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#502 Aug 11 2010 at 8:55 AM Rating: Excellent

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Almalieque wrote:

You're right, I was wrong. Gasp, see how simple that is! Let me rephrase that to say "You can't say discrimination is wrong and then have an argument that supports it".

Luckily, that's not the argument. The argument, and the one supported by the courts for the past handful of decades, is "Discrimination in marriage is generally wrong, excepting for occasions in the obvious public interest". The question is whether or not there's significant enough harm in allowing homosexual marriage to justify the discrimination.

If someone wants to argue whether there's significant enough harm to justify not being allowed to marry their sister, infant child, cat or kitchen sink, that's a separate argument and has no place in this one except to confuse the issue.

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Belkira wrote:

Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.

#503 Aug 11 2010 at 8:56 AM Rating: Good

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Almalieque wrote:

Belkira wrote:

I'm not entirely sure what encompasses the "state benefits." Does that include inheritence rights, not being forced to testify against one another, and visiting one another in the hospital, or are those different rights all together?

That's a really good question, what about spouse's debt? Would you inherent that as well? What about alimony? Just curious

Well, Alimony isn't a state benefit, it's something that's settled at a divorce, so I don't think that would be an issue.

Child support, however, is something that the state takes on after the dissolution of a marriage.

ETA: Actually, maybe Alimony is something that the state takes on after a divorce... I don't know enough about it to know.

Edited, Aug 11th 2010 9:56am by Belkira

#504 Almalieque, Posted: Aug 11 2010 at 9:00 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I told you that I'm only 12!!!

#505 Aug 11 2010 at 9:01 AM Rating: Excellent

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Child support isn't dependent upon a marriage though. You just need two parents and a child.

I'd define "state benefits" as those things administered or enforced by the government/courts. Which is pretty much everything from the Fifth Amendment on down to inheriting pension benefits from private unions. Without government intervention, none of those things would be guaranteed to married couples.

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Belkira wrote:

Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.

#506 Almalieque, Posted: Aug 11 2010 at 9:12 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) How can discrimination in marriage be "generally wrong" when the basis of marriage is discrimination? It was built on discrimination from the beginning and was held and supported through the public interest. Marriage is one of the most discriminative processes upheld in modern society. There are so many rules and restrictions that apply to marriage.

#507 Almalieque, Posted: Aug 11 2010 at 9:15 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Sorry, typo..

#508 Aug 11 2010 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good

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Jophiel wrote:

I'd define "state benefits" as those things administered or enforced by the government/courts. Which is pretty much everything from the Fifth Amendment on down to inheriting pension benefits from private unions. Without government intervention, none of those things would be guaranteed to married couples.

This is what bothers me with the "government should get out of the business of marriage period" argument, then.

#509 Aug 11 2010 at 9:28 AM Rating: Excellent

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Almalieque wrote:

How can discrimination in marriage be "generally wrong" when the basis of marriage is discrimination?

*Shrug* Given that all this is irrelevant to the court argument, I don't care enough to debate it.

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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.

#510 Aug 11 2010 at 9:48 AM Rating: Excellent

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why can't an 8 year old buy a gun?

IT'S SO DISCRIMINATORY

#511 Aug 11 2010 at 9:49 AM Rating: Excellent

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Jophiel wrote:

Almalieque wrote:

How can discrimination in marriage be "generally wrong" when the basis of marriage is discrimination?

*Shrug* Given that all this is irrelevant to the court argument, I don't care enough to debate it.

Welcome to my world.

As far as the administration of benefits, I generally take that to mean government-sponsored monetary benefits such as tax breaks. I base that interpretation on the context in which "marriage benefits" was first introduced, which was an assertion that homosexual couples only want to get married for the monetary benefits. This was a while ago, but I'm pretty sure I can dig it up if you're interested.

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#512 Aug 11 2010 at 9:52 AM Rating: Decent

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Jophed,

Quote:

I'd define "state benefits" as those things administered or enforced by the government/courts. Which is pretty much everything from the Fifth Amendment on down to inheriting pension benefits from private unions. Without government intervention, none of those things would be guaranteed to married couples.

Are they guaranteed to single individuals?

#513 Aug 11 2010 at 10:08 AM Rating: Excellent

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knoxxsouthy wrote:

Are they guaranteed to single individuals?

Are you guaranteed to inherit your spouse's pension if you're not married? Probably not.

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Belkira wrote:

Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.

#514 Aug 11 2010 at 10:13 AM Rating: Excellent

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Jophiel wrote:

knoxxsouthy wrote:

Are they guaranteed to single individuals?

Are you guaranteed to inherit your spouse's pension if you're not married? Probably not.

On the other hand you can't be compelled to testify against your nonexistent spouse, so there's that.

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#515 Aug 11 2010 at 10:14 AM Rating: Excellent

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Samira wrote:

Jophiel wrote:

knoxxsouthy wrote:

Are they guaranteed to single individuals?

Are you guaranteed to inherit your spouse's pension if you're not married? Probably not.

On the other hand you can't be compelled to testify against your nonexistent spouse, so there's that.

Yea, but what if he wants to visit that hot guy in the hospital?

#516 Almalieque, Posted: Aug 11 2010 at 10:31 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Well if the original argument is something stupid like "Why can't an illegal immigrant buy a gun? It's so Discriminatory!!!, then your argument is valid.

#517 Aug 11 2010 at 10:38 AM Rating: Excellent

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Almalieque wrote:

Bard wrote:

why can't an 8 year old buy a gun?

IT'S SO DISCRIMINATORY

Well if the original argument is something stupid like "Why can't an illegal immigrant buy a gun? It's so Discriminatory!!!, then your argument is valid.

Laws are put in place to protect citizens.

There are laws against minors buying guns because their brains aren't fully developed and they are stupid.

Similarly, there are laws against minors signing marriage contracts. They don't fully comprehend what is going on.

Stop trying to hide behind a black and white argument that if we somehow don't give marriage to children and breakfast cereals, that we are discriminating.

#518 Almalieque, Posted: Aug 11 2010 at 10:48 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Stop trying to hide behind the fact that you are unable to create a legitimate argument for what you are fighting for that supports your belief instead of making a blanket one for all argument and saying "you know what I mean".

#519 Aug 11 2010 at 11:50 AM Rating: Decent

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Lady B,

Quote:

Laws are put in place to protect citizens.

And laws are also put in place to force their views on others.

#520 Aug 11 2010 at 11:55 AM Rating: Excellent

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knoxxsouthy wrote:

Lady B,

Quote:

Laws are put in place to protect citizens.

And laws are also put in place to force their views on others.

nobody is forcing you to have buttsecks

not that you'd mind, I'm sure.

#521 Almalieque, Posted: Aug 11 2010 at 12:03 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) If I read his message correctly, he said views, not activities.... I would think for a person who is AGAINST the ban of same sex marriage, you would understand that and know the difference.

#522 Aug 11 2010 at 12:06 PM Rating: Excellent

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I'm just meeting ludicrous statements with equally ludicrous ones.

You don't actually expect me to take varus seriously?

#523 Aug 11 2010 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good

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Lady Bardalicious wrote:

I'm just meeting ludicrous statements with equally ludicrous ones.

You don't actually expect me to take varus seriously?

To be fair, you seem to be taking Alma seriously.

#524 Aug 11 2010 at 12:16 PM Rating: Excellent

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LockeColeMA wrote:

Lady Bardalicious wrote:

I'm just meeting ludicrous statements with equally ludicrous ones.

You don't actually expect me to take varus seriously?

To be fair, you seem to be taking Alma seriously.

he does love me enough to put me in his sig.

#525 Aug 11 2010 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good

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Almalieque wrote:

If I read his message correctly, he said views, not activities.... I would think for a person who is AGAINST the ban of same sex marriage, you would understand that and know the difference.

No one is forcing him to change his views.

#526 Almalieque, Posted: Aug 11 2010 at 12:16 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Well that only works when the original statement is ludicrous..

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