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Who helps the heroesFollow

#27 Aug 10 2010 at 9:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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The government got involved, the government hailed the heroes, the government of the entire past decade has been shaped by this event. All this is is the government saying (reiterating) that if a mass disaster befalls you and you are caught in the wake, sink or swim, buddy. We'll give you 15 minutes of fame if you safe a life, though. 20 If you die saving one. Once that time's up you're just another peasant who has to fight as hard as he can every day to survive. Unless, of course, you're one of the lucky ones. And by lucky I mean rich.
#28 Aug 10 2010 at 9:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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LockeColeMA wrote:
Call me heartless, but why should these aid workers be compensated? If they were with an organization, it would be on that organization to provide coverage (and likely on the workers to buy into the coverage; it's insurance, right?). If they were volunteers, well, they volunteered.

I agree with the part about closing that tax loophole, but I'm really not sure why the workers should be compensated besides patriotism. I may have been missing something (like if the rescue workers were with the government... but then wouldn't they have government insurance?), as I only scanned the article, but it does seem like spending that should not necessarily be on the government to provide.


You are heartless.

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#29 Aug 10 2010 at 9:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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They gave up their health in service to their country and fellow citizens, I don't think it's too much to ask that their country give back to help them.
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#30 Aug 10 2010 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
The conservative trifecta seems awfully quiet. Not one condemnation, guys?

gbaji, Totem, and ... Virus?

FWIW, this bill should have passed, including the tax law change. God forbid those dirty Democrats start trying to find money to pay for their handouts!
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#31 Aug 10 2010 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
Workers comp is insurance though - bought and paid for by the employer. Like most insurance providers they'll often not happily and thoroughly cover expenses without a fight. The EPA claimed that site was safe from air borne hazards - I can see where some Workers Comp insuring company might use that statement to get them off the hook for chronic illnesses that showed up after the event. It seems to me that it would be these types of disputes that the government could help out with.


Workers comp only covers the employee. What about the families? Shouldn't the person saving your life not have to worry about how he's going to pay for his kids hospital bills?

Maybe firefighters should start stealing from burning buildings.
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#32 Aug 10 2010 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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Iamadam the Prohpet wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Workers comp is insurance though - bought and paid for by the employer. Like most insurance providers they'll often not happily and thoroughly cover expenses without a fight. The EPA claimed that site was safe from air borne hazards - I can see where some Workers Comp insuring company might use that statement to get them off the hook for chronic illnesses that showed up after the event. It seems to me that it would be these types of disputes that the government could help out with.


Workers comp only covers the employee. What about the families? Shouldn't the person saving your life not have to worry about how he's going to pay for his kids hospital bills?

Maybe firefighters should start stealing from burning buildings.
Workers comp covers medical treatment for illness and also disability payment for someone if their injury causes them to not be able to work anymore.

So again, technically the family is covered. The individual who's been injured still receives a salary, essentially, to pay for Johnny's braces just like before they were injured. Of course that's not reality.

While it's sad that the failure of this bill was due to politics, I'm not sure that I agree that simply forking out monies to take care of volunteer workers and their families forever, in the event of an accident while responding is setting very good precedent.

I also don't want to see the insurance companies get let off the hook. We all pay them globs of money, in one way or another, to take care of us in just such an event.





Edited, Aug 10th 2010 6:35pm by Elinda
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#33 Aug 10 2010 at 10:38 AM Rating: Good
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Demea wrote:
bsphil wrote:
The conservative trifecta seems awfully quiet. Not one condemnation, guys?

gbaji, Totem, and ... Virus?
I thik Thief and Moe should be thrown in there to form some sort of political pentagram
#34 Aug 10 2010 at 10:48 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
Workers comp covers medical treatment for illness and also disability payment for someone if their injury causes them to not be able to work anymore.

So again, technically the family is covered. The individual who's been injured still receives a salary, essentially, to pay for Johnny's braces just like before they were injured.


Wait... what? You completely missed the point. The salary can't afford to pay for Johnny to have life saving surgery, regardless of whether or not he's physically able to work. Personally, I would want someone I trust with my life to not have to worry about his sick kids.
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#35 Aug 10 2010 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
Tulip,

Quote:
You know what would've prevented this?


Employers verifying it's employees citizenship.


#36 Aug 10 2010 at 11:36 AM Rating: Good
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Iamadam the Prohpet wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Workers comp covers medical treatment for illness and also disability payment for someone if their injury causes them to not be able to work anymore.

So again, technically the family is covered. The individual who's been injured still receives a salary, essentially, to pay for Johnny's braces just like before they were injured.


Wait... what? You completely missed the point. The salary can't afford to pay for Johnny to have life saving surgery, regardless of whether or not he's physically able to work. Personally, I would want someone I trust with my life to not have to worry about his sick kids.
I guess I did miss the point.

So you think that a guy that couldn't afford his kids life-saving surgery prior goes into a burning building, gets hurt or sick from it and now the goverment should pay for the kids life-saving surgery.

Does the kid who's dad didn't go into the burning building not get it's life saving surgery?

Look, all's I'm saying is the whole concept behind workers comp is to provide for an individual and his/her family at roughly the same level in the event of a disabling work related accident.

In the case of the 9/11 rescuers - sure there are confounding issues and honestly, I've not read up on everything that has transpired in caring for these workers. I would hope the government would insure these folks were being taken care of. I'm not sure if simply forking over the money to support them is the answer.
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#37 Aug 10 2010 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
So you think that a guy that couldn't afford his kids life-saving surgery prior goes into a burning building, gets hurt or sick from it and now the goverment should pay for the kids life-saving surgery.


Still missing the point. It doesn't matter if the guy gets sick.

Elinda wrote:
Does the kid who's dad didn't go into the burning building not get it's life saving surgery?


That's called 'Universal Healthcare' and is a separate discussion.

Edited, Aug 10th 2010 12:20pm by Iamadam
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#38 Aug 10 2010 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
New York has some pretty strict laws about who has to have Worker's Compensation insurance. We had a client who was almost fined $12,000 because he didn't have WC insurance, and worked one day in New York. In Tennessee, you don't legally have to have WC insurance if you have five employees or less. Over that, and you have to cover it. NY says you have to cover all of your employees. From what I'm told, that's because there is some law somehwere in NY that says if someone gets hurt on the job in NY state, and the employer doesn't have WC insurance, than the state has to cover it.

Having said that, on their website, one of the groups that doesn't have to be covered by law is:

Quote:
10.New York City police officers, firefighters, and sanitation workers who are covered under provisions of the New York State General Municipal Law. Uniformed police officers and firefighters in other municipalities may also be excluded;


Looking up "New York Municipal Law," I found this:

Quote:
§ 206-b. Exemption of benefits payable under blanket accident
insurance covering volunteer firemen. Not only shall the benefits
payable or allowable under any blanket accident insurance policy or
contract purchased (1) by a fire department pursuant to section four
thousand two hundred thirty-seven of the insurance law, or (2) by a
municipal corporation or fire district pursuant to any general, special
or local law, to insure active volunteer firemen against injury or death
resulting from bodily injuries sustained by such firemen in the
performance of their duties be exempt from execution as provided in
subsection (c) of section three thousand two hundred twelve of the
insurance law, but also any benefits payable or allowable under any such
policy or contract in the event of the death of an insured volunteer
fireman shall be exempt from execution for the purpose of satisfying any
debt or liability of the beneficiary designated in the policy or
contract, or in the event that the insured volunteer fireman is a minor
shall be exempt from execution for the purpose of satisfying any debt or
liability of the person to whom such benefits are payable pursuant to
subsection (b) of section four thousand two hundred thirty-seven of the
insurance law.


But I don't speak lawyer, so I'm not sure if that helps or makes everything more confusing.
#39 Aug 10 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Default
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Lady Bardalicious wrote:
Demea wrote:
bsphil wrote:
The conservative trifecta seems awfully quiet. Not one condemnation, guys?

gbaji, Totem, and ... Virus?
I thik Thief and Moe should be thrown in there to form some sort of political pentagram


Honestly? This is one of those things that appears far more simplistic on the surface than it really is. I also think it's disingenuous for some to suggest that it's magically the GOPs fault for this not passing. While I haven't read through the proposal with a fine toothed comb or anything, if it was such a perfect bill which no one could or would ever criticize then the Dems could pass it without any GOP votes (surely, they could get the one vote they need in the Senate to get past a filibuster if it's such a great bill, right?).

Clearly, it's *not* a good bill. Clearly, there's something about the bill which the Dems don't want to own by themselves. And if you don't want to solely own a "help the heroes of 9/11" bill, then there must be some serious problems in there. It's just not that cut and dried.

Edited, Aug 10th 2010 12:49pm by gbaji
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#40 Aug 10 2010 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
Stock Gbaji answer... "I haven't read it, but it's OBVIOUS!
#41 Aug 10 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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Gbaji wrote:
Honestly? This is one of those things that appears far more simplistic on the surface than it really is. I also think it's disingenuous for some to suggest that it's magically the GOPs fault for this not passing. While I haven't read through the proposal with a fine toothed comb or anything, if it was such a perfect bill which no one could or would ever criticize then the Dems could pass it without any GOP votes (surely, they could get the one vote they need in the Senate to get past a filibuster if it's such a great bill, right?).

Clearly, it's *not* a good bill. Clearly, there's something about the bill which the Dems don't want to own by themselves. And if you don't want to solely own a "help the heroes of 9/11" bill, then there must be some serious problems in there. It's just not that cut and dried.


To put it simply, the majority of politicians are mainly concerned about their wallet. Whether it be "deals" they get from special interest groups, the salary that they get for being a senator / house member, or any other thing that could disrupt their financial situation. Very few, if any, are doing that job to better society and make the world a better place because people are not like that. Not only is it human nature to put ones self interest higher than other peoples but politicians have a harder time pleasing their voter base when certain subjects come up that cause a conflict between the politicians interests and the voters that put him into office.

Not to mention both sides of the fence start acting like children when things start to not go their way. Heck that is evident with some of the behavior of posters on this forum. While it might be possible to have people look at an issue, discuss it, and come up with a solution that makes both sides happy without all the stalling or "mud throwing", I don't believe that our current society will ever get to that point.

Oh concerning the point you made Gbaji, John Stewart said this concerning that bill and how the two sides behaved.
Quote:
The Democrats are pussies and the Republicans are ********.

I think that sums how this bill went rather nicely.
#42 Aug 10 2010 at 2:40 PM Rating: Default
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Technogeek wrote:
Stock Gbaji answer... "I haven't read it, but it's OBVIOUS!


I was mainly speaking of congressman whats-his-name going on a tirade about how evil the GOP is for not wanting to help out sick heroes of 9/11. His appeal to emotion made for wonderful TV, I suppose, but if it really was just about that, and this was such a clean cut issue, the Dems could have and should have passed the bill on their own.

It's not me saying this, it's the Dems own actions saying it loud and clear. They don't feel comfortable being the sole party passing this bill. Why, if it's really such a wonderful thing which the public will embrace and love, is that the case?
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#43 Aug 10 2010 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
gbaji wrote:
It's not me saying this, it's the Dems own actions saying it loud and clear. They don't feel comfortable being the sole party passing this bill. Why, if it's really such a wonderful thing which the public will embrace and love, is that the case?


How could they do that?
#44 Aug 10 2010 at 3:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Clearly, there's something about the bill which the Dems don't want to own by themselves.

It was put to a 2/3rds vote to avoid amendments, not to provide bipartisan cover.

Honestly, the disparity between what you pretend to know and what you actually know never ceases to amaze.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#45 Aug 10 2010 at 3:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Lady Bardalicious wrote:
Demea wrote:
bsphil wrote:
The conservative trifecta seems awfully quiet. Not one condemnation, guys?

gbaji, Totem, and ... Virus?
I thik Thief and Moe should be thrown in there to form some sort of political pentagram
I was thinking Thief, virus, and gbaji, but a conservative political pentagram sounds very intriguing.
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I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#46 Aug 10 2010 at 5:31 PM Rating: Good
bsphil wrote:
Lady Bardalicious wrote:
Demea wrote:
bsphil wrote:
The conservative trifecta seems awfully quiet. Not one condemnation, guys?

gbaji, Totem, and ... Virus?
I thik Thief and Moe should be thrown in there to form some sort of political pentagram
I was thinking Thief, virus, and gbaji, but a conservative political pentagram sounds very intriguing.
If you put a radio inside it, it magically summons Rush Limbaugh through the same mechanism that normally summons demons.
#47 Aug 10 2010 at 6:04 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Clearly, there's something about the bill which the Dems don't want to own by themselves.

It was put to a 2/3rds vote to avoid amendments, not to provide bipartisan cover.


After the Dems couldn't help but put in unrelated taxation code into the bill in an attempt to play on the need to help 9/11 first responders to push their own agenda. Who uses the plight of the sick and dying for their own political profit?

That's right. Democrats do.

If they had simply written a bill that said: "We're going to provide X amount of health care assistance to 9/11 first responders, and we'll pay for it out of Y budget, or even via the creation of a temporary tariff on <something>", the GOP would have voted for it. They decided to play politics with the issue though.

Stop blaming Republicans for not going along with this crap. If the Democrats truly just wanted to help out first responders they could have done so. They decided to use their condition as a lever to do other things. Specifically, they wanted to levy a tax which would effectively kill US corporations, with no limit or time frame involved. It wasn't about helping 9/11 responders. It was about getting that tax passed. Putting that into a bill about helping people we all think should be helped was their way of getting such a bad idea through. It didn't work.


Blame the guys who couldn't write a clean bill.
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#48 Aug 10 2010 at 6:56 PM Rating: Good
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MDenham wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Lady Bardalicious wrote:
Demea wrote:
bsphil wrote:
The conservative trifecta seems awfully quiet. Not one condemnation, guys?

gbaji, Totem, and ... Virus?
I thik Thief and Moe should be thrown in there to form some sort of political pentagram
I was thinking Thief, virus, and gbaji, but a conservative political pentagram sounds very intriguing.
If you put a radio inside it, it magically summons Rush Limbaugh through the same mechanism that normally summons demons.
If by radio you mean sacrificed minority...
#49 Aug 10 2010 at 7:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
After the Dems couldn't help but put in unrelated taxation code into the bill in an attempt to play on the need to help 9/11 first responders to push their own agenda. Who uses the plight of the sick and dying for their own political profit?
Yeah, who cares about paying for programs after all. Saying closing this loophole will allow us to pay for this program sure is unrelated though. Smiley: oyvey

Edited, Aug 10th 2010 8:27pm by Xsarus
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#50 Aug 10 2010 at 8:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
After the Dems couldn't help but put in unrelated taxation code into the bill in an attempt to play on the need to help 9/11 first responders to push their own agenda. Who uses the plight of the sick and dying for their own political profit?
[...]
If they had simply written a bill that said: "We're going to provide X amount of health care assistance to 9/11 first responders, and we'll pay for it out of Y budget, or even via the creation of a temporary tariff on <something>", the GOP would have voted for it.

Huh? It was closing a loophole. Are you just making up your own reality as you go along or something? No one except you has trouble understanding that the GOP wanted to attach an amendment related to illegal immigrants and the Democrats didn't want to have to vote on that amendment and so used a procedure which didn't allow amendments but required a 2/3rds vote to pass. I think everyone (else) understands that the Democrats were at fault for not just voting down the amendment and the GOP was at fault for not just sucking up their amendment and voting to help the 9/11 responders.

The funny thing is that while everyone else is able to look at the situation and see fault with both parties, you need to invent your very own reality which has nothing to do with what actually happened just so you can circle the wagons around the GOP and blame the Democrats, saying that they didn't want to vote for their bill (which actually had well over a 50% majority vote but shy of 66%). Is your need to defend the Republicans really this pathological?
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#51 Aug 10 2010 at 9:28 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
If they had simply written a bill that said: "We're going to provide X amount of health care assistance to 9/11 first responders, and we'll pay for it out of Y budget, or even via the creation of a temporary tariff on <something>", the GOP would have voted for it. They decided to play politics with the issue though.


False.
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