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#327 Aug 05 2010 at 10:16 PM Rating: Good
Almalieque wrote:
My point addresses neither. Simply, do you believe that a child receive the same or more benefits from two good same sex parents (regardless of sexuality) or from one good single parent (regardless of sexuality) as opposed to two good opposite sex parents (regardless of sexuality)?
Your question appears to be conflating a pair of same-sex parents with a single parent, which renders it moderately invalid.

It should be two questions:
* Do you believe that a child receives the same or more benefits from having two parents available than one?
* ...from having parents of both genders available than of only one gender?
#328 Aug 05 2010 at 10:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:

My point addresses neither. Simply, do you believe that a child receive the same or more benefits from two good same sex parents (regardless of sexuality) or from one good single parent (regardless of sexuality) as opposed to two good opposite sex parents (regardless of sexuality)?

You can believe what you want, but the answer is no. Men and women are different and you can't substitute one for the other when it comes to raising a child. That doesn't mean that the child will grow up with deficiencies in other combinations, but you also can't argue that it is an advantage either in an ideal situation, because it's not.


Wow if only there was some way to let the child hang out with the other gender that they apparently need to be raised as a healthy adult. Say big brother/big sister, a neighbor, relatives, the surrounding community. Seems that gay couples are going to segregate themselves into all gay communities so the child will never see any adult of the opposite sex from which is raising them.

Absolutely astonishing that you can't realize how stupid you sound.
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#329Almalieque, Posted: Aug 05 2010 at 10:17 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Maybe you don't realize that sham marriages are punishable under the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
#330 Aug 05 2010 at 10:19 PM Rating: Good
Almalieque wrote:
Dayadem wrote:
My friends sister got married so that she could have a man to raise her child, and live off his military pension. They don't love each other at all...she could barely be brought to care when he went on his last tour. I say barely because she of course cares that if he dies she gets everything, plus the spousal benefits.

Yes lets protect the sanctity of loveless marriages such as that.


Maybe you don't realize that sham marriages are punishable under the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
Whether or not Dyadem realizes it is irrelevant.

Also, Dyadem is Canadian, so the code used by the US military is also likely irrelevant.
#331 Aug 05 2010 at 10:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
Dayadem wrote:
My friends sister got married so that she could have a man to raise her child, and live off his military pension. They don't love each other at all...she could barely be brought to care when he went on his last tour. I say barely because she of course cares that if he dies she gets everything, plus the spousal benefits.

Yes lets protect the sanctity of loveless marriages such as that.


Maybe you don't realize that sham marriages are punishable under the Uniform Code of Military Justice.



It's not my marriage. They've also been married for over 3 years, they don't sleep around or date other people. In every legal aspect they are married. They just don't love each other. I also beleive he was the one to say to her..'if we get married I can take care of you and your child"... something I'm sure quite a few men have said to women before. Military or not, I doubt they are breaking any law.
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#332 Aug 05 2010 at 10:21 PM Rating: Good
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MDenham wrote:

Also, Dyadem is Canadian, so the code used by the US military is also likely irrelevant.


Take that back!! I live a full 200 miles from the Canadian border.
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#333 Aug 05 2010 at 10:22 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
BSphil wrote:
I'd say that good couples are better at raising children than good single parents, on average. I don't see how that relates to my statement though.


I didn't say good couples, but good homosexual couples are better than good heterosexual couples. It relates, because you were implying a counter to gbaji "reproduction argument", saying that the ability to reproduce isn't as important as the ability to raise a child. So I countered to say if you think good homosexuals raising children is just as effective as good heterosexuals raising children.

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Lolwiki, but yea, pretty much. You are more than free to read all of the sources at the bottom.


Nice try, but no. Those studies are taking in consideration of all heterosexual parenting to include the good, the bad and the ugly (the vast majority of all parenting) versus the few homosexual parenting. Also, that article was focused more on combating the belief that if a child is raised by homosexual parents, the child will not be emotionally and or psychological stable. This is combating the nonsensical belief that any child raised by a heterosexual is inherently better than a homosexual because no heterosexual parents are bad and no homosexual parents are good.

My point addresses neither. Simply, do you believe that a child receive the same or more benefits from two good same sex parents (regardless of sexuality) or from one good single parent (regardless of sexuality) as opposed to two good opposite sex parents (regardless of sexuality)?

You can believe what you want, but the answer is no. Men and women are different and you can't substitute one for the other when it comes to raising a child. That doesn't mean that the child will grow up with deficiencies in other combinations, but you also can't argue that it is an advantage either in an ideal situation, because it's not.


So...in short, Different people are Different, but it doesn't really matter cause the child will grow up pretty much the same with equivalent heterosexual parents. What was the point of this post? Or do you think that when gays adopt they'll be taking children out of the arms of heterosexuals?
#334 Aug 05 2010 at 10:27 PM Rating: Good
Dyadem of Future Fabulous! wrote:
MDenham wrote:

Also, Dyadem is Canadian, so the code used by the US military is also likely irrelevant.


Take that back!! I live a full 200 miles from the Canadian border.
Sorry, I confuse you with Ikkian on a regular basis.
#335Almalieque, Posted: Aug 05 2010 at 10:28 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) lol, wait, I sound stupid? Who said anything about the inability to have other role models? The same thing applies to single parents. I know children raised by a single mother who's boyfriends play the father role. Is that the same thing as having your father (assuming he is good) around. NO. There is no obligation in that relationship what so ever.
#336 Aug 05 2010 at 10:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
There's absolutely no way you can prove otherwise.


You're right, all the thousands of children who are raised perfectly fine with one parent in their house, and having outside role models of the opposite gender provide no substantial proof.

I'll quit now because being raised by a trucker has made my ego fragile.
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"I want to be a unicorn!"
"Awww, why's that?"........
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#337 Aug 05 2010 at 10:33 PM Rating: Good
Almalieque wrote:
Mdenham wrote:
Your question appears to be conflating a pair of same-sex parents with a single parent, which renders it moderately invalid.

It should be two questions:
* Do you believe that a child receives the same or more benefits from having two parents available than one?
* ...from having parents of both genders available than of only one gender?


You're half correct. They should be two different questions, but not the ones you listed.

*Do you believe good same sex parents (regardless of sexuality) provide the same or more benefits as a good single parent (regardless of sexuality)

*Do you believe good same sex parents (regardless of sexuality) provide the same or more benefits as good opposite sex parents (regardless of sexuality)?


Slightly different.
Not different at all in terms of the information gathered, actually.

As a single entity, the request would be "Rank the three in order from best to worst." It takes two questions - yours or mine - to do so.

And the difference between your first question and my first question is solely that you're trying to intentionally load the language to get different answers.

(For what it's worth, my answer to all four questions would be "yes". Two parents, regardless of gender, makes it possible to have one stay-at-home parent, which is not feasible in general with a single parent, and thereby makes familial attachments more stable. "Standard" couples, compared to same-sex couples, allows for observation of traditional gender roles. If you asked me "what is the ideal family" instead, my answer would be "two men and two women", as this allows a stay-at-home parent of each gender, as well as two working adults to support the entire family.)
#338 Aug 05 2010 at 10:33 PM Rating: Default
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Siesen wrote:
So...in short, Different people are Different, but it doesn't really matter cause the child will grow up pretty much the same with equivalent heterosexual parents. What was the point of this post? Or do you think that when gays adopt they'll be taking children out of the arms of heterosexuals?


That there is a difference in between saying "children under one parenting combination will grow up a certain way" vs "there are benefits for a child to be under certain parenting combinations". While you can't guarantee that a child will grow up a certain way because of their parenting combination, you can't also deny the inherent benefits available to certain parenting combinations.
#339 Aug 05 2010 at 10:34 PM Rating: Good
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A. I can, and I will, just because I can.
B. I'm not sure what this has to do with any of this.
#340 Aug 05 2010 at 10:39 PM Rating: Default
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Dyadem wrote:

You're right, all the thousands of children who are raised perfectly fine with one parent in their house, and having outside role models of the opposite gender provide no substantial proof.

I'll quit now because being raised by a trucker has made my ego fragile.


You show where I denied the possibility of the aforementioned occurring? That "fact" that you stated, doesn't contradict anything. It just proves that it can be done. There is a tremendous difference between having two positive parents in the house versus one. You're simply in denial if you argue against that. This doesn't mean that your children will be drug dealing crack whores if you only have one parent. How can you not understand this?

Mdenham wrote:
Not different at all in terms of the information gathered, actually.

As a single entity, the request would be "Rank the three in order from best to worst." It takes two questions - yours or mine - to do so.

And the difference between your first question and my first question is solely that you're trying to intentionally load the language to get different answers.

(For what it's worth, my answer to all four questions would be "yes". Two parents, regardless of gender, makes it possible to have one stay-at-home parent, which is not feasible in general with a single parent, and thereby makes familial attachments more stable. "Standard" couples, compared to same-sex couples, allows for observation of traditional gender roles. If you asked me "what is the ideal family" instead, my answer would be "two men and two women", as this allows a stay-at-home parent of each gender, as well as two working adults to support the entire family.)


Read above
#341 Aug 05 2010 at 10:43 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
You show where I denied the possibility of the aforementioned occurring?


Quote:
You can believe what you want, but the answer is no. Men and women are different and you can't substitute one for the other when it comes to raising a child. That doesn't mean that the child will grow up with deficiencies in other combinations, but you also can't argue that it is an advantage either in an ideal situation, because it's not.


I never said there were advantages, or disadvantages. In fact I will fully agree that it's important to have a role model of each gender in a childs developmental years. HOWEVER, that rolemodel does not have to be a parent, or anyone who lives in the house. So long as the child has the ability to be around said rolemodel.

Edited, Aug 5th 2010 11:45pm by Dyadem
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#342 Aug 05 2010 at 10:53 PM Rating: Default
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Dyadem wrote:
I never said there were advantages, or disadvantages. In fact I will fully agree that it's important to have a role model of each gender in a childs developmental years. HOWEVER, that rolemodel does not have to be a parent, or anyone who lives in the house. So long as the child has the ability to be around said rolemodel.


Did you actually read what I said...

Almalieque wrote:
You can believe what you want, but the answer is no. Men and women are different and you can't substitute one for the other when it comes to raising a child. That doesn't mean that the child will grow up with deficiencies in other combinations, but you also can't argue that it is an advantage either in an ideal situation, because it's not.



The yellow portion states that the children can be raised up just fine. My point is, you can't pretend that is the idea situation because it isn't and there is no proof to show otherwise.

I agreed that the role model doesn't have to be a parent or live at home, but you can't deny the benefits of the role model being a parent that lives at home. That is my point, there are advantages in different scenarios. You can't possibly believe that all scenarios are the same. They all have the potential of successfully raising a child, but the road there is different.

edit: deleted unrelated section

Edited, Aug 6th 2010 6:55am by Almalieque

Edited, Aug 6th 2010 6:55am by Almalieque
#343 Aug 05 2010 at 11:03 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:


I agreed that the role model doesn't have to be a parent or live at home, but you can't deny the benefits of the role model being a parent that lives at home. That is my point, there are advantages in different scenarios. You can't possibly believe that all scenarios are the same. They all have the potential of successfully raising a child, but the road there is different.


Ok I reread it, so youre saying that it may have an effect, but at the same time you are saying there is no proof of an effect. Since each situation is different we should judge them individually. So just admit that you have the possibility of being wrong, just as I do. A single parent, can raise a well adjusted child. A M/F couple has the same the chance, and so would a same sex couple.

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Things I sometimes play...

"What do you want to be when you grow up?"
"I want to be a unicorn!"
"Awww, why's that?"........
"So I can stab people with my face."
#344 Aug 05 2010 at 11:03 PM Rating: Good
Almalieque wrote:
Mdenham wrote:
Not different at all in terms of the information gathered, actually.

As a single entity, the request would be "Rank the three in order from best to worst." It takes two questions - yours or mine - to do so.

And the difference between your first question and my first question is solely that you're trying to intentionally load the language to get different answers.

(For what it's worth, my answer to all four questions would be "yes". Two parents, regardless of gender, makes it possible to have one stay-at-home parent, which is not feasible in general with a single parent, and thereby makes familial attachments more stable. "Standard" couples, compared to same-sex couples, allows for observation of traditional gender roles. If you asked me "what is the ideal family" instead, my answer would be "two men and two women", as this allows a stay-at-home parent of each gender, as well as two working adults to support the entire family.)


Read above
There was nothing you stated above that had any relevance to what I was saying, unless you're trying to claim that two same-sex parents are worse for the child than a single parent.
#345 Aug 05 2010 at 11:47 PM Rating: Good
In some other thread today...

gbaji wrote:
Oh God! Not this again...


#346 Aug 06 2010 at 12:04 AM Rating: Good
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Sigh. I'm only talking about the marriage benefits dork! GAAAAAHHHHH!!!!


And I'm saying that the official state sponsored benefits of marriage are probably the least important aspect of the word marriage. You're deliberately picking the most asinine definition of the word, ignoring the host of emotional, social, religious, and psychological connotations involved in it.

It's dry, it's academic, and it robs both heterosexuals and homosexuals of their very humanity.
#347 Aug 06 2010 at 4:42 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Because no one has ever accidentally artificially inseminated themselves. Also, the "couple" didn't produce the child. One person did. The other person was a bystander to the process.
You should go back to the mirror and practice this one, because that was a **** poor job of selling a ridiculous idea.

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#348 Aug 06 2010 at 5:03 AM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
Quote:
Sigh. I'm only talking about the marriage benefits dork! GAAAAAHHHHH!!!!


And I'm saying that the official state sponsored benefits of marriage are probably the least important aspect of the word marriage. You're deliberately picking the most asinine definition of the word, ignoring the host of emotional, social, religious, and psychological connotations involved in it.

It's dry, it's academic, and it robs both heterosexuals and homosexuals of their very humanity.
At least it's a good thing that Gbaji's only issue with gay marriage is a monetary one because that shouldn't be so hard to let go.
#349 Aug 06 2010 at 5:11 AM Rating: Good
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I haven't read all this. I'm just posting to ask someone to use the Smiley: banghead smiley.
#350 Aug 06 2010 at 5:15 AM Rating: Good
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I haven't read all this. I'm just posting to ask someone to use the Smiley: banghead smiley.
Like that?
#351 Aug 06 2010 at 5:53 AM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Almalieque wrote:
BSphil wrote:
I'd say that good couples are better at raising children than good single parents, on average. I don't see how that relates to my statement though.


I didn't say good couples, but good homosexual couples are better than good heterosexual couples. It relates, because you were implying a counter to gbaji "reproduction argument", saying that the ability to reproduce isn't as important as the ability to raise a child. So I countered to say if you think good homosexuals raising children is just as effective as good heterosexuals raising children.
I do. That's why I said "good couples" as shorthand for "good homosexual or heterosexual couples". Two loving parents will always beat out one. The ability to reproduce isn't important at all when it comes to your ability to raise a child.



Edited, Aug 6th 2010 6:54am by bsphil
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