#22 Dec 02 2010 at 8:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
But if the only way your art can get funded is if the government seizes people's money and spends it on said art, then there's kind of a problem, isn't there?

Eh, no more so than any other tax spending someone doesn't like. Probably less so given the amount spent on art versus the usual things to complain about.

As for it being the "only" way, museums usually aren't beating down the doors of people who can't get anyone to look at their art in a rush to buy up their pieces. You kinda have to be a known artist first, then the museums and galleries (private or otherwise) are interested in you.
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#23 Dec 02 2010 at 8:50 PM Rating: Good
Atomicflea wrote:
Are you also against funding for historical sites, or national parks? What I'm getting from you is that you don't feel that culture is worth government funding, and a country's art and religion both are part of that. We fund churches who do work that we find necessary to society as a whole, why not award art that moves society and culture forward?

I have no quarrel with the NEA. I'm glad that institutions like it, and the Smithsonian, exist to preserve so many artifacts that tell such an amazing story of us. I fail to see where it's like welfare, since the artists do produce work in exchange for the money. That you fail to see the value in what they produce is a whole 'nother matter.

I am against the Federal government doing a lot of things, absolutely. I am against the Federal government being the largest single land owner in this country. I am opposed to the idea of national parks and national museums. I think these things should be left to the people who live in the individual states and the governments they elect at a state and local level.
#24 Dec 02 2010 at 9:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
But if the only way your art can get funded is if the government seizes people's money and spends it on said art, then there's kind of a problem, isn't there?

Eh, no more so than any other tax spending someone doesn't like. Probably less so given the amount spent on art versus the usual things to complain about.


So slippery slope then? We spend this much on other things, so no reason to care about that much on one more...? Just checking.

Quote:
As for it being the "only" way, museums usually aren't beating down the doors of people who can't get anyone to look at their art in a rush to buy up their pieces. You kinda have to be a known artist first, then the museums and galleries (private or otherwise) are interested in you.


Except that large amounts of the NEA funding (at least the parts people complain about) are specifically to fund (in one way or another) art that museums would not have chosen to put on their walls if the government didn't pay them to do it. I guess I just don't understand your argument here. If the government doesn't have to pay to support said art for it to be showed/whatever, then we shouldn't do it. And if government does have to pay to support said art then we shouldn't do it.

You seem to be trying to simultaneously argue that without said funding, important art that people want or need to see wouldn't exist, but then also insist that the same art would be made available by museums or galleries without funding, so it's not like we're forcing people to pay for something that wouldn't be there anyway. It just seems inherently nonsensical.

Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 7:22pm by gbaji
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#25 Dec 02 2010 at 9:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
So slippery slope then?

No, a little thing called "perspective". And noting that "I don't like taxes spent on that!" is an equally valid or invalid argument against anything from... well, anything taxes are spent on, really.

Quote:
Except that large amounts of the NEA funding (at least the parts people complain about) are specifically to fund (in one way or another) art that museums would not have chosen to put on their walls if the government didn't pay them to do it.

That doesn't mean what you think it means.

Quote:
I guess I just don't understand your argument here.

Unsurprised.

Quote:
If the government doesn't have to pay to support said art for it to be showed/whatever, then we shouldn't do it.

The government has been collecting historical and cultural items since the dawn of the nation itself. You're welcome to your opinions but they haven't been held by the US government for as long (longer, really) as there has been a US government. Insert mocking comments here about the Holy And Divinely Omnipotent Founding Fathers and how you're bound to accept whatever they did or else you're not really American.
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#26 Dec 03 2010 at 1:28 AM Rating: Good
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MoebiusLord wrote:
Atomicflea wrote:
Are you also against funding for historical sites, or national parks? What I'm getting from you is that you don't feel that culture is worth government funding, and a country's art and religion both are part of that. We fund churches who do work that we find necessary to society as a whole, why not award art that moves society and culture forward?

I have no quarrel with the NEA. I'm glad that institutions like it, and the Smithsonian, exist to preserve so many artifacts that tell such an amazing story of us. I fail to see where it's like welfare, since the artists do produce work in exchange for the money. That you fail to see the value in what they produce is a whole 'nother matter.

I am against the Federal government doing a lot of things, absolutely. I am against the Federal government being the largest single land owner in this country. I am opposed to the idea of national parks and national museums. I think these things should be left to the people who live in the individual states and the governments they elect at a state and local level.

Funnily enough, the Federal Government is also "We, the people". They aren't the boss of us, we're the boss of them, unless we sit on our ***** on polling day. We own what they administer.
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