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#127 Jul 19 2010 at 6:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Since I'm back from vacation and you guys aren't amusing me enough, I'll give the stock answer:

Sir Xsarus wrote:
I do find Capitalism hilarious though. I bought a house a while ago, and currently live there and rent out a few of the rooms to help pay the mortgage faster.

But you can also look at it from this perspective. I had a bunch of money in the bank, and so I convinced three other people to buy me a house because they didn't have money. All I had to do was sign some documents, and lock my money away.


You saved up the money first and made the choice to risk it by investing in a property purchase. They could have done the same thing, but didn't (for whatever reason). Capitalism rewards those who take actions which provide greater value to others in the short term, by granting the investor greater profits in the long term. The same can be said of starting a business, right? You could always argue that your customers are buying your business for you. The shoppers at a store collectively pay more for the goods they buy than it cost the store owner to buy them, and that amount extra is sufficient to pay all the overhead for the store and some profit for the owner. So you could ask why that owner gets to make that profit when he doesn't really do anything, right?

The answer is the short term gain for the consumer. We could all buy goods in bulk for wholesale prices, but realistically no one needs or can consume 500 pounds of fish, or 20 jars of peanut butter, or 100 rolls of toilet paper at a time. We gain the benefit of being able to buy goods we'd never be able to buy in sufficient quantities to justify the shipping if someone else buys them in bulk and then sells them to us in a store. That's the "value" we get, and it's worth the profits we pay to the guy who provided that value to us.


Same deal with an insurance business. Someone had to invest the money to start the business. The fact that the profits are later generated entirely by employees is irrelevant. If no single one of them could generate the same business and provide the same services and thus gain the same accounts and revenue, then every single one of them would be out a job if someone else didn't collect those things together in a single office. The "value" is that he's connecting a group of people with a combination of skills with a group of customers who need those combined skills. And doing so on his own dime. If the business fails, the employee is out a job. The owner is out a job *and* out whatever time and money he put into the business.


There's nothing wrong with the concept. What I find "funny" is when people seem to think that it shouldn't work this way, or that it's somehow unfair that it does. Yet, when you ask them how it could or should work differently, they can't ever give a good answer. Yup. That's funny...
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#128 Jul 19 2010 at 6:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
you guys aren't amusing me enough, I'll give the stock answer

You get what you give, buddy.
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#129 Jul 19 2010 at 6:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
you guys aren't amusing me enough, I'll give the stock answer

You get what you give, buddy.


I was on a break!
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#130 Jul 19 2010 at 7:24 PM Rating: Good
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Seriously Gbaji? Yeah, I understand the concept perfectly well, it's just an amusing way of looking at it. Smiley: oyvey
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#131 Jul 19 2010 at 7:25 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
you guys aren't amusing me enough, I'll give the stock answer

You get what you give, buddy.


I was on a break!

breaks are for the unemployed.
#132 Jul 19 2010 at 9:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Both. Have you driven a competitor out of business before? It's delicious.


<Slap> Take that, Castersrealm! Hah!

Of course we ended up with their crazy people in the end, so maybe they actually won that round? I guess technically they drove themselves out of buisiness, but it still counts!
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#133 Jul 19 2010 at 9:27 PM Rating: Good
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knoxxsouthy wrote:
Bijou,

Quote:
"Liberals" like to think that the country is one big family. That said; those who can sacrifice should sacrifice for the good of the whole family.

See guys? Varrus is a fuzzy-hearted socialist, after all.



The freedom to choose makes all the difference.


this reminds me of a Harry Potter quote:
Quote:
"It was, he thought, the difference between being dragged into the arena to face a battle to the death and walking into the arena with your head held high. Some people, perhaps, would say that there was little to choose between the two ways, but Dumbledore knew - and so do I, thought Harry, with a rush of fierce pride, and so did my parents - that there was all the difference in the world."


It's not so much your choice (because it's made for you) but your attitude. Varus is saying that whether you can or cannot, you should sacrifice; the illusion of a choice matters not - it's your attitude. If you feel you have a choice and still choose to sacrifice, you're a hero; if you feel you don't but are still forced to sacrifice, you're just a little speck caught in the cogs of the machine that is society/capitalism/corporate culture/insert your machination here.

Also, at this point I really am not sure what people are arguing, because it has nothing to do with the OP. But I feel like Varus is on par with Harry Potter, and hey, if teens and tweens can understand him, then that might be the bets he'll ever achieve, so A+!

Edit: Or in retrospect, a fictional British character is smarter than Varus. But let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say he's at the same level!

Edited, Jul 19th 2010 11:28pm by LockeColeMA
#134 Jul 19 2010 at 9:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
Seriously Gbaji? Yeah, I understand the concept perfectly well, it's just an amusing way of looking at it.


I guess? I suppose you can rephrase any financial deal in such an "amusing" manner. And it would be more whimsical and amusing if a ton of people didn't actually think this was some sort of flaw with capitalism which could be "fixed" somehow. By the same amusing perspective, the banker is getting the homeowner to buy his bank for him, right?

I was just presenting the alternative way of looking at it. You know. In case some people might think there's no value gained by the guy who can't afford to buy a house outright being able to get a mortgage loan from a bank, and yet more value to the guy who couldn't afford the down on a house to be able to have a house to live in anyway by paying rent to the other guy. The benefit the guys upstream gain isn't for nothing and taking it away isn't a great idea. It's how and why losses in the financial industry can "trickle down" to hurt the average working guy and also why it's a bad idea to simplify economics to "rich versus poor".

Not saying you were doing that. Just making it clear to those who might not see that there is another side to the equation.
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#135 Jul 19 2010 at 9:39 PM Rating: Decent
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LockeColeMA wrote:
It's not so much your choice (because it's made for you) but your attitude. Varus is saying that whether you can or cannot, you should sacrifice; the illusion of a choice matters not - it's your attitude. If you feel you have a choice and still choose to sacrifice, you're a hero; if you feel you don't but are still forced to sacrifice, you're just a little speck caught in the cogs of the machine that is society/capitalism/corporate culture/insert your machination here.


I'm not sure how or why you got that impression. Varus was talking about a real ability to make a choice. He didn't have to help build up the family business. He choose to do so. He did so out of a sense of obligation to his family, but again it was a choice. He feels that people "should" help their family out, but doesn't say that they're required to by law or anything.

What he was saying is that the Left attempts to apply the same rules, but replaces "family" with "everyone" and replaces "should" with "must". He's talking about the inability to choose not to pay taxes and the lack of individual control over what those taxes are spent on. It's one thing to choose help a family member or friend out when they need it, it's another thing entirely to have the government tell you that you must help out a complete stranger and give you no little or no choice about how or why or how much.

It's not about the illusion of choice at all.
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#136 Jul 19 2010 at 9:49 PM Rating: Good
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I think that it is important to remember that capitalism is built to provide the most benefit to people who already have the most. It's not necessarily a flaw or problem by itself, but it can cause problems and shouldn't be ignored. That wasn't the point of my post though, and it's really tiresome that you think you're somehow responsible for educating people.
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#137 Jul 19 2010 at 9:50 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
It's not about the illusion of choice at all.


Yes it is.

Varus wrote:
Liberals really don't get that sacrifice is the key to success.


According to Varus, the key to success is to sacrifice.
Varus wrote:
The freedom to choose makes all the difference.

But we get the freedom to choose.

-Enter Harry Potter quote-

Unless you think that people willingly choose bad decisions when presented with only a win-lose situation. Which isn't true; if the world were win-lose, we'd pick win every single time. Varus set up a lousy example, where you seemingly have only one choice. In that situation you either willingly do it, or unwillingly do it, but short of serious mental impairment you would never NOT do it. Ergo the illusion of choice is key.

Note (although you won't) that this is for his one either-or choice. It doesn't matter what his larger point was, or more accurately, what you extrapolate it to be (because, let's be honest, there IS no greater point - he just wants to be proven right and the rest of the forum that disagrees with him wrong). It's awfully generous of you to think it's some sort of higher thinking, but it really isn't, and you waste all of our time pretending otherwise. To piggyback off some made-up larger meaning is worthless too.

There is no bigger point, choice is an illusion when it comes to Varus-world, and there is not point to debating your feeble attempts to extrapolate his point because it's built of sand. Sleep well, and welcome back from vacation.
#138 Jul 20 2010 at 12:40 PM Rating: Decent
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LockeColeMA wrote:
gbaji wrote:
It's not about the illusion of choice at all.


Yes it is.


You're going to need a bit more than just a simple negation of my statement, don't you think? I'm not going to play "guess the rationale" with you.

Quote:
Varus wrote:
Liberals really don't get that sacrifice is the key to success.


According to Varus, the key to success is to sacrifice.


Yes. You choose to sacrifice easy/nice things today in the hope that you will become successful down the line as a result. You can't boil it down to one word (sacrifice) and then presumably imply that it means that someone else should sacrifice their success so that others may have some (which is essentially what the liberal socio-economic argument is). That's not even remotely what Varus was talking about, and you know it. You're playing word games instead of looking at the very real distinctions between conservative and liberal outlooks.

Quote:
Varus wrote:
The freedom to choose makes all the difference.

But we get the freedom to choose.


I thought you said we only had the illusion of choice? Which is it?

Quote:
Unless you think that people willingly choose bad decisions when presented with only a win-lose situation. Which isn't true; if the world were win-lose, we'd pick win every single time. Varus set up a lousy example, where you seemingly have only one choice. In that situation you either willingly do it, or unwillingly do it, but short of serious mental impairment you would never NOT do it. Ergo the illusion of choice is key.


No. He's simplified the issue, certainly. Even I'm not wordy enough to list off every possible choice one might make in the course of their life in order to make a point. However, that only means that he left off additional potential choices, not that people are only presented with an illusion of choice.

You're correct. It's not a simple win-lose. However, I think you're taking the wrong angle on the issue. The problem isn't about whether we have choices or not, but whether or not we're judging the choices we have correctly. A young college student might be faced with a choice to study hard, or to party with his friends. One choice might ultimately lead him to a 6 figure salary, while the other leads him to a life of alcohol and drug abuse, petty crime, and spending some time inside a jail cell. We could even simplify this down to a "choice to succeed or to fail". I often hear the counter argument that since no one would ever choose to fail, that therefore there must not have been a real choice, so therefore we can't blame the individual for the outcome. IMO, this is an incredibly weak argument though. There are real choices being made. And those choices do affect the ultimate outcome. It's just that it's not necessarily obvious at any single point along the way.

No one choses to fail. But they do choose to party instead of study. They do choose to drink at that party. The do choose to get behind the wheel afterwards. Perhaps they make this choice or similar ones dozens of times in their lives. And there's certainly a degree of luck involved in the specific result. However, choices are still made, and those choices absolutely affect your odds of different outcomes. While we can't always predict the exact outcome, we can generally identify good choices and bad choices, and most of the time, when someone's life turns out poorly, you can find a pattern of bad choices involved. The fact that you can occasionally find someone who made good choices who had a bad outcome, or someone who made bad choices and had a good outcome, does not nullify the trend and certainly should be treated as the exception and not the rule.


Quote:
Note (although you won't) that this is for his one either-or choice. It doesn't matter what his larger point was, or more accurately, what you extrapolate it to be (because, let's be honest, there IS no greater point - he just wants to be proven right and the rest of the forum that disagrees with him wrong). It's awfully generous of you to think it's some sort of higher thinking, but it really isn't, and you waste all of our time pretending otherwise. To piggyback off some made-up larger meaning is worthless too.


I don't really care about Varus or protecting him or whatever you seem to think this is about. For me, it's not about the person who says something, but the thing being said. I'm not going to go along with an idea or assumption I don't agree with simply because it's being said in opposition to someone or even something else I don't agree with either, and I'm not going to disagree with an idea or assumption simply because it's being said by someone I don't like or don't normally agree with.

I've said many times on this forum: Truth is truth no matter who speaks it. The words "treat others as you'd have them treat you" are good words to live by whether spoken by a divine being, or a drunk in the gutter. Far too often we look at the person saying something, and not the words. I don't care what other things Varus says which I may disagree with. I don't agree with the statement that choices are just illusionary and we're not responsible for our own actions. I don't agree that outcomes in life are predetermined by race or gender or whatever. I don't agree with these things, not just because they're ideas held strongly by people I disagree with in general politically, but because they are absurd on their face. I disagree in general with a political ideology because it holds so many of it's positions based on this and other similar absurdities, not the other way around.

I don't judge Varus' positions based on Varus. I look at what he's saying. And when he says something I agree with, I'm not afraid to say so. I know it's much more comfortable to just follow the crowd and laugh at the "out" crowd, but I don't feel like that's an honest way to be in life. Don't you agree?

Quote:
There is no bigger point, choice is an illusion when it comes to Varus-world, and there is not point to debating your feeble attempts to extrapolate his point because it's built of sand. Sleep well, and welcome back from vacation.


Ah. You don't. You are just ignoring what was said because Varus said it. Sad...
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#139 Jul 20 2010 at 12:51 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
You're going to need a bit more than just a simple negation of my statement, don't you think? I'm not going to play "guess the rationale" with you.

Why not? You're willing to play it with the SCotUS.
#140 Jul 20 2010 at 12:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
I think that it is important to remember that capitalism is built to provide the most benefit to people who already have the most.


I disagree. Capitalism is build to provide the most benefit to those who first provide benefits to others and the least benefit to those who take for themselves first. The banker is rewarded for saving up enough money to lend to someone else by earning interest on the money he lends. The home buyer is rewarded for saving up enough to make the down payment by having additional payments earn him property in addition to a place to live. The renter, meanwhile, is provided with a place to live which may cost hundreds of thousands of dollars (or someone else's money), without himself having done or saved anything. His "cost" for gaining that is that he's the one paying the most for what he gets today, and gains the least benefit over the long run.

Quote:
It's not necessarily a flaw or problem by itself, but it can cause problems and shouldn't be ignored.


Everything "can" cause problems. Capitalism is no more problematic than any other economic system, and a whole lot less problematic than most. It does have the virtue of encouraging people to be more productive than otherwise though and that people's choices have the most impact on their outcomes than any other system. It's not perfect, but what are you comparing it to?


Quote:
That wasn't the point of my post though, and it's really tiresome that you think you're somehow responsible for educating people.


What was the point of your post then? And I'll stop acting as though I need to educate people when people stop clearly showing that they need one. Your understanding of capitalism as expressed above could have come off some liberal's bumper sticker. Silly me for wanting to correct that.
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#141 Jul 20 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Majivo wrote:
gbaji wrote:
You're going to need a bit more than just a simple negation of my statement, don't you think? I'm not going to play "guess the rationale" with you.

Why not? You're willing to play it with the SCotUS.


Followed by long explanations of my position and why I hold it. Just saying "you're wrong" is kinda pointless.

As to the rationale bit, court decisions also include lots of words. I read the words and apply logic and reason to them. It's not hard to do really. Most people just choose not to.

Edited, Jul 20th 2010 11:54am by gbaji
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#142 Jul 20 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Majivo wrote:
gbaji wrote:
You're going to need a bit more than just a simple negation of my statement, don't you think? I'm not going to play "guess the rationale" with you.

Why not? You're willing to play it with the SCotUS.


Followed by long explanations of my position and why I hold it. Just saying "you're wrong" is kinda pointless.

As to the rationale bit, court decisions also include lots of words. I read the words and apply logic and reason to them. It's not hard to do really. Most people just choose not to.

You have the most subjective "logic and reason" I've ever seen. You also pretend that their rationale makes some difference to the law when it's not written into the ruling. Hint: it does not. Yet you still try to use it to justify your viewpoint when it's completely ineffective in a legal sense.

Edited, Jul 20th 2010 1:56pm by Majivo
#143 Jul 20 2010 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Sir Xsarus wrote:
I think that it is important to remember that capitalism is built to provide the most benefit to people who already have the most.

I disagree. Capitalism is build to provide the most benefit to those who first provide benefits to others and the least benefit to those who take for themselves first.
Sure, among those who already have the most. Your 'disagreement' doesn't really address my point.

gbaji wrote:
Quote:
It's not necessarily a flaw or problem by itself, but it can cause problems and shouldn't be ignored.

Everything "can" cause problems. Capitalism is no more problematic than any other economic system, and a whole lot less problematic than most. It does have the virtue of encouraging people to be more productive than otherwise though and that people's choices have the most impact on their outcomes than any other system. It's not perfect, but what are you comparing it to?
I'm not comparing it to anything, I'm stating that people should keep it in mind. I'm not advocating for people to renounce capitalism. Are you saying that we should ignore any potential problems with capitalism because you think it's the best system?

Edited, Jul 20th 2010 2:22pm by Xsarus
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#144 Jul 20 2010 at 2:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Majivo wrote:
You have the most subjective "logic and reason" I've ever seen. You also pretend that their rationale makes some difference to the law when it's not written into the ruling. Hint: it does not. Yet you still try to use it to justify your viewpoint when it's completely ineffective in a legal sense.


Not going to rehash an argument we just had a few weeks ago, but precedent is based on associations between legal concepts. It's not incorrect to look at the path of precedence to determine *why* something is viewed a particular way legally. To do this, you have to ask "why did this judge use that precedent for the ruling he made?". And no, they don't always spell it out. But it's not particularly complicated to look at the first ruling to state that marriage is a "fundamental right", and note that while doing so, the judge quoted previous rulings establishing procreation as a right and parental choice as a right and conclude that those are somehow connected. One follows from the other. The judge does not have to spell it out. It's assumed by the fact that he quoted the previous rulings when making his own ruling.
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#145 Jul 20 2010 at 2:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Also, it helps if you get the cases wrong, misapply the quotes and ignore other portions of the ruling before passing yourself off as an expert in understanding law as everyone else laughs at you. Gbaji can tell you all about that.
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#146 Jul 20 2010 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
gbaji wrote:

I disagree. Capitalism is build to provide the most benefit to those who first provide benefits to others and the least benefit to those who take for themselves first.
Sure, among those who already have the most.


Only those who have the most can provide that to others. How do you get a home loan if no one has enough money to lend you any? How do you rent a home if no one can afford to buy one to rent to you? The "potential problem" you talk about isn't a problem at all. It's capitalism's greatest strength. It's what makes the system work. Remove it and the whole thing collapses and we still end out with rich and poor, but now the rich have no reason to help the poor by lending them money, or opening up stores, or developing new products and services. Get it?

Quote:
Your 'disagreement' doesn't really address my point.


It kinda does.

Quote:
I'm not comparing it to anything, I'm stating that people should keep it in mind. I'm not advocating for people to renounce capitalism. Are you saying that we should ignore any potential problems with capitalism because you think it's the best system?


No. I'm saying that the fact that you're not comparing it to anything is the problem. When you point out problems with one system without addressing or even mentioning others, the result is an implication that the others are "better" than the one you criticized. It's amazing how often you feel the need to point out the potential problems of capitalism, but I don't think I've once seen you post a similar concern with things like socialized medicine, or big government, much less talk about the dangers inherent in over regulation, or ever take a position in opposition to any sort of socialist system. Maybe I just missed it all these years, but you sure seem to be awfully selective about when you post your "concerns" about things.
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#147 Jul 20 2010 at 2:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Also, it helps if you get the cases wrong, misapply the quotes and ignore other portions of the ruling before passing yourself off as an expert in understanding law as everyone else laughs at you. Gbaji can tell you all about that.


Yes. Because you weren't ignoring any portions of the ruling. Got it!
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#148 Jul 20 2010 at 2:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Not really, no. Then again, I also didn't display a comic ineptness in understanding precedent or any of the cases until stumbling upon some web page to hold my hand so I'd stop confusing them. And I also didn't make a hilarious *** out of myself by hooting in triumph over how a SCotUS ruling proved most Justices didn't really agree that marriage was a right... because in reality I had absolutely no clue what the actual ruling was or how any of the Justices actually came down in the case.

But you did give me a lot of laughs in that thread as you flailed about so I thank you for that.

Edited, Jul 20th 2010 3:31pm by Jophiel
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#149 Jul 20 2010 at 3:58 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Sir Xsarus wrote:
gbaji wrote:

I disagree. Capitalism is build to provide the most benefit to those who first provide benefits to others and the least benefit to those who take for themselves first.
Sure, among those who already have the most.
Only those who have the most can provide that to others. How do you get a home loan if no one has enough money to lend you any? How do you rent a home if no one can afford to buy one to rent to you? The "potential problem" you talk about isn't a problem at all. It's capitalism's greatest strength. It's what makes the system work. Remove it and the whole thing collapses and we still end out with rich and poor, but now the rich have no reason to help the poor by lending them money, or opening up stores, or developing new products and services. Get it?
Smiley: oyvey Yeah, again, I understand how the system works. It's interesting how you agree with what I said, and then spend so many sentences trying to justify ignoring it. I said that it's an intrinsic part of capitalism. That implies to me at least that it's not something that can just be taken out. That doesn't mean you should ignore it though.

Gbaji wrote:
Quote:
I'm not comparing it to anything, I'm stating that people should keep it in mind. I'm not advocating for people to renounce capitalism. Are you saying that we should ignore any potential problems with capitalism because you think it's the best system?
No. I'm saying that the fact that you're not comparing it to anything is the problem. When you point out problems with one system without addressing or even mentioning others, the result is an implication that the others are "better" than the one you criticized.
Only to you. But you've never been very good at supporting a system and still being able to criticize it. I don't really need to compare capitalism with anything, because I'm not trying to replace it.

Gbaji wrote:
It's amazing how often you feel the need to point out the potential problems of capitalism, but I don't think I've once seen you post a similar concern with things like socialized medicine, or big government, much less talk about the dangers inherent in over regulation, or ever take a position in opposition to any sort of socialist system. Maybe I just missed it all these years, but you sure seem to be awfully selective about when you post your "concerns" about things.
Smiley: dubious I often point out the problems with capitalism? Really? Over the years I've never provided any concerns about things I support? It's nice an all that you can make up stuff to make yourself sound more convincing, but that's all it is. I try to point out the pitfalls when I make posts supporting a topic, which you never do., although I'll err on the side of being concise. Right now you're trying as hard as you can to ignore my point, and pretend I'm making some statement that capitalism is horrible. Smiley: oyvey

Hey I'd love to see another example of me pointing out the potential problems with capitalism. Hit me!

Edited, Jul 20th 2010 5:29pm by Xsarus
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#150 Jul 20 2010 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
Human sacrifice is the key to success.
#151 Jul 20 2010 at 5:12 PM Rating: Good
Kavekk the Ludicrous wrote:
Human sacrifice is the key to success.
The Aztecs were the only true capitalists?
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