LockeColeMA wrote:
gbaji wrote:
It's not about the illusion of choice at all.
Yes it is.
You're going to need a bit more than just a simple negation of my statement, don't you think? I'm not going to play "guess the rationale" with you.
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Varus wrote:
Liberals really don't get that sacrifice is the key to success.
According to Varus, the key to success is to sacrifice.
Yes.
You choose to sacrifice easy/nice things today in the hope that
you will become successful down the line as a result. You can't boil it down to one word (sacrifice) and then presumably imply that it means that someone else should sacrifice their success so that others may have some (which is essentially what the liberal socio-economic argument is). That's not even remotely what Varus was talking about, and you know it. You're playing word games instead of looking at the very real distinctions between conservative and liberal outlooks.
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Varus wrote:
The freedom to choose makes all the difference.
But we get the freedom to choose.
I thought you said we only had the illusion of choice? Which is it?
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Unless you think that people willingly choose bad decisions when presented with only a win-lose situation. Which isn't true; if the world were win-lose, we'd pick win every single time. Varus set up a lousy example, where you seemingly have only one choice. In that situation you either willingly do it, or unwillingly do it, but short of serious mental impairment you would never NOT do it. Ergo the illusion of choice is key.
No. He's simplified the issue, certainly. Even I'm not wordy enough to list off every possible choice one might make in the course of their life in order to make a point. However, that only means that he left off additional potential choices, not that people are only presented with an illusion of choice.
You're correct. It's not a simple win-lose. However, I think you're taking the wrong angle on the issue. The problem isn't about whether we have choices or not, but whether or not we're judging the choices we have correctly. A young college student might be faced with a choice to study hard, or to party with his friends. One choice might ultimately lead him to a 6 figure salary, while the other leads him to a life of alcohol and drug abuse, petty crime, and spending some time inside a jail cell. We could even simplify this down to a "choice to succeed or to fail". I often hear the counter argument that since no one would ever choose to fail, that therefore there must not have been a real choice, so therefore we can't blame the individual for the outcome. IMO, this is an incredibly weak argument though. There are real choices being made. And those choices do affect the ultimate outcome. It's just that it's not necessarily obvious at any single point along the way.
No one choses to fail. But they do choose to party instead of study. They do choose to drink at that party. The do choose to get behind the wheel afterwards. Perhaps they make this choice or similar ones dozens of times in their lives. And there's certainly a degree of luck involved in the specific result. However, choices are still made, and those choices absolutely affect your odds of different outcomes. While we can't always predict the exact outcome, we can generally identify good choices and bad choices, and most of the time, when someone's life turns out poorly, you can find a pattern of bad choices involved. The fact that you can occasionally find someone who made good choices who had a bad outcome, or someone who made bad choices and had a good outcome, does not nullify the trend and certainly should be treated as the exception and not the rule.
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Note (although you won't) that this is for his one either-or choice. It doesn't matter what his larger point was, or more accurately, what you extrapolate it to be (because, let's be honest, there IS no greater point - he just wants to be proven right and the rest of the forum that disagrees with him wrong). It's awfully generous of you to think it's some sort of higher thinking, but it really isn't, and you waste all of our time pretending otherwise. To piggyback off some made-up larger meaning is worthless too.
I don't really care about Varus or protecting him or whatever you seem to think this is about. For me, it's not about the person who says something, but the thing being said. I'm not going to go along with an idea or assumption I don't agree with simply because it's being said in opposition to someone or even something else I don't agree with either, and I'm not going to disagree with an idea or assumption simply because it's being said by someone I don't like or don't normally agree with.
I've said many times on this forum: Truth is truth no matter who speaks it. The words "treat others as you'd have them treat you" are good words to live by whether spoken by a divine being, or a drunk in the gutter. Far too often we look at the person saying something, and not the words. I don't care what other things Varus says which I may disagree with. I don't agree with the statement that choices are just illusionary and we're not responsible for our own actions. I don't agree that outcomes in life are predetermined by race or gender or whatever. I don't agree with these things, not just because they're ideas held strongly by people I disagree with in general politically, but because they are absurd on their face. I disagree in general with a political ideology
because it holds so many of it's positions based on this and other similar absurdities, not the other way around.
I don't judge Varus' positions based on Varus. I look at what he's saying. And when he says something I agree with, I'm not afraid to say so. I know it's much more comfortable to just follow the crowd and laugh at the "out" crowd, but I don't feel like that's an honest way to be in life. Don't you agree?
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There is no bigger point, choice is an illusion when it comes to Varus-world, and there is not point to debating your feeble attempts to extrapolate his point because it's built of sand. Sleep well, and welcome back from vacation.
Ah. You don't. You are just ignoring what was said because Varus said it. Sad...