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#102 Sep 07 2010 at 2:18 PM Rating: Good
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FACTS:
Starting in the late 1930s, scientests began to experiment with "controlled mutation", hoping to induce and select favorable mutations in plants and animals, producing new and better plants and animals. Scientists in the U.S., Europe, and Asia launched well-funded programs to do this. However, almost all the mutants died or were, in fact, weaker than the original varieties. And the mutations never produced a new species.

Mutation experiments repeatedly found that the number of new mutants steadily declined, while the same type of mutants regularly appeared. In addition, less than 1% of the plant mutations were chosen for further research and less than 1% of this group were found suitable for commercial use. The results in animals were even worse, and the method was abandoned entirely.

(for more information, see the book "Mutation Breeding, Evolution, and teh Law of Recurrent Variation" by scientist Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig).

Ponder this: If highly trained scientists are unable to produce new species by artifically inducing and selecting favorable mutations, is it likely that that an unintelligent process would do a better job?


I dont have time to go thru the whole post, but I'll have a poke at this bit....

That whole quote is talking about humans trying to improve the 'strains' od various species in pursuit of an improvement from a purely industrial production point of view. Those scientists were being given the job of improving yields on farms, hence words like 'improved', 'favourable', 'new and better' being used. That should have been your clue really.

Many plants (corn being the obvious one) have been selectivly bred to improve their yields for the agriculture industry. this has led them to become so specialized that they have been unable to survive without human intervention (corn actually did this itself several thousand years ago).

Nature (evolution) doesn't use the same algorithms as humans and cares little for industrial yields as an end result.

By comparing natural 'evolutionary' systems to experiments by scientists in pursuit of larger crop yields (including animals) you immediatly have shown your misunderstanding of what evolutionary theory is.

gratz.
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#103 Sep 07 2010 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
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Thank you, paulsol.
I may have misinterpreted what he meant by "weaker."
#104 Sep 07 2010 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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The One and Only ShadorVIII wrote:
Ponder this: If highly trained scientists are unable to produce new species by artifically inducing and selecting favorable mutations, is it likely that that an unintelligent process would do a better job?

Sure. We're talking a process taking hundreds of thousands or millions of years versus a handful of scientists dorking around for eight decades.

Quote:
In conclusion, Darwin's finches are not becoming "anything new". They are still finches. And the fact that the are interbreeding casts doubt on the methods some evolutionists use to define a "species".

The notion of species being unable to interbreed is a very simplified way of defining a species and I doubt many modern researchers would hold to it. As my favorite example goes, llamas and camels are able to interbreed (via artificial insemination) despite one living in the flat scorched deserts of North Africa and the other living in the wet, often frigid heights of the Andean Mountains of South America. Why? Evolution would teach that both are camelids who diverged millions of years ago from a common ancestor. Creation would teach that... I'm not sure. God thought that camels and llamas should be able to fuck?

Quote:
Many researchers agree that this vast and detailed record shows that all the major groups of animals appeared suddenly and remained virtually unchanged, with many species disappearing as suddenly as they arrived.

This requires a great degree of citation before even being worth discussing. Which researchers? What exactly are they claiming?

Edited, Sep 7th 2010 3:25pm by Jophiel
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#105 Sep 07 2010 at 2:42 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
As my favorite example goes, llamas and camels are able to interbreed (via artificial insemination) despite one living in the flat scorched deserts of North Africa and the other living in the wet, often frigid heights of the Andean Mountains of South America. Why? Evolution would teach that both are camelids who diverged millions of years ago from a common ancestor. Creation would teach that... I'm not sure. God thought that camels and llamas should be able to fuck?


Apparently not even God thought that. Which is odd, as he's like the first artificial inseminator. Poor Mary.
#106 Sep 07 2010 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
That'd be a God I could cast my lot with. Worship, even.
#107 Sep 07 2010 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Haha.. good point. Also, it strengthens my example which makes it my favorite kind of point.

Why would two distinct animals from opposite sides of the globe, separated by oceans and adapted for very different climates be unable to physically interbreed and yet be genetically capable of producing offspring?

Evolution has an answer for this.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#108 Sep 07 2010 at 3:01 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Haha.. good point. Also, it strengthens my example which makes it my favorite kind of point.

Why would two distinct animals from opposite sides of the globe, separated by oceans and adapted for very different climates be unable to physically interbreed and yet be genetically capable of producing offspring?

Evolution has an answer for this.


Apparently egyptian mummies have tested positive for traces of the coca plant.

Was God the first DealerMcDope?

The mystery deepens!
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#109 Sep 07 2010 at 3:52 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Why would two distinct animals from opposite sides of the globe, separated by oceans and adapted for very different climates be unable to physically interbreed and yet be genetically capable of producing offspring?


One could argue that this supports the creationism model though. God created two versions of the same species, each one specialized for the environment they were to live in, and placed them in different parts of the world.

Quote:
Evolution has an answer for this.


Evolution's answer requires that we assume a common ancestor from which both evolved, separated into different environments, and then changed radically in every way *except* the ability to inter-breed. The question a Creationist would ask is: "Why aren't there dozens of other species in other areas of the world who can also interbreed with both camels and llamas?".


I happen to agree with the evolutionary explanation, of course. But that's hardly compelling either way. Doubly so if we don't take the most extreme assumption of "Creationism". Most people who believe in creation believe that God made the species of animals and plants and then allowed the rules of the world to take over from there. As pointed out earlier, they don't deny that species can change over time. There is nothing in most religious people's beliefs to discount the assumption that God made a single type of animal (a llamel, or cama?), and then over time, they each developed different features based on the environment they were in.


Same deal with the horse. While we can track pretty dramatic changes in horses over time, at all points in time, the animal is still identifiably a "horse". Of course, a lot of the problems here come about with labeling of species. If we can't identify a species as a "horse", then no one's going to connect its fossils with those of the horses we know about today, making that comment I just made self-fulfilling.


I just find it to be incredibly counter productive to attempt to use science to attack religion (and vice versa). They largely do not interact much at all. And no amount of showing someone changes in species over time can eliminate the obvious counter argument that "God made them change". In the same way that sudden appearances of species during a period of time results in "God decided to create a bunch more species". There is no data you will ever find that can eliminate a "God made it happen" response, so I'm frankly not sure why anyone bothers to try.
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#110 Sep 07 2010 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Why would two distinct animals from opposite sides of the globe, separated by oceans and adapted for very different climates be unable to physically interbreed and yet be genetically capable of producing offspring?
One could argue that this supports the creationism model though. God created two versions of the same species, each one specialized for the environment they were to live in, and placed them in different parts of the world.
A wizard did it!

Sure you could say that a stupid argument is valid even though it is wholly explained with a scientific, objective, factual argument. That would make you a stupid person, though.
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Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#111 Sep 07 2010 at 4:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
One could argue that this supports the creationism model though. God created two versions of the same species, each one specialized for the environment they were to live in, and placed them in different parts of the world.

Which is the same as saying "Just 'cause" unless you're going to elaborate with a purpose or reason for this. Also, camels and llamas aren't just different species, they are different genera.

Quote:
Evolution's answer requires that we assume a common ancestor from which both evolved, separated into different environments, and then changed radically in every way *except* the ability to inter-breed.

You and I have wildly different concepts of "every way". Both are camelids. Both have plenty of similar traits. However, there's no good reason for them to be genetically compatible on opposite ends of the world without having come from a common ancestor.

Quote:
The question a Creationist would ask is: "Why aren't there dozens of other species in other areas of the world who can also interbreed with both camels and llamas?".

To which one would show the branches of Camelidae that used to roam across this great planet of ours before falling extinct aside from these two distinct groups (Old World camels & New World llamas).

Quote:
Most people who believe in creation believe that God made the species of animals and plants and then allowed the rules of the world to take over from there

You always say this as though you're afraid that more people are going to call religious people nuts than the ones who already do. The fact is that the majority of people who believe in "creationism" believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis in which God creates the world and all the things that exist and dwell upon it in a six day span. I've posted polls about this before but to grab just one example from 2005, a Pew Research poll asking how people think living things came to be in their present state, 26% said "Evolution", 42% said "God created in their present state" and only 18% said "Changed through guidance". The "evolved under the eye of God" idea is a clear minority among Creationists.

Edited, Sep 7th 2010 5:28pm by Jophiel
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#112 Sep 07 2010 at 5:18 PM Rating: Good
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Gbaji:
You're certainly wrong about the horse... and even if you weren't, you'd still have to explain the whale. A lineage of which we have a rather nice documentation - the transition from land mammal to sea mammal. You'd have to explain not only the fossil record, but the genetic record, and the vestigial limbs.
#113 Sep 07 2010 at 5:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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'Cause God wanted it that way! Duh!

Probably to test our faith or something.
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#114 Sep 07 2010 at 5:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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This seems like it'll be a productive discussion.
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#115 Sep 07 2010 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
'Cause God wanted it that way! Duh!

Probably to test our faith or something.
If you look at a well made banana....
#116 Sep 07 2010 at 5:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Already brought up in the comments but I always thought it was pretty asinine to take a domesticated fruit that barely resembles its wild counterpart and say it proves that God loves us because it's so perfect for humans.

I realize that you personally posted the link tongue-in-cheek.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#117 Sep 07 2010 at 7:51 PM Rating: Good
Sir Xsarus wrote:
This seems like it'll be a productive discussion.
You're not allowed to make comments like that anymore. You're supposed to be setting an example for us, and preferably not a bad one like Kao does.
#118 Sep 07 2010 at 8:15 PM Rating: Good
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Most people who believe in creation believe that God made the species of animals and plants and then allowed the rules of the world to take over from there


Now that sounds a whole hell of a lot like Deism to me, and most of the Creationists I know don't take kindly to that kind philosophy. In fact, quite a few denominations of Christianity would call that a blasphemy.

Edit: It could also be called theistic evolution, but that's a principle of Deism, so yeah. Still a blasphemy to a good chunk of peoples.

Edited, Sep 7th 2010 9:50pm by AldousCayo
#119 Sep 07 2010 at 8:38 PM Rating: Good
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AldousCayo wrote:
Quote:
Most people who believe in creation believe that God made the species of animals and plants and then allowed the rules of the world to take over from there


Now that sounds a whole hell of a lot like Deism to me, and most of the Creationists I know don't take kindly to that kind philosophy. In fact, quite a few denominations of Christianity would call that a blasphemy.
It's a sketchy statement, too. God made "the species of animals and plants." Is that modern-ish animals/plants or the precursors of them? If the former, that's already been disproven.
#120 Sep 07 2010 at 8:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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MDenham wrote:
Sir Xsarus wrote:
This seems like it'll be a productive discussion.
You're not allowed to make comments like that anymore. You're supposed to be setting an example for us, and preferably not a bad one like Kao does.
That's an interesting theory certainly.
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#121 Sep 08 2010 at 5:43 AM Rating: Default
AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Tailmon wrote:
Ask them to wait on the porch. Call the cops and when the cops arrive have them issue a criminal tresspass on them. Keep doing it if different ones show sooner or later they will mess up and end up in jail.
If you ask them to wait on the porch, you've invited them onto your property, dumbass.


No it works I did it many times. Dumbass!












P.S. You also have a No tresspassing sign up out front. They never seem to stop Jehova's

Edited, Sep 8th 2010 7:46am by Tailmon
#122 Sep 08 2010 at 6:22 AM Rating: Good
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Tailmon wrote:
AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Tailmon wrote:
Ask them to wait on the porch. Call the cops and when the cops arrive have them issue a criminal tresspass on them. Keep doing it if different ones show sooner or later they will mess up and end up in jail.
If you ask them to wait on the porch, you've invited them onto your property, dumbass.


No it works I did it many times. Dumbass!












P.S. You also have a No tresspassing sign up out front. They never seem to stop Jehova's


A lot of times people will have a "No soliciting" sign up, not a No Trespassing sign. Jehova's Witnesses and political campaigners do not fall under soliciting; the error is that the sign does not mean what most people think it means.

Of course, they still usually get angry :-P During a voter registration effort in 2008, some guy came out with a gun, said, "Can't you ******* read? NO SOLICITING" and threatened to shoot us. That was interesting.
#123 Sep 08 2010 at 7:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
I haven't have a JW caller since... the 90's. I didn't even know they actually still did that as opposed to it just being a holdover joke.


Did you just so happen to be using a lawn mower the last time you saw one? Were you glaring at them that one time with the bunny? Smiley: laugh
#124 Sep 08 2010 at 8:10 AM Rating: Good
LockeColeMA wrote:
A lot of times people will have a "No soliciting" sign up, not a No Trespassing sign. Jehova's Witnesses and political campaigners do not fall under soliciting; the error is that the sign does not mean what most people think it means.

Of course, they still usually get angry :-P During a voter registration effort in 2008, some guy came out with a gun, said, "Can't you @#%^ing read? NO SOLICITING" and threatened to shoot us. That was interesting.


There's a no soliciting sign up at the front of our building. It doesn't stop people, though. We get copy machine people and office supply people who say stuff like, "I was delivering something to someone else in the building and thought I'd drop by and give you my card!"

I hate them. It's difficult to get them to leave, and it's especially annoying when our recptionist is gone to do the banking and I happen to be up front mailing a letter. They don't understand that I have more important things to do than listen to their awesome recitation of their entire catalog.
#125 Sep 08 2010 at 9:08 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
"I was delivering something to someone else in the building and thought I'd drop by and give you my card!"
Solution.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#126 Sep 08 2010 at 9:11 AM Rating: Decent
Quote:
There's a no soliciting sign up at the front of our building. It doesn't stop people, though. We get copy machine people and office supply people who say stuff like, "I was delivering something to someone else in the building and thought I'd drop by and give you my card!"

I hate them. It's difficult to get them to leave, and it's especially annoying when our recptionist is gone to do the banking and I happen to be up front mailing a letter. They don't understand that I have more important things to do than listen to their awesome recitation of their entire catalog.


Invade their personal space and shout your replies.
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