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Giving fetuses unapproved drugs to prevent lesbianismFollow

#1 Jun 30 2010 at 9:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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This one's a doozy.

So, without the typical research-oversight safety net, this doc is administering an unapproved, drug off-label to pregnant women in an effort to prevent congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH), often known as "ambiguous genitalia" where the ******** is enlarged and resembles a *****, and the girl herself often has a more masculine voice and physical appearance, despite being anatomically female.

Now, if all she were attempting to do was fix a physiological birth defect, that would be one thing. But no, it appears that the emphasis of her research isn't so much on whether or not it corrects CAH, but on whether or not it prevents lesbianism, bisexuality, and "behavioral masculinity" in girls born with this defect.

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They go on to suggest that the work might offer some insight into the influence of prenatal hormones on the development of sexual orientation in general. “That this may apply also to sexual orientation in at least a subgroup of women is suggested by the fact that earlier research has repeatedly shown that about one-third of homosexual women have (modestly) increased levels of androgens.” They “conclude that the findings support a sexual-differentiation perspective involving prenatal androgens on the development of sexual orientation.”

And it isn’t just that many women with CAH have a lower interest, compared to other women, in having sex with men. In another paper entitled “What Causes Low Rates of Child-Bearing in Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia?” Meyer-Bahlburg writes that “CAH women as a group have a lower interest than controls in getting married and performing the traditional child-care/housewife role. As children, they show an unusually low interest in engaging in maternal play with baby dolls, and their interest in caring for infants, the frequency of daydreams or fantasies of pregnancy and motherhood, or the expressed wish of experiencing pregnancy and having children of their own appear to be relatively low in all age groups.”

In the same article, Meyer-Bahlburg suggests that treatments with prenatal dexamethasone might cause these girls’ behavior to be closer to the expectation of heterosexual norms: “Long term follow-up studies of the behavioral outcome will show whether dexamethasone treatment also prevents the effects of prenatal androgens on brain and behavior.”

In a paper published just this year in the Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, New and her colleague, pediatric endocrinologist Saroj Nimkarn of Weill Cornell Medical College, go further, constructing low interest in babies and men – and even interest in what they consider to be men’s occupations and games – as “abnormal,” and potentially preventable with prenatal dex:

“Gender-related behaviors, namely childhood play, peer association, career and leisure time preferences in adolescence and adulthood, maternalism, aggression, and sexual orientation become masculinized in 46,XX girls and women with 21OHD deficiency [CAH]. These abnormalities have been attributed to the effects of excessive prenatal androgen levels on the sexual differentiation of the brain and later on behavior.” Nimkarn and New continue: “We anticipate that prenatal dexamethasone therapy will reduce the well-documented behavioral masculinization . . .”

It seems more than a little ironic to have New, one of the first women pediatric endocrinologists and a member of the National Academy of Sciences, constructing women who go into “men’s” fields as “abnormal.” And yet it appears that New is suggesting that the “prevention” of “behavioral masculinization” is a benefit of treatment to parents with whom she speaks about prenatal dex. In a 2001 presentation to the CARES Foundation (a videotape of which we have), New seemed to suggest to parents that one of the goals of treatment of girls with CAH is to turn them into wives and mothers. Showing a slide of the ambiguous genitals of a girl with CAH, New told the assembled parents:

“The challenge here is . . . to see what could be done to restore this baby to the normal female appearance which would be compatible with her parents presenting her as a girl, with her eventually becoming somebody’s wife, and having normal sexual development, and becoming a mother. And she has all the machinery for motherhood, and therefore nothing should stop that, if we can repair her surgically and help her psychologically to continue to grow and develop as a girl.”

In the Q&A period, during a discussion of prenatal dex treatments, an audience member asked New, “Isn’t there a benefit to the female babies in terms of reducing the androgen effects on the brain?” New answered, “You know, when the babies who have been treated with dex prenatally get to an age in which they are sexually active, I’ll be able to answer that question.” At that point, she’ll know if they are interested in taking men and making babies.

In a previous Bioethics Forum post, Alice Dreger noted an instance of a prospective father using knowledge of the fraternal birth order effect to try to avoid having a gay son by a surrogate pregnancy. There may be other individualized instances of parents trying to ensure heterosexual children before birth. But the use of prenatal dexamethasone treatments for CAH represents, to our knowledge, the first systematic medical effort attached to a “paradigm” of attempting in utero to reduce rates of homosexuality, bisexuality, and “low maternal interest.”




I'm sure it comes as a surprise to absolutely no one that her research is being used as a springboard onto the notion of "curing" lesbianism by addressing prenatal androgen exposure.

They're not just trying to cure a physiological defect, they're opening the door to trying to "cure" non-feminine women to make them fall in line with heteronormative gender roles.

Yeahhh. I really don't even know where to begin addressing the wrongness there.

#2 Jun 30 2010 at 10:10 AM Rating: Good
I'm for designer babies. I mean, what possibly could go wrong?
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#3 Jun 30 2010 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
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Interesting. My initial thought was "well, if it's a defect, I don't see the harm in trying to cure it," but then I realized that it's not really a defect at all. It's just different. It's certainly not something that is going to be debilitating or cause some sort of handicap. What a weird scenario.
#4 Jun 30 2010 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
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What about drugs to promote bisexualism in females?
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#5 Jun 30 2010 at 10:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Iamadam the Prohpet wrote:
What about drugs to promote bisexualism in females?
I think those are called "roofies."
#6 Jun 30 2010 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
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Brian Dugan, a child-raper and murderer had appealed his death sentence based on a brain scan that showed his brain worked like other psychopaths, but unlike 'normal' people.

Psycho's lawyer wrote:
"Someone shouldn't be executed for a condition that they were born with, because it's not their fault," Greenberg says. "The crime is their fault, and he wasn't saying it wasn't his fault, and he wasn't saying, give [me] a free pass. But he was saying, don't kill me because it's not my fault that I was born this way."


The argument attempted to equate Dugan's brain function to that of someone with a low IQ; The court will recognize a low IQ in trying and sentencing an individual.

If this 'difference' in brain function could be altered in the womb, should it be? Should we be weeding out not only lesbians but psychopaths?

As to the op, there is a matter of personal choice. Maybe parents have a viable reason for not wanting a lesbian prone baby. Perhaps it's because they don't agree with same-sex relationships, but there may be other reasons. Perhaps they just don't want to see their daughter grow up and live with the hate and persecution that so many live with now.

Is it ok to attempt to influence other physical traits of babies while in the womb - hair color, eye color, height etc.
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#7 Jun 30 2010 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Iamadam the Prohpet wrote:
What about drugs to promote bisexualism in females?
I think those are called "roofies."


Smiley: thumbsup
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#8 Jun 30 2010 at 10:57 AM Rating: Good
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Hypothetically, if people found a 'switch' that could prevent babies from being homosexual, I don't think the government has a role to stop them using it. I mean, we let women drink while they're pregnant, and this is far less damaging then that, if it's damaging at all.

If I was having a baby and someone came to me and said, you can choose heterosexual or homosexual with no other consequences, I would choose hetero in a heartbeat. It's much easier to not have such a fundamental difference to everyone around you, why would I put a kid through that. I don't think being gay is a birth defect, but it certainly seems to make life more difficult.

@Elinda, Right now the precedent is that you really can't say much about what a mother can or can't do with a fetus. CFS tried to enforce a no drinking rule on a pregnant woman who'd already had one or two fetal alcohol babies, but the courts ruled they couldn't as the fetus wasn't recognized as a person. I can't imagine this sort of thing is any different. Not sure what the precedent in the states is though.

Edited, Jun 30th 2010 12:00pm by Xsarus
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#9 Jun 30 2010 at 11:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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This just brings up all sorts of interesting questions.

I think, personally, the whole "designer baby" thing is unethical. I can see scanning for and treating actual defects, but things like physical traits and tendencies and behavioral issues are over the line. Let nature take its course. The child is the one that has to live with your decisions the rest of its life, not you.
#10 Jun 30 2010 at 11:02 AM Rating: Good
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True, but if someone else doesn't see it as unethical, is our role to stop them? I don't like designer babies either.
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#11 Jun 30 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
Sir Xsarus wrote:
@Elinda, Right now the precedent is that you really can't say much about what a mother can or can't do with a fetus. CFS tried to enforce a no drinking rule on a pregnant woman who'd already had one or two fetal alcohol babies, but the courts ruled they couldn't as the fetus wasn't recognized as a person. I can't imagine this sort of thing is any different. Not sure what the precedent in the states is though.

Yeah, the rule now is basically that unless you wanted to keep the kid and someone else causes it to die before it's born you can do whatever you want to it until it pops out. Then you get to dump it on the state and let taxpayers pay for your mistakes.
#12 Jun 30 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
This just brings up all sorts of interesting questions.

I think, personally, the whole "designer baby" thing is unethical. I can see scanning for and treating actual defects, but things like physical traits and tendencies and behavioral issues are over the line. Let nature take its course. The child is the one that has to live with your decisions the rest of its life, not you.
I can almost imagine the day that you could be held liable if you didn't fix your kids abnormal personality traits while in the womb.

Weird stuff.
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#13 Jun 30 2010 at 11:22 AM Rating: Good
Sir Xsarus wrote:
@Elinda, Right now the precedent is that you really can't say much about what a mother can or can't do with a fetus. CFS tried to enforce a no drinking rule on a pregnant woman who'd already had one or two fetal alcohol babies, but the courts ruled they couldn't as the fetus wasn't recognized as a person. I can't imagine this sort of thing is any different. Not sure what the precedent in the states is though.

Edited, Jun 30th 2010 12:00pm by Xsarus


Which makes me wonder why (adult, consentual) incest is illegal.

Also, wasn't there a story semi-recently where a deaf couple (or was it blind?) wanted to have a deaf baby, but the courts stepped in? I can't remember how that was ruled...
#14 Jun 30 2010 at 11:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Brian Dugan, a child-raper and murderer had appealed his death sentence based on a brain scan that showed his brain worked like other psychopaths, but unlike 'normal' people.

Psycho's lawyer wrote:
"Someone shouldn't be executed for a condition that they were born with, because it's not their fault," Greenberg says. "The crime is their fault, and he wasn't saying it wasn't his fault, and he wasn't saying, give [me] a free pass. But he was saying, don't kill me because it's not my fault that I was born this way."


The argument attempted to equate Dugan's brain function to that of someone with a low IQ; The court will recognize a low IQ in trying and sentencing an individual.

If this 'difference' in brain function could be altered in the womb, should it be? Should we be weeding out not only lesbians but psychopaths?

As to the op, there is a matter of personal choice. Maybe parents have a viable reason for not wanting a lesbian prone baby. Perhaps it's because they don't agree with same-sex relationships, but there may be other reasons. Perhaps they just don't want to see their daughter grow up and live with the hate and persecution that so many live with now.

Is it ok to attempt to influence other physical traits of babies while in the womb - hair color, eye color, height etc.


I guess it depends on whether you see psychopaths and/or lesbians as any sort of threat to themselves or to society.

Eugenics is a hot-button topic, but if there were a reliable genetic marker for sociopathy I would be in favor of exploring treatment options. Lesbianism, not so much.
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#15 Jun 30 2010 at 11:42 AM Rating: Good
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Which makes me wonder why (adult, consentual) incest is illegal.
Have you got a hot cousin, or something? You've brought this up in two threads today. Smiley: lol
#16 Jun 30 2010 at 11:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Which makes me wonder why (adult, consentual) incest is illegal.
Have you got a hot cousin, or something? You've brought this up in two threads today. Smiley: lol


Don't mind her, she lives in Tennessee.
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#17 Jun 30 2010 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Which makes me wonder why (adult, consentual) incest is illegal.
Have you got a hot cousin, or something? You've brought this up in two threads today. Smiley: lol


No. Smiley: lol gbaji brought it up in another thread, which made me think about it in this one with people saying that you can't stop the mother from doing anything to a kid once it's in her (like drinking, etc.). Just seems like it's sort of the same thing, people saying incest is illegal only because of possible birth defects. But drinking while pregnant isn't illegal.
#18 Jun 30 2010 at 11:52 AM Rating: Good
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I'm pretty sure the only reason incest has ever been considered even immoral is because of possible birth defects.
#19 Jun 30 2010 at 11:58 AM Rating: Excellent
Not necessarily fixing, but even screening for defects causes a host of ethical issues. With pre-implantation genetic diagnosis, parents who have what we would consider a "defect" can choose to force their kid to have the same thing. Two instances where this has caused an ethical dilemma (and ultimately the parents won): When both parents are genetically deaf, and they screen for deafness in their embryos to ensure their child is non-hearing, and when both parents are genetically dwarf, and they screen for dwarfism in their embryos to ensure that they give birth to a "little person" as well.

I think screening for severe birth defects is fine (even my own parents used radical new screening techology in the very late 70s to ensure I didn't have Down's syndrome - otherwise I'd have been aborted), but I draw the line at deliberately promoting defects. If I was born deaf, and I found out my parents had the choice to make me deaf, I'd be mad as hell.

For the OP - I think the doctor's heart is in the wrong place. If he was doing it for the sake of the child, to try to prevent her from having gender identity issues because of physical defects in her body, then I'd be okay with it. Advertising it as a "prevention" or "cure" for lesbianism is fraud. After all, how many lesbian women are out there with a perfectly normal body?
#20 Jun 30 2010 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Germany tried eugenics in the 1930s. Adding more technology doesn't make it any more ethical.

Edit: To be fair, they wern't the only ones. For a time, the U.S. had forced sterilization of mentally handicaped people.

Edited, Jun 30th 2010 2:04pm by ShadorVIII
#21 Jun 30 2010 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
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If you really think the issue is as black-and-white as that then you should've been kicked to the curb by eugenics yourself.
#22 Jun 30 2010 at 12:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
I'm pretty sure the only reason incest has ever been considered even immoral is because of possible birth defects.

Eh, it messes with social dynamics as well when your mother is also your girlfriend, etc. Whether or not this was a major concern I couldn't tell you but I'd guess it factored into it.
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#23 Jun 30 2010 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Majivo wrote:
If you really think the issue is as black-and-white as that then you should've been kicked to the curb by eugenics yourself.


Ok, I'm not against the whole "screening for birth defects" thing. It would be good to know what to expect, I suppose. If there's a way to cure said defect with GenEng, I suppose that's okay, too. But the guy in the OP is not doing that. He is trying to "cure" lesbianism, whch is not a disease. Where do we draw the line as to what needs "cured"? Eye color? Hair color? I admit, I Godwin'd this thread, but discussions on GenEng inevatably "go there" because GenEng itself has the potential to "go there".
#24 Jun 30 2010 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
I can almost imagine the day that you could be held liable if you didn't fix your kids abnormal personality traits while in the womb.


No, they'd just join the ranks of a new underclass in society.

ShadorVIII wrote:
Where do we draw the line as to what needs "cured"? Eye color? Hair color?


The line is drawn at the gingers.
#25 Jun 30 2010 at 12:21 PM Rating: Excellent
The One and Only ShadorVIII wrote:
But the guy in the OP is not doing that. He is trying to "cure" lesbianism, whch is not a disease. Where do we draw the line as to what needs "cured"? Eye color? Hair color?


I'm not sure there should be a line. Not trying to sound like a jerk, but what does it matter, really? Of course lesbianism isn't a disease, but it might be better for the kid if their parents are such rabid homophobes that they would go to such lengths to try to ensure the kid won't be a homosexual.
#26 Jun 30 2010 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only ShadorVIII wrote:
Majivo wrote:
If you really think the issue is as black-and-white as that then you should've been kicked to the curb by eugenics yourself.


Ok, I'm not against the whole "screening for birth defects" thing. It would be good to know what to expect, I suppose. If there's a way to cure said defect with GenEng, I suppose that's okay, too. But the guy in the OP is not doing that. He is trying to "cure" lesbianism, whch is not a disease. Where do we draw the line as to what needs "cured"? Eye color? Hair color? I admit, I Godwin'd this thread, but discussions on GenEng inevatably "go there" because GenEng itself has the potential to "go there".

The fact that we do not yet have a line drawn in the sand doesn't mean it is impossible to make one. These concerns are rather overblown since it's not as though we're going in and manipulating individual genes right now; we're only screening for defects and allowing for the possibility for abortion if there's something severe (Down's syndrome, for example). As far as being able to choose eye and hair color, well, why not? It's not as though society would suffer from these changes. We have a vested interest in not allowing you to choose your child's gender, but if you want to tweak your kid's genes to make them a little smarter here, a bit more athletic there, then why should we stop you? It's positive for society overall, as long as you aren't risking serious complications for the sake of giving your kid blue eyes or something. Eugenics used to have serious negative implications because it meant killing off undesirables, or at least preventing them from breeding. What's the harm here?
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