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#1302Almalieque, Posted: Aug 20 2010 at 1:29 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You're simply denying the fact that certain rights were granted in the constitution during a span of time and SSM isn't one of them. Marriage remained the way it was because that's the way they wanted it, not simply because of tradition. If that were the case, people could make the traditional argument now, "Well it's always been between a man and a woman, so why change it?". What is happening now could have easily happened a century ago. It didn't because there wasn't enough or the right people to care enough about it to make that change. That is reality.
#1303 Aug 20 2010 at 1:31 PM Rating: Excellent
Almalieque wrote:
Belkira wrote:

Also: Alma is making an excellent argument for why interracial marriage should still be illegal.


Explain. Given the fact that I haven't made any arguments to support or deny the legality of SSM, I'm very curious.


Well, it wasn't written in to the constitution, so those black people should've stuck to their own kind while those white people stuck to their own kind.

Right...?
#1304 Aug 20 2010 at 1:41 PM Rating: Excellent
I'm sick to death of this posturing an outdated piece of paper (while it served its purpose well, it's largly outlived its orginal point) to comply with every argument ever made.

I don't give a fuck what the Founding Fathers intended. Not letting women vote was wrong, not letting black people be citizens based on skin color was wrong. We corrected it. We can do the same for marriage if necessary.

Which, we don't have to, because we have a magical law already in place to deal with this. The Equal Protection Clause under the 14th amendment. Case ******* closed.
#1305 Aug 20 2010 at 1:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
You're completely missing the point.

No, I'm not.

Quote:
Guess what happened to those relevant things? They all got amended to the Constitution.

Some things have. Others have been determined to fall under the existing Constitution via judicial review. The court accepted right to privacy, for example.

Quote:
You're simply denying the fact that certain rights were granted in the constitution during a span of time and SSM isn't one of them.

I don't think you understand what I was saying at all because you're completely off base here. In fact, we may as well be having two separate conversations. I've stated that the US government plays a role in marriage largely because it stemmed directly from another government which did the same thing. The main take-away from that is that the Esteemed & Holy Founding Fathers never sat around and said "So... let's develop an overarching theory for why we should be involved in marriage and base our future marriage related legislation strictly off that rationale." There is no singular rationale for marriage benefits and there never has been. Do you even remember how the whole jaunt down Tradition & Common Law Lane got started? Because you made a turn somewhere in babbling about the Constitution and neglected to tell the rest of us.
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#1306 Aug 20 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Alma&c wrote:
It's called the freakin Bill of RIGHTS not the "Bill of random laws that only have references to taxation laws". What part of the Bill of RIGHTS don't you understand? If you believe that marriage is a RIGHT and you also believe that the people believed that banning SSM was removing RIGHTS, why don't you think that RIGHT wasn't amended to the Bill of RIGHTS along with the other RIGHTS such as women being able to vote? Oh wait, it's because women voting wasn't the reason why the US rebelled against the British, right? Seriously?!


The Bill of Rights doesn't comprise an exhaustive list. It mostly delineates where our Constitution differed from prevailing English law at the time.

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#1307 Aug 20 2010 at 1:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yelling "It's called the BILL OF RIGHTS!!! RIGHTS!!" reminds me of the yahoos who argue against evolution by quoting the definition of "theory" from their pocket dictionary.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#1308 Aug 20 2010 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:

It's called the freakin Bill of RIGHTS not the "Bill of random laws that only have references to taxation laws". What part of the Bill of RIGHTS don't you understand? If you believe that marriage is a RIGHT and you also believe that the people believed that banning SSM was removing RIGHTS, why don't you think that RIGHT wasn't amended to the Bill of RIGHTS along with the other RIGHTS such as women being able to vote? Oh wait, it's because women voting wasn't the reason why the US rebelled against the British, right? Seriously?!


Oooo shinies.

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#1309 Aug 20 2010 at 1:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Crazy shinies.

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#1310 Aug 20 2010 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Because you made a turn somewhere in babbling about the Constitution and neglected to tell the rest of us.
This is pretty much Alma's SOP
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#1311 Aug 20 2010 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
Explain. Given the fact that I haven't made any arguments to support or deny the legality of SSM, I'm very curious.
Because as long as you don't take a stance you can't be wrong and can happily tell everyone how wrong they are.
#1312 Aug 20 2010 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
Posting on page 27.

*popcorn*
#1313 Aug 20 2010 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
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I have my home computer set to display 100 posts rather then 50, so these page number claims always amuse me Smiley: grin
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#1314 Aug 20 2010 at 2:47 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
I have my home computer set to display 100 posts rather then 50, so these page number claims always amuse me.


Well aren't you a little nonconformist.
#1315 Aug 20 2010 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
Quote:
I have my home computer set to display 100 posts rather then 50, so these page number claims always amuse me.


Well aren't you a little nonconformist.
100 post pages ftw.
#1316 Aug 20 2010 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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#1317Almalieque, Posted: Aug 20 2010 at 3:39 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) First, I gave a specific example of a loving couple getting married mostly for the benefits. That is an incentive. I didn't say it was a grand plan from the government to get people to marry each other, since you don't accept common sense explanations.
#1318 Aug 20 2010 at 4:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
I didn't say it was a grand plan from the government to get people to marry each other, since you don't accept common sense explanations.


It's.... juuuuuuusssttt.... OBVIOUS!!!!!!!

Quote:
It doesn't matter if those benefits came after, people still get married because of them, which is my point.

Which people? Hypothetical people? Sure. Hypothetical people also become ninjas and fight Eskimos.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#1319 Aug 20 2010 at 4:42 PM Rating: Good
Almalieque wrote:
Stuff


I'm extracting myself from this ********* Again.

I owe myself and apology for even attempting to explain things to you.

Thankfully, I forgive myself.
#1320 Aug 20 2010 at 4:43 PM Rating: Good
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Thankfully, I forgive myself.


Shame I can't bring myself to do the same.
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#1321Almalieque, Posted: Aug 20 2010 at 4:54 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You mean that same stance that I stated at least 4 times now and referred to at least twice?
#1322 Aug 20 2010 at 4:58 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:


Almalieque, The Poster that knows all wrote:
It doesn't matter if those benefits came after, people still get married because of them, which is my point.

Which people? Hypothetical people? Sure. Hypothetical people also become ninjas and fight Eskimos.


More like the couples who have been living like husband and wife but haven't actually decided to get married. It's more advantageous for them to get married if they are already in that type of committed relationship already. Yes, those types of couples do exists..
#1323 Aug 20 2010 at 5:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
I yelled shenanigans, because the US rebelled against Great Britain and developed their own constitution.

Yeah, and that was the point where you started getting things wrong. Or at least having your own creative theories about how things went down.

Ok, so actually I didn't miss anything else before.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#1324 Aug 20 2010 at 5:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
More like the couples who have been living like husband and wife but haven't actually decided to get married.

If they're already cohabiting well prior to marriage then the supposed "incentives" of marriage didn't work all that well, did they? One might almost say that deciding to get those benefits (assuming that's why they were getting married) was a consequence of them doing what they had already been doing -- living together as a married couple.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#1325Almalieque, Posted: Aug 20 2010 at 6:30 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) One might then question of the point to giving people benefits for doing something that people commonly do without any benefit to the government or society.
#1326gbaji, Posted: Aug 20 2010 at 6:57 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Except that the government didn't start providing benefits in return for couples holding a marriage license until the mid 20th century. The idea that we inherited this from jolly ol' England is absurd. And the argument that since marriage was recognized by the US when it first formed that this magically means that new things attached to marriage nearly 200 years later were thus intended to be treated the same way is also absurd.
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