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Lindsey Graham: Hatin' The Constitution. 14th StyleFollow

#102 Aug 02 2010 at 9:22 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
They win by arguing that separating the mother and the child represents a hardship on the child here in the US

Nope. "In the past, the courts have not placed much weight on the idea of separation; therefore, the first argument of hardship due to separation is not generally argued at great length to the court. It is unlikely that a parent will choose to separate from a child, and the court leaves the choice between the hardship of separation and the hardship of return to the home country to the parent."

Hardship due to separation is not often used because the courts aren't swayed by it. If it's a "hardship" for the child to not be with you, you can take the child with. In fact, this is what usually happens. Obviously there are hardship cases that get decided in favor of the parents receiving a waiver or visa but they are not (from what I can tell) anything but a minority of cases even in cases involving a citizen child.

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Joph. Even if we assumed that 100% of all parents of every single anchor baby was deported and that the existence of their US citizen child would provide them no unfair benefit nor place any greater strain on the immigration system (absurd assumptions, but lets accept them for the sake of argument), there would still be the point of the massive amount of welfare and food stamps being paid out to provide for those children, which would not have to be paid if we deported the children with those parents.

The children often are deported with their parents. That was cited earlier when it says that "The policy behind allowing citizen children to be constructively deported is to prevent the creation of a loophole in U.S. immigration law". It is legal because the child can return later and assert their citizenship at that time.

If that was your best argument for a Constitutional amendment, you've wasted everyone's time.

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Clearly, this is a problem

No.


Edited, Aug 2nd 2010 10:28pm by Jophiel
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#103 Aug 03 2010 at 5:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
They win by arguing that separating the mother and the child represents a hardship on the child here in the US

Nope. "In the past, the courts have not placed much weight on the idea of separation; therefore, the first argument of hardship due to separation is not generally argued at great length to the court. It is unlikely that a parent will choose to separate from a child, and the court leaves the choice between the hardship of separation and the hardship of return to the home country to the parent."


Where the hell are you quoting this from Joph? I posted a link to a paper written by a guy who actually has a track record trying deportation hearings. As far as I can tell, you've posted an opinion piece written by someone theorizing about how the law should work. Care to provide a bit more support there? Anyone can say anything on the interwebs Joph. And we all know what opinions are like.

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Hardship due to separation is not often used because the courts aren't swayed by it.


Which directly contradicts the Hake Hardship scale, which is based on actual deportation hearings, and not guesswork about how the law should work, in theory, assuming the person writing it knows what the hell they are talking about.

Sorry. I'll take the opinion of the guy who's position is based on past court rulings and not just conjecture from some unnamed source.

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If it's a "hardship" for the child to not be with you, you can take the child with. In fact, this is what usually happens.


You have no clue as to what "usually happens".

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Obviously there are hardship cases that get decided in favor of the parents receiving a waiver or visa but they are not (from what I can tell) anything but a minority of cases even in cases involving a citizen child.


You have no clue if this is true. None at all. Unless you are refuting the statement I quoted that deportation hearing statistics are not made available even via FOIA requests, and can provide some?


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The children often are deported with their parents.


Cite? Or are you just talking out of your hat again?

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That was cited earlier when it says that "The policy behind allowing citizen children to be constructively deported is to prevent the creation of a loophole in U.S. immigration law". It is legal because the child can return later and assert their citizenship at that time.


Yes. But clearly either a whole lot of illegal immigrant parents are not being deported, or they are opting to have their child stay in the US when they are deported. Cause 24% of the LA county welfare and food stamp budget is paying for those children. They are not being deported. Whether their parents are or not is really only half the issue, isn't it?

That's kinda the nail in the coffin of your argument Joph. We can dance around whether the child may be deported, or whether the parents may be deported, and how much of an affect the child's hardship aspects may play into this, but at the end of the day, a massive number of children born to illegal immigrants are being paid for out of our welfare budget. Way out of proportion to their relative population.

Something is clearly wrong here.
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#104 Aug 03 2010 at 6:20 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Where the hell are you quoting this from Joph?

I said where I'm quoting it from. I'm quoting it from various legal journals which I know doesn't help your "Anyone can say anything on the interwebs!" defense but there ya go. The section I quoted form there came from the William Mitchell Law Review and was written by Evon M. Spangler, managing partner for Spangler and de Stefano and MiaLisa McFarland, Associate attorney for the same firm. I can't really help the fact that you don't have access to the same sources but there's not much I can do about that that unless you're willing to pony up for a LexisNexis subscription. But now you happily know who wrote it so you don't have to scare yourself thinking of anonymous interwebs sources.
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But clearly either a whole lot of illegal immigrant parents are not being deported, or they are opting to have their child stay in the US when they are deported. Cause 24% of the LA county welfare and food stamp budget is paying for those children. They are not being deported.

Are they even going to a hearing? Because if they're not then you don't really have a point with this since the children obviously aren't preventing a deportation. The answer here, if it's a problem, is to step up immigration enforcement. Not to just say "We need to amend the Constitution 'cause that'll fix this!" without even any evidence that it'll fix anything.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#105 Aug 04 2010 at 11:27 PM Rating: Good
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"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
#106 Aug 05 2010 at 12:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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[********************** your tired, your poor,

**** your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

***** the wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Keep these, the homeless, tempest-tost at home,

SRSLY **** 'em!" [/quote]
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#107 Aug 05 2010 at 6:17 AM Rating: Good
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
"@#%^ your tired, your poor,

@#%^ your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

***** the wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Keep these, the homeless, tempest-tost at home,

SRSLY @#%^ 'em!"
Amen.
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#108 Aug 05 2010 at 7:00 AM Rating: Good
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I kept reading that as "Your huddled masses yearning to breathe fire"
which would be pretty cool, if we had masses of firebreathers.
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we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#109 Aug 05 2010 at 7:06 AM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
I kept reading that as "Your huddled masses yearning to breathe fire"
which would be pretty cool, if we had masses of firebreathers.
I'd have to assume America really was Hell then.
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An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come. Victor Hugo

#110 Aug 10 2010 at 2:17 PM Rating: Good
No new data to contradict the RAND study I linked?

Awesome.

To recap: illegal immigration is not known to cost the government *anything* on net.

#111 Aug 10 2010 at 6:17 PM Rating: Decent
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yossarian wrote:
No new data to contradict the RAND study I linked?

Awesome.

To recap: illegal immigration is not known to cost the government *anything* on net.


You're kidding, right? Examine the following statement: "My meal didn't cost the restaurant *anything* on net". Then see if you can noodle out what might just be wrong with that.

I'll give you a hint: To have an even reasonably healthy economy, the average person must contribute *more* to the total economic pie than he costs. It is out of that additional productive output that economic growth occurs, the pie gets larger, future larger populations can be supported, and advancements in technology can be funded. A population which costs as much (or even close to as much) as they contribute is still a net drain on the whole relatively speaking.


And that's even after we discount the somewhat questionable accounting mechanisms RAND used in their study, much of which can be best described as "wishful thinking" and "creative accounting".
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#112 Aug 11 2010 at 2:34 AM Rating: Decent
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You would have a point if government was a for-profit industry like a restaurant. Claiming that somehow breaking even is now a drain on society is stretching things even for you.
#113 Aug 11 2010 at 7:32 AM Rating: Good
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Clearly, this is a problem. Changing the language in the 14th amendment is a pretty direct way of fixing it.


Clear as concrete.

The only people who think it's a problem are conservatives freaking out about the fact that they've alienated the Latino population of the US, and who now think that making it so that more brown people don't become citizens is their solution to maintaining a majority population in this country.

You know you've jumped the shark when Lou Dobbs and Alan Keyes are calling out the right for going too far on this issue.


Edited, Aug 11th 2010 9:34am by catwho
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