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#52 Jul 23 2010 at 6:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Quadkit wrote:
Pencils might degrade to the point of unusable over a few generations' time.


Or... they might not! Or... wait for it... they might just be able to figure out how people managed to write stuff down for thousands of years before modern pencil technology came along. You can write with all sorts of things without needing fancy wooden handles.

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I guess anything seems viable when you only read part of the post you're replying to, though.


The part that argued that it would somehow be impossible for folks surviving the apocalypse to be able to noodle out how to pass on the skills to read and write if they had books, but no pencils? You're really going to stand on that one?
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#53 Jul 26 2010 at 11:59 AM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
The part that argued that it would somehow be impossible for folks surviving the apocalypse to be able to noodle out how to pass on the skills to read and write if they had books, but no pencils? You're really going to stand on that one?


Oh, it would be entirely possible to teach your children how to read and write, books or not. It won't happen though. The emphasis is going to be on survival, the ones who survive are going to be the ones who can run the fastest, not the ones who take time to read to their children.

There'll be some holdouts sure, but by generation 1.5 reading will be pretty much lost.

You know what's more useful than books to people trying to survive with no electricity? Trees.
#54 Jul 26 2010 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
Yodabunny wrote:
gbaji wrote:
The part that argued that it would somehow be impossible for folks surviving the apocalypse to be able to noodle out how to pass on the skills to read and write if they had books, but no pencils? You're really going to stand on that one?


Oh, it would be entirely possible to teach your children how to read and write, books or not. It won't happen though. The emphasis is going to be on survival, the ones who survive are going to be the ones who can run the fastest, not the ones who take time to read to their children.

There'll be some holdouts sure, but by generation 1.5 reading will be pretty much lost.

You know what's more useful than books to people trying to survive with no electricity? Trees.


Maybe I'm naive, but it would seem to me that being educated and able to read books that can teach you about plants that are edible and keeping some sort of record of what you find useful for those who you hope to survive after you would be valuable.
#55 Jul 26 2010 at 12:08 PM Rating: Good
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bypassing the armageddon/gbaji tl;dr. . .

I always have a few books on the go; mostly paper, but enjoy the convenience of being able to read an e-book on the iPad or iPhone in downtime at work 9if I arrive early for a meeting).

I read about a book a day when I'm on vacation, so I can now take a bunch of e-Books with me without a ten ton suitcase.
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#56 Jul 26 2010 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Maybe I'm naive, but it would seem to me that being educated and able to read books that can teach you about plants that are edible and keeping some sort of record of what you find useful for those who you hope to survive after you would be valuable.


It would be valuable, but yes, a little naive. You're still thinking in terms of "what would I pack for a long trip in the woods" instead of "what can I carry that'll keep me alive the longest and still allow me to be mobile so I can run away from people with guns that want to eat me" books are heavy, you can't eat/drink them, and they won't protect you.
#57 Jul 26 2010 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
Yodabunny wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Maybe I'm naive, but it would seem to me that being educated and able to read books that can teach you about plants that are edible and keeping some sort of record of what you find useful for those who you hope to survive after you would be valuable.


It would be valuable, but yes, a little naive. You're still thinking in terms of "what would I pack for a long trip in the woods" instead of "what can I carry that'll keep me alive the longest and still allow me to be mobile so I can run away from people with guns that want to eat me" books are heavy, you can't eat/drink them, and they won't protect you.


I still disagree. Carrying a book on plants and a notebook aren't going to weigh you down all that much.
#58 Jul 26 2010 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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I always have a few books on the go; mostly paper, but enjoy the convenience of being able to read an e-book on the iPad or iPhone in downtime at work (if I arrive early for a meeting).


So it's pretty much like your approach to women, then?
#59 Jul 26 2010 at 12:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
I still disagree. Carrying a book on plants and a notebook aren't going to weigh you down all that much.


You'll be torching that book on the first cold night, and that notebook will be toast the first time it rains.
#60 Jul 26 2010 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
If civilisation ever collapses I'll swim the fucking Atlantic myself and murder you both for having such an inane conversation.
#61 Jul 26 2010 at 12:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Kavekk the Ludicrous wrote:
If civilisation ever collapses I'll swim the fucking Atlantic myself and murder you both for having such an inane conversation.


Swimming the Atlantic would require a support ship for rest periods and food. With no electricity the ship wouldn't be able to start. Sorry, you'll have to kill someone local instead.
#62 Jul 26 2010 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
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Kavekk the Ludicrous wrote:
If civilisation ever collapses I'll swim the fucking Atlantic myself and murder you both for having such an inane conversation.
With any luck they'll both be eaten by bears.
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#63 Jul 26 2010 at 2:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Yodabunny wrote:
gbaji wrote:
The part that argued that it would somehow be impossible for folks surviving the apocalypse to be able to noodle out how to pass on the skills to read and write if they had books, but no pencils? You're really going to stand on that one?


Oh, it would be entirely possible to teach your children how to read and write, books or not. It won't happen though. The emphasis is going to be on survival, the ones who survive are going to be the ones who can run the fastest, not the ones who take time to read to their children.


Sure. And I'm not assuming people are running around with books in their backpacks or anything either. But reading and writing will survive sufficiently enough that once the initial death spiral stops and the survivors have settled into a sustainable lifestyle, the books which survive can be read for the information needed to rebuild. My entire point was that this is only possible if there are sufficient amounts of information left on paper books so that enough survives. Obviously, if all our information is in electronic form, this is impossible. Having to reinvent every single technological discovery will make the recovery process take a hell of a lot longer.


Of course, some would argue that it would be better to do it that way...
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#64 Jul 26 2010 at 2:23 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Of course, some would argue that it would be better to do it that way...


It would be a harder road but in the end we would have better technology. A lot of our technology is hampered by existing infrastructure, patents, "ain't broke don't fix it" etc. People would still remember that certain things were possible so advancement would be much quicker than the first time around. Especially considering all of the equipment would be there to look at in some form or another. It still wouldn't start for a few generations though, and most people by then wouldn't be able to read the books they found if there were any left.
#65 Jul 26 2010 at 2:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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I can see it now: whole libraries full of technical manuals for things that don't work any more, programming languages that don't work anymore, and Twilight collections.

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#66 Jul 26 2010 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Samira wrote:
I can see it now: whole libraries full of technical manuals for things that don't work any more, programming languages that don't work anymore, and Twilight collections.

First in the fire. I'd rather study PASCAL without a computer than read that tripe.
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#67 Jul 26 2010 at 2:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Yodabunny wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Of course, some would argue that it would be better to do it that way...


It would be a harder road but in the end we would have better technology. A lot of our technology is hampered by existing infrastructure, patents, "ain't broke don't fix it" etc.


I don't think patent law would be an issue. And I was thinking more simply. A chemistry textbook, or metallurgical manual would be massively helpful for a society attempting to rebuild. Books on physics, and some engineering books would also be incredibly useful. Similarly, books on plants, farming, and basic tool design would help. I'm not necessarily talking about getting factories to run again. I'm talking about figuring out how to build a plow out of ore without taking a thousand years to do it. Do you know how long it took man to figure out how to build forges hot enough to make steel the first time? You can't just build a campfire and melt down stuff lying around.

A lot of information that will be lost in the initial panic and death can be rapidly regained if there are books lying about with the information written on their pages. One fully stocked small town library has sufficient information in it to jumpstart a recovery from the stone age to early industrial pretty quickly. Heck. A typical bookstore "how to" section would be a treasure trove. But as we go away from brick and mortal bookstores, and away from public libraries, and turn to getting our information from the internet, we reduce the number of those things over time. And if we eliminate them entirely we put ourselves into a silly potential situation.
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#68 Jul 26 2010 at 2:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Debalic wrote:
Samira wrote:
I can see it now: whole libraries full of technical manuals for things that don't work any more, programming languages that don't work anymore, and Twilight collections.

First in the fire. I'd rather study PASCAL without a computer than read that tripe.


After Armageddon, Twilight will be the new religion.

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#69 Jul 26 2010 at 3:51 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Yodabunny wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Of course, some would argue that it would be better to do it that way...


It would be a harder road but in the end we would have better technology. A lot of our technology is hampered by existing infrastructure, patents, "ain't broke don't fix it" etc.


I don't think patent law would be an issue. And I was thinking more simply. A chemistry textbook, or metallurgical manual would be massively helpful for a society attempting to rebuild. Books on physics, and some engineering books would also be incredibly useful. Similarly, books on plants, farming, and basic tool design would help. I'm not necessarily talking about getting factories to run again. I'm talking about figuring out how to build a plow out of ore without taking a thousand years to do it. Do you know how long it took man to figure out how to build forges hot enough to make steel the first time? You can't just build a campfire and melt down stuff lying around.

See what Ash accomplished with just the shit in the trunk of his Oldsmobile?
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publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#70 Jul 26 2010 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
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Only book I'm gonna need after the wheels fall off.

Pocket sized, wipe clean would be my choice.
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#71 Jul 26 2010 at 6:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Debalic wrote:
See what Ash accomplished with just the shit in the trunk of his Oldsmobile?


Precisely! Those survivors will need mechanical hands and that's the only chance they've got!
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#72 Jul 27 2010 at 8:13 AM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
A lot of information that will be lost in the initial panic and death can be rapidly regained if there are books lying about with the information written on their pages.


I'm certainly not arguing that having books wouldn't be useful, I'm saying they won't survive so it doesn't matter. No one is going to choose to save the books when their life is on the line. The vast majority of our books are fiction, next to useless. How many text books do you have in your house? Where do you find text books? In public buildings, quite probably the first to be torched. The vast majority of the world WILL lose the ability to read what books there are.

Rebuilding will happen based on relics found. Someone will find a forge somewhere and figure out how it worked.

Edited, Jul 27th 2010 10:14am by Yodabunny
#73 Jul 29 2010 at 8:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Amazon.com launched a cheaper, wireless-only Kindle on Wednesday, betting that the $139 price will turn its latest electronic reader into a mass-appeal device


GOD DAMMIT!!
#74 Jul 29 2010 at 8:23 AM Rating: Decent
I saw that last night on Gizmodo and all I could think was 'Poor Yoda, that stupid ***. Suck it Canada!'

Sorry.
#75 Jul 29 2010 at 8:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Smiley: laugh

Expect the price to fall even further. We early adapters always over-pay; it's just the way the market bounces.

I look at it optimistically: my replacement device will be much cheaper than the original.

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#76 Jul 29 2010 at 8:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Oh I knew the price would drop. What I didn't know was that the price would drop twice in as many months, and a week after I bought my Kobo, to less than the cost of my Kobo.
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