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Question about healthcare repealFollow

#52 Nov 04 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
varusword75 wrote:
Moe,

ha ha beat you.


Um, ok?
#53 Nov 04 2010 at 1:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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MoebiusLord wrote:
Apparently, those are issues the Democrats have decided are unimportant.

But Democrats won't be voting for Rubio anyway.

Unless you mean they're all issues that weren't ever actually important but the Republicans harped on them anyway. Or issues that are all very important but Republicans would overlook in this instance.

Realistically, I don't see Rubio running in this cycle anyway.
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Belkira wrote:
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#54 Nov 04 2010 at 1:17 PM Rating: Decent
Jophiel wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Apparently, those are issues the Democrats have decided are unimportant.

But Democrats won't be voting for Rubio anyway.

Unless you mean they're all issues that weren't ever actually important but the Republicans harped on them anyway. Or issues that are all very important but Republicans would overlook in this instance.

Realistically, I don't see Rubio running in this cycle anyway.

I'm suggesting that the Democrats were so effective at getting their message out that they have changed the hearts and minds of the American public. It is enough experience to lead a country to have been a junior legislator. I know I've seen the light.

I don't see him running either.
#55 Nov 04 2010 at 1:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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MoebiusLord wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
Moe,

ha ha beat you.


Um, ok?


I think he meant to say "beat off to you."

Ick.

As for Rubio, I don't know much about him. Things I do know:

1. He's Cuban-American.
2. He praised the truth of "one God" in his victory speech. Le sigh, another Christian politician.
3. He has some good ideas for making schools competitive, but I highly doubt they'll happen as he ran on cutting spending without raising taxes.
4. He is against abortion, and supports requiring ultrasounds and presenting them to women before an abortion.
5. Supports a federal amendment to ban same-sex marriage.
6. He's against amnesty of any form, although he made remarks against AZ's immigration law and supports allowing children of illegals to pay in-state tuition in college.

Overall, I'm interested in seeing what he does. He was not a Tea Party candidate, but he ran on their rhetoric. I'm actually not opposed to many of his financial positions, although many of his social views rub me the wrong way. I just feel like his fiscal ideas are rather unlikely to work - cutting spending sounds great until you see what you'll go without, and low taxes are great until you find out you can't balance the budget without raising them.
#56 Nov 04 2010 at 1:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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MoebiusLord wrote:
I'm suggesting that the Democrats were so effective at getting their message out that they have changed the hearts and minds of the American public.

NOVEMBER 2ND WOULD PROVE YOU WRONG IN THIS INSTANCE, GOOD SIR!
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#57 Nov 04 2010 at 1:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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LockeColeMA wrote:
low taxes are great until you find out you can't balance the budget without raising them.

You just cut waste and fraud. Isn't that always the stock answer?
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#58 Nov 04 2010 at 1:26 PM Rating: Decent
Jophiel wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
I'm suggesting that the Democrats were so effective at getting their message out that they have changed the hearts and minds of the American public.

NOVEMBER 2ND WOULD PROVE YOU WRONG IN THIS INSTANCE, GOOD SIR!

I've seen the resumes of some of the candidates, and I have to tell you I think I'm right. There were a lot of inexperienced people elected to positions of power this week.
#59 Nov 04 2010 at 1:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Touché.
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Belkira wrote:
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#60 Nov 04 2010 at 3:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Been stuck in meetings all day, so I'll touch on a couple points:

MoebiusLord wrote:
It brings the model of that service in to a more competitive place. Lasik (sp?)_costs used to be exorbitant. Now providers have price wars to entice customers to their centers. Why isn't medicine in general done along the same lines?


It's interesting just how stark the dividing line is between products and services which are subsidized/regulated/mandated or otherwise heavily government controlled, and those which are not. In areas where they are not, the same pattern of competition consistently results in an increasingly superior product at an increasingly more affordable price to the consumer. Where the government is involved, you see the opposite. Costs rise. Product improvements slow to a crawl.

If lasik had been covered by health care systems, anyone want to argue that the price and quality would have improved as much as it has? In a nutshell, that's your argument right there.


Sir Xsarus wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Sir Xsarus wrote:
I'm not sure treating states as competing companies who offer specific services is really a terribly healthy way to look at it, or determine policy.

And yet that, specifically, is among the founding ideals of this experiment we call the United States of America that has has been largely a resounding success for nearly two and a half centuries.
States governing themselves is. Are you saying that the idea that people should assess all the states and pick the one they like best rather then work to change the state they are in is an ideal?


That's a false dilemma IMO. People can *both* work to make the state they are in the ideal they want *and* choose to move to another state which is either already the way they want, or closer to it and more likely to be movable to that idea. The real dilemma is between a system in which one set of rules exists for the whole country and everyone has to fight over and live with that one result, or a system in which there are 50 different sets of rules allowing both for people to more easily change the rules they live under *or* move to a state where the rules are more to their liking.

If you were to assess which system would allow the most people to live under a set of rules they like, it's pretty obvious that the "keep most differences at the state level" model works best. The absolute best you can do is get 51% of the people to like a single federal system. You can potentially get much much much higher levels of happiness and agreement if you keep that process at the state level instead.


And isn't "pursuit of happiness" one of our founding principles?



As to the original question? We could simply roll back the health care to what it was prior to the passage of the health care bill with minimal effect on anyone right now. What that would do is at least reduce the looming costs associated with said bill. That's not to say that we don't have other looming costs in the form of social security and medicare, but it's a decent start. I frankly never understood the logic of arguing that since we can't afford what we're doing right now, that we should just do more of it. The follow up argument (which I've heard a lot of in the last couple days) that if we can't fix the original problem we shouldn't bother wasting our time on the subsequent problems is equally fallacious.

It's a good start. And maybe if we hadn't been put into a situation where we have to first undo all the spending from the last 2 years piled on top of our already unsustainable spending, we'd be able to focus on the real problems instead of having to dig through 5 feet of garbage just to see it again.
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#61 Nov 04 2010 at 3:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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mispost

Edited, Nov 4th 2010 4:07pm by trickybeck
#62 Nov 04 2010 at 3:13 PM Rating: Good
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trickybeck wrote:
mispost

One of your best!
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#63 Nov 04 2010 at 5:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Score: Excellent

Clearly.

#64 Nov 04 2010 at 7:31 PM Rating: Good
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trickybeck wrote:
Quote:
Score: Excellent

Clearly.

There's a lesson in this
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#65 Nov 04 2010 at 7:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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MoebiusLord wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
How about Rubio?

A young state legislator turned first-term senator? But.. but... what about experience!?! What about 3 AM phone calls!?! What about foreign policy!?!

Apparently, those are issues the Democrats have decided are unimportant.


Not just Democrats, since this entire election cycle has been one big anti-incumbent hysteria fest.

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#66 Nov 04 2010 at 10:17 PM Rating: Good
Rubio's certainly closer to the center than Palin, but not as close as Romney. However, Rubio isn't "handicapped" by Healthcare or Mormonism so he'd actually be a decent candidate on paper to run against Obama. He'd probably even be less divisive for the GOP than Palin or Romney would be in the primary.

But will he run?
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#67 Nov 05 2010 at 2:57 PM Rating: Default
Samy,

Quote:
Not just Democrats, since this entire election cycle has been one big anti-incumbent hysteria fest.


Yes mainly just Democrats. This was not an anti-incumbent election cycle it was an anti liberal agenda election cycle. Look at how many state legislatures changed hands. Look at how, and who, is taking control of the house. Look at which movement (tea party) actually made an impact.

Of course your good little goose-stepping liberal buddies want you to think it's anti-incumbent but they're also the same people who told you the Dems were going to be in control of congress the next 20yrs.

#68 Nov 05 2010 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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varusword75 wrote:
Samy,

Quote:
Not just Democrats, since this entire election cycle has been one big anti-incumbent hysteria fest.


Yes mainly just Democrats. This was not an anti-incumbent election cycle it was an anti liberal agenda election cycle. Look at how many state legislatures changed hands. Look at how, and who, is taking control of the house. Look at which movement (tea party) actually made an impact.

Of course your good little goose-stepping liberal buddies want you to think it's anti-incumbent but they're also the same people who told you the Dems were going to be in control of congress the next 20yrs.

Spot on, varus! And the fact that corporations can now give as much as they want to any candidate they want had nothing to do with any of it! Yeah!
#69 Nov 05 2010 at 3:09 PM Rating: Decent
LeWoVoc wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
Samy,

Quote:
Not just Democrats, since this entire election cycle has been one big anti-incumbent hysteria fest.


Yes mainly just Democrats. This was not an anti-incumbent election cycle it was an anti liberal agenda election cycle. Look at how many state legislatures changed hands. Look at how, and who, is taking control of the house. Look at which movement (tea party) actually made an impact.

Of course your good little goose-stepping liberal buddies want you to think it's anti-incumbent but they're also the same people who told you the Dems were going to be in control of congress the next 20yrs.

Spot on, varus! And the fact that corporations can now give as much as they want to any candidate they want had nothing to do with any of it! Yeah!

You mean the fact that a company can now give it's view with as much money as a union lobbying against that company's interests is a bad thing? Boy was I right about you.
#70 Nov 05 2010 at 4:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:
Samy,

Quote:
Not just Democrats, since this entire election cycle has been one big anti-incumbent hysteria fest.


Yes mainly just Democrats. This was not an anti-incumbent election cycle it was an anti liberal agenda election cycle. Look at how many state legislatures changed hands. Look at how, and who, is taking control of the house. Look at which movement (tea party) actually made an impact.


Mike Castle in Delaware, Charlie Crist in Florida, and Lisa Murkowski in Alaska would disagree with you on that liberals only idea. Granted, Murkowski might still pull off an upset as a write-in.
#71 Nov 05 2010 at 4:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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That's because they were JUST LIKE DEMOCRATS!!

Like that Bob Bennett guy from Utah:
Quote:
Yesterday evening, Utah Sen. Bob Bennett was eliminated from the state's Republican primary by attorney Mike Lee and entrepreneur Tim Bridgewater—even though he is anything but the Beehive State edition of Joe Lieberman, perpetually at odds with his party. During his three terms in office, Bennett almost never deviated from strict conservative orthodoxy. As a result, he earned a lifetime American Conservative Union rating of 84, a National Right to Life rating of 100, a Family Research Council rating of 88, a U.S. Chamber of Commerce rating of 100, an Americans for Tax Reform rating of 90, a National Journal ranking as the GOP caucus's 23rd most conservative senator—seven spots higher than Utah's senior senator, Orrin Hatch—and the unshakable trust of Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, who chose Bennett as his consigliere on the Senate Republican Leadership Council.


******* RINOS getting in the way! It was never anti-incumbent!
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#72 Nov 05 2010 at 4:27 PM Rating: Good
MoebiusLord wrote:
LeWoVoc wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
Samy,

Quote:
Not just Democrats, since this entire election cycle has been one big anti-incumbent hysteria fest.


Yes mainly just Democrats. This was not an anti-incumbent election cycle it was an anti liberal agenda election cycle. Look at how many state legislatures changed hands. Look at how, and who, is taking control of the house. Look at which movement (tea party) actually made an impact.

Of course your good little goose-stepping liberal buddies want you to think it's anti-incumbent but they're also the same people who told you the Dems were going to be in control of congress the next 20yrs.

Spot on, varus! And the fact that corporations can now give as much as they want to any candidate they want had nothing to do with any of it! Yeah!

You mean the fact that a company can now give it's view with as much money as a union lobbying against that company's interests is a bad thing? Boy was I right about you.


Too much bribery going on in Washington altogether. My big ***** is that the rich crowd can funnel millions into campaign advertisements anonymously. I want to know who is buying my politicians, thank you.
#73 Nov 05 2010 at 5:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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MoebiusLord wrote:
You mean the fact that a company can now give it's view with as much money as a union lobbying against that company's interests is a bad thing? Boy was I right about you.
When this issue first came up, I looked into it, and the ruling applies to unions as well as companies. Both were limited before, both are unlimited now.
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#74 Nov 05 2010 at 5:40 PM Rating: Good
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MoebiusLord wrote:
LeWoVoc wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
Samy,

Quote:
Not just Democrats, since this entire election cycle has been one big anti-incumbent hysteria fest.


Yes mainly just Democrats. This was not an anti-incumbent election cycle it was an anti liberal agenda election cycle. Look at how many state legislatures changed hands. Look at how, and who, is taking control of the house. Look at which movement (tea party) actually made an impact.

Of course your good little goose-stepping liberal buddies want you to think it's anti-incumbent but they're also the same people who told you the Dems were going to be in control of congress the next 20yrs.

Spot on, varus! And the fact that corporations can now give as much as they want to any candidate they want had nothing to do with any of it! Yeah!

You mean the fact that a company can now give it's view with as much money as a union lobbying against that company's interests is a bad thing? Boy was I right about you.
I'm against both, for the record. But adding corporations into the mix certainly had an effect on this election.
#75 Nov 05 2010 at 6:32 PM Rating: Default
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
You mean the fact that a company can now give it's view with as much money as a union lobbying against that company's interests is a bad thing? Boy was I right about you.
When this issue first came up, I looked into it, and the ruling applies to unions as well as companies. Both were limited before, both are unlimited now.


Yes. The court ruling which upheld the new law which changed campaign donation rules applied to both corporations and unions. But the new law only changed that status for corporations. Unions were previously allowed to donate but corporations were denied the right to do this.

The ruling effectively evened that playing field. One which had previously been unfairly skewed towards unions. That's why liberals opposed it. Or did your research fail to reveal this?


Put another way: The ruling was like saying that both men and women should have a right to vote. It's kinda lame after the fact to say that this benefits men just as much as women when men always have and women haven't.

Edited, Nov 5th 2010 5:35pm by gbaji
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#76 Nov 05 2010 at 8:19 PM Rating: Good
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I feel pretty warm and fuzzy, nestled here in my little incumbent/Democratic corner of the nation.
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