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#52 Dec 02 2010 at 12:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Reading quotes from the senate debate, John McCain is a douche Smiley: lol. Ah well, hopefully it won't matter and this will be repealed.

I skipped what gbaji said for the most part - a cursory reading suggests that he's saying once DADT is repealed no gays will be able to serve because we revert to previous, more restrictive laws? Huh. Glad I didn't read into it further, because that sounds quite crazy. I'm sure he's not saying that.
#53 Dec 02 2010 at 1:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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LockeColeMA wrote:
a cursory reading suggests that he's saying once DADT is repealed no gays will be able to serve because we revert to previous, more restrictive laws? Huh. Glad I didn't read into it further, because that sounds quite crazy. I'm sure he's not saying that.

He's saying that. Mind you, he saying it because he has a lack of understanding about how legislation works (not the least of which is a very basic understanding of "repeal") and not because it's accurate but he is, in fact, saying it.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#54 Dec 02 2010 at 10:52 PM Rating: Decent
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@gbaji: Basically, you don't understand that being pedantic doesn't count as making a legitimate argument. What DADT legislation "technically" is or was doesn't mean jack **** to anybody or anybody else.

So gbaji thinks we don't understand how DADT legislation works, when we just don't care. When people talk about DADT now, they are referring to the policy of preventing gays from openly serving. No legislators are confused by this, the president isn't confused by this, the generals and the entirety of the military aren't, and the electorate isn't confused by it either (though they would be if they talked to gbaji)... only gbaji doesn't seem to get it.

Surprise.
#55 Dec 18 2010 at 11:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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The DADT repeal bill overcame the GOP filibuster today (Republican senators Snowe, Collins, Brown and Murkowski voted for, Dem. Senator Manchin voted against) and is expected to come to a full vote tomorrow where it should easily clear the 50 vote hurdle. Tough news, Alma, Gbaji, Varus & kin.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#56 Dec 20 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
LockeColeMA wrote:
a cursory reading suggests that he's saying once DADT is repealed no gays will be able to serve because we revert to previous, more restrictive laws? Huh. Glad I didn't read into it further, because that sounds quite crazy. I'm sure he's not saying that.

He's saying that. Mind you, he saying it because he has a lack of understanding about how legislation works (not the least of which is a very basic understanding of "repeal") and not because it's accurate but he is, in fact, saying it.


Um... No. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that while the word "repeal" is used in front of the public because it fits into the semantic methodology being used right now, that's *not* what we're actually doing. When you repeal a law, you reverse everything that law did. They may be calling this a "repeal" of DADT, but what they're actually doing is writing a new law which changes the existing law in order to remove the prohibition from gays serving openly in the military.

That's *not* a repeal of DADT. It's funny that you attack me for not knowing how legislative processes work, when it's you who are clinging to the rhetoric used while ignoring what is actually happening.
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#57 Dec 20 2010 at 3:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
When people talk about DADT now, they are referring to the policy of preventing gays from openly serving.


Yes. I get that. They are deliberately misrepresenting the issue to the public in order to dumb down the issue for them. But in the process they are demonizing a law which at the time it was passed was a huge step forwards for gays serving in the military.

Quote:
No legislators are confused by this, the president isn't confused by this, the generals and the entirety of the military aren't, and the electorate isn't confused by it either (though they would be if they talked to gbaji)... only gbaji doesn't seem to get it.


The fact that so many posters keep arguing that DADT was harmful to gay rights and is to blame for gay people not being able to serve openly in the military kinda proves that many people *are* confused about this. And that confusion almost certainly derives from the use of the word "repeal" in the context of this issue. Because most people correctly understand that when you repeal a law, you are reversing/eliminating it. So if repealing DADT removes the restriction on gays openly serving in the military, then logically DADT must have been the law which created that restriction, right?

Are you seriously arguing that this *isn't* going on? Of course people are confused.
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#58 Dec 20 2010 at 4:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
They may be calling this a "repeal" of DADT, but what they're actually doing is writing a new law which changes the existing law in order to remove the prohibition from gays serving openly in the military.

The law strikes the old text. It's a repeal. The fact that you don't know what you're talking about doesn't change this fact.

S.4023 -- Don't Ask, Don't Tell Repeal Act of 2010 via Thomas.loc wrote:
(f) Treatment of 1993 Policy-

(1) TITLE 10- Upon the effective date established by subsection (b), chapter 37 of title 10, United States Code, is amended--

(A) by striking section 654; and
(B) in the table of sections at the beginning of such chapter, by striking the item relating to section 654.


Section 654 is the 1993/94 Military Policy on Homosexuality, aka "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

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That's *not* a repeal of DADT. It's funny that you attack me for not knowing how legislative processes work, when it's you who are clinging to the rhetoric used while ignoring what is actually happening.

lulz.

Edited, Dec 20th 2010 7:38pm by Jophiel
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#59 Dec 20 2010 at 8:11 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Section 654 is the 1993/94 Military Policy on Homosexuality, aka "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"


Um... That's great. That's one section of the military policy that was changed by DADT, and large portions of it were already in effect (in one form or another) prior to DADT. Where's the "Dont ask" part of the law Joph?

Aren't you kinda missing something? If you repeal the change, you repeal the whole thing, not just one half of it (and the smaller half really). I'll point out again that it was already an offense to be engage in homosexual activities while serving in the military prior to the passage of DADT. I've said this numerous times, but some of you just keep on ignoring it, like it'll magically stop being true at some point.

What they are doing is not a "repeal" of DADT. Let's not confuse the label that's used with what is actually happening. If they repealed DADT, we'd go back to the way the military code was prior to DADT, which would still leave gays unable to serve in the military, and subject to far more penalty than discharge. It's just amazing to me that you keep clinging to a purely semantic label.

I get why the politician call this a repeal. I really do. But can we at least acknowledge that that's not actually what's going on here?
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#60 Dec 20 2010 at 8:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Um... That's great. That's one section of the military policy that was changed by DADT, and large portions of it were already in effect (in one form or another) prior to DADT. Where's the "Dont ask" part of the law Joph?

OMG you totally got me th--- oh, wait. Try turning the page.
Quote:
(d) SENSE OF CONGRESS- It is the sense of Congress that--

(1) the suspension of questioning concerning homosexuality as part of the processing of individuals for accession into the Armed Forces under the interim policy of January 29, 1993, should be continued, but the Secretary of Defense may reinstate that questioning with such questions or such revised questions as he considers appropriate if the Secretary determines that it is necessary to do so in order to effectuate the policy set forth in section 654 of title 10, United States Code, as added by subsection (a); and

(2) the Secretary of Defense should consider issuing guidance governing the circumstances under which members of the Armed Forces questioned about homosexuality for administrative purposes should be afforded warnings similar to the warnings under section 831(b) of title 10, United States Code (article 31(b) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice).

Bolding mine. I'm not sure it'll help you though.

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Aren't you kinda missing something?

Someone to talk to who actually has a clue?

Ah, always good for the lulz. You'd think you'd cut your losses and give up but you keep coming back to trumpet your ignorance.

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I'll point out again that it was already an offense to be engage in homosexual activities while serving in the military prior to the passage of DADT

It. Does. Not. Matter. Section 654 of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1994 is what governed homosexuality in the military. That's it. That was the law of the land. It's not like pulling up carpeting where you remove the shag and say "Now the new floor is this tile laid in 1955! Oh, wait.. we pulled this up and now the new floor is this hardwood from 1940!" Do you really think this is the case? Seriously? There was no hardwood under the DADT policy in the 1993/94 bill -- that policy was the law.

By all means, tell me exactly which homosexuality-banning law we're now under once DADT is repealed. Give me chapter and verse here.

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If they repealed DADT, we'd go back to the way the military code was prior to DADT

It's hilarious that you believe this is true. I've never known someone who was more convinced of how much he knew and who yet knew so very little.

Edited, Dec 20th 2010 8:26pm by Jophiel
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#61 Dec 21 2010 at 8:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Yes. I get that. They are deliberately misrepresenting the issue to the public in order to dumb down the issue for them. But in the process they are demonizing a law which at the time it was passed was a huge step forwards for gays serving in the military.


So what? No really: So what?

Should we have a conversation about how GREAT "separate but equal" was for the blacks? I mean, that was a big step forward!

Quote:
The fact that so many posters keep arguing that DADT was harmful to gay rights and is to blame for gay people not being able to serve openly in the military kinda proves that many people *are* confused about this.


No, they argue that it IS harmful to gay rights, and is to blame for gay people not being able to serve openly in the military, which is CORRECT.

Are you aware that when you're very obviously full of **** and still insistently defend your position, it really casts a shadow of invalidation on those times when you might actually have a decent point? At least, if there is such a time.

Seriously, I lately wonder if you're a DNC plant, paid to show us all how ridiculous the GDP is. Somebody get me a tinfoil hat for Xmas.
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