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"I'm rich; tax me more!"Follow

#1 Sep 28 2010 at 11:44 AM Rating: Excellent
Garrett Gruener, one of the dot come era millions, says this in an OpEd in the LA Times:

Quote:
For nearly the last decade, I've paid income taxes at the lowest rates of my professional career. Before that, I paid at higher rates. And if you want the simple, honest truth, from my perspective as an entrepreneur, the fluctuation didn't affect what I did with my money. None of my investments has ever been motivated by the rate at which I would have to pay personal income tax.

...

No one particularly enjoys paying taxes, but one lesson we should have learned by now is that for the good of the country, we need to tax people like me more. At a minimum, we need to return to the tax rates of the Clinton era, when the economy performed far better. Simply taxing the wealthiest 2% of Americans at the same rates they were taxed before the Bush tax cuts could reduce the national deficit by $700 billion over the next 10 years. Remember, paying slightly more in personal income taxes won't change my investment choices at all, and I don't think a higher tax rate will change the investment decisions of most other high earners.

What will change my investment decisions is if I see an economy doing better, one in which there is demand for the goods and services my investments produce. I am far more likely to invest if I see a country laying the foundation for future growth. In order to get there, we first need to let the Bush-era tax cuts for the upper 2% lapse. It is time to tax me more.


I think this is the money quote here:

Quote:
What will change my investment decisions is if I see an economy doing better, one in which there is demand for the goods and services my investments produce.


True entrepreneurs are going to make it big regardless of whether they're getting taxed at 30% or 40% on their personal income. Since business revenues that are reinvested back into the business aren't taxed anyway, there's a school of thought that higher tax rates actually encourage reinvestment.
#2 Sep 28 2010 at 11:46 AM Rating: Good
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Wow. A rich person with some sense. Awesome. Wonder what the local conservative triumvirate will say about this one?
#3 Sep 28 2010 at 11:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Princess ShadorVIII wrote:
Wow. A rich person with some sense. Awesome. Wonder what the local conservative triumvirate will say about this one?


"An opinion article doesn't mean it's a fact. Let me expound this point for several paragraphs."

"so it's all bushs fault. nice goosestepping, liberal pinko commie."

"... i just wanna be like varus. but more boring."

Guess which quote belongs to whom!
#4 Sep 28 2010 at 11:55 AM Rating: Good
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LockeColeMA wrote:
Princess ShadorVIII wrote:
Wow. A rich person with some sense. Awesome. Wonder what the local conservative triumvirate will say about this one?


gbaji wrote:
"An opinion article doesn't mean it's a fact. Let me expound this point for several paragraphs."


varus wrote:
"so it's all bushs fault. nice goosestepping, liberal pinko commie."


ThiefX wrote:
"... i just wanna be like varus. but more boring."


Guess which quote belongs to whom!


Done. What do I win? ^_^
#5 Sep 28 2010 at 12:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ding ding ding! Next time I should make it tougher...

Win?

Eh... a topic derail into Republicans refusing to stop job outsourcing during an election season. And I guess a rate-up. If I had premium, a cookie. Or a goat.

Edited, Sep 28th 2010 2:20pm by LockeColeMA
#6 Sep 28 2010 at 12:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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LockeColeMA wrote:
If I had premium, a Smiley: cookie. Or a Smiley: goat.
There you go.
#7REDACTED, Posted: Sep 28 2010 at 12:43 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Cat,
#8 Sep 28 2010 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
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varusword75 wrote:
Cat,

Quote:
True entrepreneurs are going to make it big regardless of whether they're getting taxed at 30% or 40% on their personal income.


So you're against all types of welfare; glad to hear you're finally coming around.

I mean if the tax rate has no bearing on whether "true entrepreneurs" make it or not the same can be said for everyone right? If someone is going to make it they're going to make it right?

Let's apply it to healthcare as well; people who truly believe in healhcare are going to get it regardless. And those that don't didn't really want it anyway.





LoLwut?
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#9 Sep 28 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Excellent
Reeks of the same kind of desperate 'vindication' you get when a cult finds a scientist willing to join.

...

I'm a republican!
#10REDACTED, Posted: Sep 28 2010 at 12:58 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Paula,
#11 Sep 28 2010 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
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varusword75 wrote:
Paula,

Some liberal posts some whacked out spoiled brat of a millionaires opinion about how he's not being taxed enough and that's supposed to mean something?

Fact is if we follow the train of thought that taxes don't matter to business then the same can be said of the people who comprise the business world.

The simple fact is the more money small businessmen have to put back into their business the faster it will grow and the more successful it, and it's employees, will be.

No amount of Soros like ramblings from out of touch gazillionaires is going to change that.




Hows that CD changer workin out for you?
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#12 Sep 28 2010 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
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varusword75 wrote:
The simple fact is the more money small businessmen have to put back into their business the faster it will grow and the more successful it, and it's employees, will be.
So, you're in favour of higher taxes for the rich?
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#13 Sep 28 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Personal tax rates are not the same as Business tax rates. Wealthy people turn much of their personal money into assets via investment. This is what Greuner is talking about. What he chooses to invest in with his own personal income is not dependant on the rate that the government taxes it at.
#14 Sep 28 2010 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
I don't get it. You'd think that the Republicans would want to hurt the "out of touch gazillionaires like Soros" - and yet they so very desperately want to protect their income, even at the expense of the national deficit.
#15 Sep 28 2010 at 2:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aripyanfar wrote:
Personal tax rates are not the same as Business tax rates.

Yeah, I never got that about the "Your boss won't be able to afford you!" hysteria. The money a a company makes which is then put towards capital improvements or new employees shouldn't be getting taxed as the owner's personal income anyway unless he does an exceptionally shitty job of maintaining his finances.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#16 Sep 28 2010 at 2:56 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Aripyanfar wrote:
Personal tax rates are not the same as Business tax rates.

Yeah, I never got that about the "Your boss won't be able to afford you!" hysteria. The money a a company makes which is then put towards capital improvements or new employees shouldn't be getting taxed as the owner's personal income anyway unless he does an exceptionally shitty job of maintaining his finances.


Or unless the business is a sole proprietorship. LLCs are considered separate entities - sole proprietorships are considered the actual property and money of the owner.

Of course, it is VERY risky to run a sole proprietorship due to the ability to lose everything if you get sued or the company goes under.
#17REDACTED, Posted: Sep 28 2010 at 3:18 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Aripya,
#18 Sep 28 2010 at 3:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
You're right. And most small businesses file their business under their personal taxes. So increasing taxes on people who claim over 250k on their personal taxes, which includes their business, is going to completely f*ck small businesses (3-20 employees).
Smiley: dubious

Edited, Sep 28th 2010 4:39pm by Xsarus
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#19 Sep 28 2010 at 3:50 PM Rating: Decent
varusword75 wrote:
And most small businesses file their business under their personal taxes.


Wrong.

Quote:
And most small business owners are sole proprietorships. And most employees work for these people.


Wrong again.
#20 Sep 28 2010 at 4:02 PM Rating: Excellent
You guys really can't fault varus for being wrong. Daddy doesn't let him near the tax stuff.
#21 Sep 28 2010 at 4:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:

Locked,

Quote:
Or unless the business is a sole proprietorship. LLCs are considered separate entities - sole proprietorships are considered the actual property and money of the owner.


And most small business owners are sole proprietorships. And most employees work for these people.


I would like your stats on this. I'm several years out of college now, but I seem to recall the stats back then being something like 80+% of businesses that last more than 2 years are LLCs. You might be referring to businesses in total - I don't remember any stats on those... but as most of them fail within two years, I'm not sure it's a good idea to count them at all. It is very cheap to incorporate (and you can do it yourself), and while you will be "taxed twice" (ie, the business is taxed as a separate entity, and you are taxed for your own personal income), that is far outweighed by the coverage in knowing that no matter how bad you mess up, the worst you can lose is your start-up capital. Also, you can donate twice to political causes since you're now practically two people!

I'm also interested in the stat that most people work for these small sole proprietorships. I would image many more work for large companies as opposed to independently owned, non-franchised spots. I don't think franchises like McDonald's are allowed the name unless they are LLCs.

For fun I looked up how to open a McDonald's and got this nifty article: http://www.ehow.com/how_2073634_open-mcdonalds-franchise.html

eHow makes me happy :D

Edited, Sep 28th 2010 6:15pm by LockeColeMA
#22 Sep 28 2010 at 4:23 PM Rating: Default
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Aripyanfar wrote:
Personal tax rates are not the same as Business tax rates. Wealthy people turn much of their personal money into assets via investment. This is what Greuner is talking about. What he chooses to invest in with his own personal income is not dependant on the rate that the government taxes it at.


A semi-valid point, except that even though income taxes are getting the lion's share of the public discussion, capital gains taxes are *also* set to increase in January if the Bush tax cuts aren't extended. So that's just a bit of distraction. He's saying "Don't extend the tax cuts because increases to income taxes for the rich don't matter much!", when said tax extension also affects capital gains which absolutely does. He also talks about how we should go back to the Clinton tax rates, yet then switches to talking about just increasing taxes for "the rich".

If you truly believe that the Clinton tax rates are better, and your argument is that we need those tax rates to reduce future deficits, then why limit the issue to just the top 2%, which will only net you 700B over the next 10 years, when you could let the whole thing expire and get ~3T? Strange that the principle of "generating more needed revenue" falls apart so quickly. The left is playing a really funny game of verbal bait and switch with this issue. They focus so hard on that 2% and kinda hope no one notices the rest of the issue.


Oh. And it's just one guys opinion, so it's not a fact. Nyah!
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#23 Sep 28 2010 at 4:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Your earnings get taxed as capital gains even when you reinvest those capital gains and don't actually take the cash?
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#24 Sep 28 2010 at 4:48 PM Rating: Excellent
If a small business is a sole proprietorship and you're also employing people, then frankly, you're taking a huge, unnecessary risk. If you've grown large enough to the point where you need additional help for your business, it's time to transform into an S Corp. Call your family members "shareholders" and get in on that action. You get most of the tax advantages of a sole proprietorship with most the safety net of an LLC.



#25 Sep 28 2010 at 4:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Silly not to incorporate.

Really silly to tax people making $30K/yr more than we tax people making $30M/yr, just because the richer people have better access to tax shelters.

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#26 Sep 28 2010 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
varusword75 wrote:
Aripya,

Quote:
Personal tax rates are not the same as Business tax rates


You're right. And most small businesses file their business under their personal taxes. So increasing taxes on people who claim over 250k on their personal taxes, which includes their business, is going to completely f*ck small businesses (3-20 employees).
[/quote]

Not income, net profit.

Your small business would have to profit over $250k (US) in a single year to be effected! You can deduct this down to a reasonable level VERY easily. Buy assets the day before taxes are due, sell them off the day after, presto! taxes avoided.

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