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The Real Radicals?Follow

#27 Aug 31 2010 at 11:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:
Business would absolutely love it if the GOP were to gain enough control to basically shut down the Dems and anything Obama trys to do.

Voters won't. They'll expect results. And by that I mean one-sided grand results, not compromise legislation with the Democrats. These are the same people who are convinced that the Democrats want to kill Grandma and socialize the DVD rental industry and build a mosque on the National Mall. They don't want compromises, they want stunning results that validate their fears and ideology.

Personally, I think the worst thing long term for the GOP will be thin margins in both chambers. Short term, that'd be a pain in the *** for the Democrats due to committees and investigatory powers and the like but the long term will be a GOP that "should" have been able to deliver and instead produced nothing for a couple years going into the next election with empty hands. I wouldn't be thrilled about it happening (if only due to the short term) but I'm happy enough that Obama got a couple big things through this half-term that the GOP mathematically can't overturn in the coming years as there's not enough seats open to give them a veto-busting supermajority even if they magically won every open Senate seat.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#28REDACTED, Posted: Aug 31 2010 at 12:00 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Jophed,
#29 Aug 31 2010 at 12:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:
And while the GOP may not be able to overturn Obama's disastrous policies they can sure defund them into oblivion.

You realize budgets have to pass, right?
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#30REDACTED, Posted: Aug 31 2010 at 12:05 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Jophed,
#31 Aug 31 2010 at 12:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:
Yes...you also realize that if the budget isn't passed in a timely manner the president and democrats will share in the blame don't you?

Won't matter. The narrative will be that Boehner and McConnell (or whoever) failed to pass a bill. That's been the entire foundation to the obstructionist tactic these past two years.

Edited, Aug 31st 2010 1:33pm by Jophiel
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#32 Aug 31 2010 at 3:56 PM Rating: Default
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Demea wrote:
Tailmon wrote:
Somenow people forget that the backbone of out country is the people and the small business. All politicians have forgotten that it seems. The freedons and such that people fought and died for are swept under the carpet by Big Goverment and their greed. I'm sure that most of the posters here are isolated from the picture. But, when you loose your livelyhood and home because of them maybe you can see why the orignal Tea party did what they did.

I thought the original Tea Party "did what they did" because they were angry about their lack of involvement in the governing process?


I'm pretty sure it had something to do with taxes. Yeah. Definitely taxes...

Quote:
Stupid history class, spreading their lies.


If you only learned that they didn't like that they didn't have a seat at the table, then you were cheated by your history class.
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More words please
#33 Aug 31 2010 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
Yes...you also realize that if the budget isn't passed in a timely manner the president and democrats will share in the blame don't you?

Won't matter. The narrative will be that Boehner and McConnell (or whoever) failed to pass a bill. That's been the entire foundation to the obstructionist tactic these past two years.


No. The narrative will be that the GOP is trying to bring us back from the brink of big government excess and the Dems are blocking it. The Dems will be painted as the guys who are actively working to make sure that the government gets a bigger piece out of your wallet and the next wave after that will push more of them out of office.

Of course, it could go either way. PR is fickle that way...
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More words please
#34 Aug 31 2010 at 4:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
No. The narrative will be that the GOP is trying to bring us back from the brink of big government excess and the Dems are blocking it.

Nah. The past couple years (if not more) have shown that the public doesn't give a shit about obstructionism or filibusters or stuff like that. When something fails to happen, it's the fault of the people supposedly "in charge". People don't bother watching the process, they just wait for results.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#35 Aug 31 2010 at 4:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I'm pretty sure it had something to do with taxes.

The bumper stick slogan (for the back of people's horses) had to do with taxes. If you think "taxes" were the actual primary cause, you were cheated in your history classes. Or else stopped taking history courses in high school.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#36 Aug 31 2010 at 4:20 PM Rating: Good
Niall Ferguson, "Empire" wrote:
Everyone has heard of the 'Boston Tea Party' of 16 December 1773, in which 342 boxes of tea worth £10,000 were tipped from the East India tea ship Dartmouth into the murky waters of Boston harbour. But most people assume it was a protest against a hike in the tax on tea. In fact the price of the tea in question was exceptionally low, since the British government had just given the East India Company a rebate of the much higher duty the tea had incurred on entering Britain. In effect, the tea left Britain duty free and had to pay only the much lower American duty on arriving in Boston. Tea had never been cheaper in New England. The 'Party' was organized not by irate consumers but by Boston's wealthy smugglers, who stood to lose out. Contemporaries were well aware of the absurdity of the ostensible reason for the protest. 'Will not posterity be amazed', wrote one sceptic, 'when they are told that the present distraction took its rise from the parliament's taking off a shilling duty on a pound of tea, and imposing three pence, and call it a more unaccountable phrenzy, and more disgraceful to the annals of America, than that of the witchcraft?'

On close inspection, then, the taxes that caused so much fuss were not just trifling; by 1773 they had all but gone. In any case, these disputes about taxation were trivial compared with the basic economic reality that membership of the British Empire was good—very good—for the American colonial economy. The much-maligned Navigation Acts may have given British ships a monopoly over trade with the colonies, but they also guaranteed a market for North American exports of agricultural staples, cattle, pig iron and, indeed, ships. It was the constitutional principle—the right of the British parliament to levy taxes on the American colonists without their consent—that was the true bone of contention.
#37 Aug 31 2010 at 7:41 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
No. The narrative will be that the GOP is trying to bring us back from the brink of big government excess and the Dems are blocking it.

Nah. The past couple years (if not more) have shown that the public doesn't give a shit about obstructionism or filibusters or stuff like that. When something fails to happen, it's the fault of the people supposedly "in charge". People don't bother watching the process, they just wait for results.


Um... Joph? That's because for the last couple years or so, it's been the GOP filibustering against Democrat bills which the majority of the public opposed. They were ok with filibustering because the things being filibustered were things they didn't like anyway. And they blamed those who failed to get things passed, not because they failed, but because they kept on trying to pass bills the public didn't like and forcing the GOP to spend time filibustering them.

The people actually do care if the bills in question are things they like or dislike. And they support the side that supports bills they like and which opposes bills they don't like. I know that recently, due to the huge volume of unpopular bills being proposed by the Dems, this has made it appear as though the public is just generally ok with filibusters, but that's not really the case. It's cute that you think so though!
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#38 Aug 31 2010 at 7:55 PM Rating: Default
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Niall Ferguson, "Empire" wrote:
Everyone has heard of the 'Boston Tea Party' of 16 December 1773, in which 342 boxes of tea worth £10,000 were tipped from the East India tea ship Dartmouth into the murky waters of Boston harbour. But most people assume it was a protest against a hike in the tax on tea. In fact the price of the tea in question was exceptionally low, since the British government had just given the East India Company a rebate of the much higher duty the tea had incurred on entering Britain. In effect, the tea left Britain duty free and had to pay only the much lower American duty on arriving in Boston. Tea had never been cheaper in New England. The 'Party' was organized not by irate consumers but by Boston's wealthy smugglers, who stood to lose out. Contemporaries were well aware of the absurdity of the ostensible reason for the protest. 'Will not posterity be amazed', wrote one sceptic, 'when they are told that the present distraction took its rise from the parliament's taking off a shilling duty on a pound of tea, and imposing three pence, and call it a more unaccountable phrenzy, and more disgraceful to the annals of America, than that of the witchcraft?'

On close inspection, then, the taxes that caused so much fuss were not just trifling; by 1773 they had all but gone. In any case, these disputes about taxation were trivial compared with the basic economic reality that membership of the British Empire was good—very good—for the American colonial economy. The much-maligned Navigation Acts may have given British ships a monopoly over trade with the colonies, but they also guaranteed a market for North American exports of agricultural staples, cattle, pig iron and, indeed, ships. It was the constitutional principle—the right of the British parliament to levy taxes on the American colonists without their consent—that was the true bone of contention.


That's a wonderful account, but it leaves out some major details. The tax the East India Company paid was a tax on importing into England, from the East, not on delivering it anywhere else. This increased the cost of the tea, of course, but the colonists were not themselves forced to pay a tax. It was paid by whomever bought the tea in England and then shipped it to the colonies. And that tax was not rebated for the East India Company out of compassion for colonists who liked tea, but because Dutch tea was being smuggled into England at an insane rate and costing the Company hundreds of thousands of pounds a year in profits.

So what they did was eliminate the tax going into England, but substitute another tax on tea sold in the colonies. It was a smaller tax, but the point is that it was the first direct tax on the colonies themselves. They already had to deal with British laws which mandated monopolies in terms of who could bring goods in and out of the colonies, and now they were going to be taxed on top of that. Worse, this meant that the colonists were effectively subsidizing cheaper tea for people living in England, while they paid full price (in addition to increased costs for shipping).

The sentence "No taxation without representation" was the clarion call. And yes. It was absolutely about taxes. Had the British government not imposed a direct tax, it's likely that the colonies would never have broken away. So yeah. It was about the taxes...
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More words please
#39 Aug 31 2010 at 8:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Um... Joph? That's because for the last couple years or so, it's been the GOP filibustering against Democrat bills which the majority of the public opposed.

No, that's not it. People just had no clue. People weren't following. They did polling and found out that only a quarter of people asked knew how many votes it takes to break a filibuster. Fewer than a third knew that no Republicans had voted in favor of the bill. Kaiser polled and found that half of the population had heard "nothing" or "a little" about the Senate filibuster. Less than a third claimed to have heard "a lot" (and hearing doesn't equal comprehension or interest). This was about a filibuster of one of the most important pieces of legislation in modern history. People just don't tune in to process. We do because we're unusual in that way but most people honestly don't give a shit and only care about the end result (if they care that much). One of the biggest failings of political creatures is not understanding that most people aren't remotely as tuned in or interested.

If you want to make yourself feel good by claiming everyone was just supporting it all this time, have fun with that. You'll be laughably wrong but at least you'll be happy.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#40 Aug 31 2010 at 11:47 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
The sentence "No taxation without representation" was the clarion call. And yes. It was absolutely about taxes. Had the British government not imposed a direct tax, it's likely that the colonies would never have broken away. So yeah. It was about the taxes...


This is funny, because you're obviously ignoring the "without representation" part to drive your point. Unfortunately for you it's sort of the most important part.
#41 Aug 31 2010 at 11:57 PM Rating: Good
Rancid wrote:
Give 'em the boot, the roots the radicals
give 'em the boot, you know I'm a radical
give 'em the boot, the roots the reggae on my stereo
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#42 Sep 01 2010 at 3:32 AM Rating: Good
Omegavegeta wrote:
Rancid wrote:
Give 'em the boot, the roots the radicals
give 'em the boot, you know I'm a radical
give 'em the boot, the roots the reggae on my stereo


With the music execution and the talk of revolution
it bleeds in me and it goes...

*********** love that song. And album. And band.[/sm]
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#43 Sep 01 2010 at 3:50 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
The sentence "No taxation without representation" was the clarion call. And yes. It was absolutely about taxes. Had the British government not imposed a direct tax, it's likely that the colonies would never have broken away. So yeah. It was about the taxes...


Are you incapable of reading bold text?
#44 Sep 01 2010 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Kavekk the Pest wrote:
Quote:
The sentence "No taxation without representation" was the clarion call. And yes. It was absolutely about taxes. Had the British government not imposed a direct tax, it's likely that the colonies would never have broken away. So yeah. It was about the taxes...


Are you incapable of reading bold text?
That's why you can't include other text to confuse him. Had you just said:

Niall Ferguson, "Empire" wrote:
It was the constitutional principle—the right of the British parliament to levy taxes on the American colonists without their consent—that was the true bone of contention.


gbaji would have been forced to ignore it completely or say that it's taken out of context.
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If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#45 Sep 01 2010 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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I always thought the taxation without representation cry had to do with not being involved in the government, but still having to pay for it.

I mean, the "rally cry" declares it there pretty clearly. i would think Demea is correct, but then again, I know almost nothing about American history that wasn't shoved down my throat by some ignorant American in the first place. So maybe we're wrong. Or maybe not.
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#46 Sep 01 2010 at 1:37 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
I always thought the taxation without representation cry had to do with not being involved in the government, but still having to pay for it.

I mean, the "rally cry" declares it there pretty clearly. i would think Demea is correct, but then again, I know almost nothing about American history that wasn't shoved down my throat by some ignorant American in the first place. So maybe we're wrong. Or maybe not.
In gbajiland if the British empire had only cut taxes down to a reasonable level, America would have never revolted, and would just be another Canada. Which begs the question,

Why does gbaji hate America?
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
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