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The BP Story So Far. . . Follow

#52 Jun 11 2010 at 8:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency MoebiusLord wrote:
If there's any truth to the story that they lose more oil in Nigeria every year than has so far come out of the Deep Water Horizon hole...

They probably lose it to those Nigerian e-mail scammers. Those guys are rascals.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#53 Jun 11 2010 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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His Excellency MoebiusLord wrote:
Lord Nobby wrote:
PS, the 'BP is British' jokes are red herrings. The multinational status of oil companies makes the location of their HQ purely academic.

From what perspective? I'd argue that their status as a British company is very important to all of the British pensioners who have their life savings tied up in it.
Crap argument and irrelevant.

We happen to have a big pension stake in BP because they're huge; not because they're British. Our pension funds have large stakes in companies across the globe.
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#54 Jun 11 2010 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
Lord Nobby wrote:
His Excellency MoebiusLord wrote:
Lord Nobby wrote:
PS, the 'BP is British' jokes are red herrings. The multinational status of oil companies makes the location of their HQ purely academic.

From what perspective? I'd argue that their status as a British company is very important to all of the British pensioners who have their life savings tied up in it.
Crap argument and irrelevant.

We happen to have a big pension stake in BP because they're huge; not because they're British. Our pension funds have large stakes in companies across the globe.

I think it's crap too, but it's the one being made at the moment to (and by) Davey.
#55 Jun 11 2010 at 11:29 AM Rating: Decent
Plug the D*mn hole!!Smiley: laugh
#56 Jun 11 2010 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
knoxxsouthy wrote:
Plug the D*mn hole!!Smiley: laugh
Are you volunteering?
#57 Jun 11 2010 at 4:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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MDenham wrote:
knoxxsouthy wrote:
Plug the D*mn hole!!Smiley: laugh
Are you volunteering?

Varrus is just jealous that something is spewing more toxic **** than him.
#58 Jun 11 2010 at 4:48 PM Rating: Decent
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knoxxsouthy wrote:
Plug the D*mn hole!!Smiley: laugh

What's *your* plan?
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publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#59 Jun 11 2010 at 4:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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MDenham wrote:
knoxxsouthy wrote:
Plug the D*mn hole!!Smiley: laugh
Are you volunteering?

The Man Seeking Man is really more of a plugee.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#60 Jun 11 2010 at 6:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
so yeah, it sucks that they underestimated, or just misrepresented the spill, but that's hindsight for you. If it had turned out to be what it originally was thought to be, then the government jumping in would have been seen as wasteful and would also have slowed down the process. It's a judgment call.


My point is that the Obama administration took an approach to the spill designed to give them a "win/win" position, but it required that the oil spill actually be smallish and be plugged relatively quickly. They deliberately took a back-seat position so that they could publicly criticize BP for causing the disaster, demand that they "fix the leak", but not be subject to responsibility if things didn't go perfectly. That approach works *if* you are either a mid level political group and not actually subject to responsibility for the results regardless of the cause.

What happened to "the buck stops here"? Apparently, Obama didn't get that memo. He seems to think that it's sufficient to just blame BP for what has and is happening, but that's not going to wash.

Quote:
Just to be clear, your idea for what Obama should have done would be to duplicate work done by more qualified people, in the hopes that some new information would be gleaned. You realize that all the estimates of oil are from observing the spread of the oil and not really by actually looking at the spill itself.


Nope. That's not it at all. I'm not saying he needed to duplicate effort, but at least make sure that his people were involved in the process from day one, and if they felt that BP wasn't doing enough quickly enough to step up and help coordinate things. What it appears they did instead was stay as far away from the decision making and planning and calculating as possible so that they could claim ignorance when something didn't work (exactly as they are doing now), but make sure that the public knows that they're "pushing BP to fix the problem", so that they're on the people's side when folks get angry about it.


Again, had BP plugged the leak in the first few weeks, this plan would have worked out well. They can claim that they got BP to do what needed to be done, and then move on to getting BP to pay for all the damage that'll have to be cleaned up. But that didn't happen, did it? And the whole line of BS about how BP mislead them is just that: BS. If they didn't have access to that information, they should have. If they did have access to that information, they shouldn't have been relying solely on BP to provide them answers.

You don't have to duplicate the underwater work and whatnot, but you do need to be involved enough to make sure that the right actions are being taken and that the information you're getting is legitimate. If we're to believe the claims of ignorance, the government just plain didn't do this at all. Hence, my assumption that they chose to just sit back and spin the blame for the disaster rather than actually help in fixing it.
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#61 Jun 11 2010 at 6:17 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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gbaji wrote:
Again, had BP plugged the leak in the first few weeks, this plan would have worked out well. They can claim that they got BP to do what needed to be done, and then move on to getting BP to pay for all the damage that'll have to be cleaned up. But that didn't happen, did it? And the whole line of BS about how BP mislead them is just that: BS. If they didn't have access to that information, they should have. If they did have access to that information, they shouldn't have been relying solely on BP to provide them answers.
And what do you think would have been done differently if the administration was appearing to react in the way that you wanted to act? Being more aggressive about it doesn't make strategies (that we in hindsight know have failed) to plug the leak suddenly work.
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Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#62gbaji, Posted: Jun 11 2010 at 7:11 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) No. It doesn't. But it does show that you were involved in the planning and decision making and a "partner" in the strategies. Being willing to put skin in the game says a lot about commitment. The guy who tries and fails will at least be given credit for trying. The guy who sits back and has others try and then blames them when they fail? Not so much. At the end of the day the President is responsible for what happens as a result of this spill regardless of who's "fault" it is. That's the bit I don't think he quite understands because it's well outside his experience up until this point.
#63 Jun 11 2010 at 8:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
That's the bit I don't think he quite understands because it's well outside his experience up until this point.

Right. But not beyond your's because you obviously managed to noodle it out.

Does it ever get tiring being such a tool?
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Belkira wrote:
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#64 Jun 11 2010 at 8:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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I got here way too late for a serious opinion (ie, after gbaji), so here is BP spills coffee.
#65 Jun 11 2010 at 8:23 PM Rating: Good
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Of *course* Obama wants to make the most out of this situation. Do you really think he saw what happened and though "Wow, I could use this opportunity to really tank my approval ratings!"?
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publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#66 Jun 11 2010 at 8:27 PM Rating: Good
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Atomicflea wrote:
I got here way too late for a serious opinion (ie, after gbaji), so here is BP spills coffee.

Haha. Loved it.
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publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#67 Jun 11 2010 at 9:42 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
What happened to "the buck stops here"? Apparently, Obama didn't get that memo. He seems to think that it's sufficient to just blame BP for what has and is happening, but that's not going to wash.
It's interesting that you say this seeing as he's taken personal responsibility for not doing more to clean up safety violations prior to this, and to oversee the stoppage and the cleanup in the future.

Honestly reading your post, you seem to want some nebulous activity, but it's so unclear that it's not terribly helpful. You go the military should have gone in there with cameras, but then you say they shouldn't duplicate work, so they shouldn't go in there.

You want our experts to come up with solutions, but then admit that the people BP got to try and fix this have the expertise, but we should somehow be yelling at them to be smarter or something.

It's fairly clear that there has been pretty much constant communication, and the fact that the leak hasn't been fixed isn't because people haven't been trying. Sure for PR purposes Obama could have set up some kind of committee right away to be a "public effort" that people could see, but I thought you tried to not get caught up in the populous need for visual and immediate gratification.
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#68 Jun 11 2010 at 10:06 PM Rating: Good
gbaji wrote:
The guy who tries and fails will at least be given credit for trying berated for failing.
This is how present-day politics works.
#69 Jun 12 2010 at 10:27 AM Rating: Excellent
gbaji wrote:
He's the guy who's responsible for stopping the leak. Not BP. The sooner he figures that out, the better off we'll all be.


No, he's not. BP is. It's BP's mess, BP has to stop it. And lucky for us, they have the means to do so. Since, you know, this is their business, not the US governments.

He's the guy who's responsible for helping out the people who have been the most negatively affected once this is over and getting the shores cleaned up and ready to be used again.
#70 Jun 12 2010 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
Conservatives are all for keeping the US government out of business, until the business is suddenly in trouble, then it's the government's responsibility to step in and fix their mistakes.

Same way that conservatives are all for keeping the government out of the personal business of individuals, until it comes to abortions, then the government is supposed to do everything they can to interfere with the rights of women.

And the way conservatives are all for the Constitution, except the teensy part about separation of church and state.

Edited, Jun 12th 2010 12:34pm by catwho
#71 Jun 12 2010 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
Conservatives are all for keeping the US government out of business, until the business is suddenly in trouble, then it's the government's responsibility to step in and fix their mistakes.


But they also think we should reduce the regulation & keep drilling while more oil leaks into the gulf (Who cares if the regulations we did have failed? Less government regulations on business!). I mean, there's a lot of money in oil, so we should keep getting more. Who cares if we're indebted to the Saudis & that burning it pollutes the atmosphere? People are losing money with the moratorium on offshore drilling!
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#72 Jun 12 2010 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
Conservatives are all for keeping the US government out of business, until the business is suddenly in trouble, then it's the government's responsibility to step in and fix their mistakes.
Cheap shots aside, There's nothing disingenuous with wanting small government that can still respond to emergencies.
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#73 Jun 12 2010 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
catwho wrote:
Conservatives are all for keeping the US government out of business, until the business is suddenly in trouble, then it's the government's responsibility to step in and fix their mistakes.
Cheap shots aside, There's nothing disingenuous with wanting small government that can still respond to emergencies.

But there is something disingenuous when regulating to prevent said emergency would have been 1000x more effective than trying to fix it afterwards. In this case, it's also the responsible thing to do for the entire planet, not just our country.

#74 Jun 14 2010 at 1:51 PM Rating: Decent
#75 Jun 14 2010 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah but Kevin Costner is involved so its doomed to fail.
#76 Jun 14 2010 at 7:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Debalic wrote:
Of *course* Obama wants to make the most out of this situation. Do you really think he saw what happened and though "Wow, I could use this opportunity to really tank my approval ratings!"?


No. I think Obama and his senior staff all thought "Wow. This is just what we needed to focus negativity away from us and onto Republicans!". And they proceeded to run in 15 different directions stating up focus groups and mapping out strategies on how to use the spill to help gain support from their environmental base, and to help move forward with their green jobs initiatives, and how to spin it to help them stave off GOP victories in November. Hell, I can imagine that a couple weeks after the spill, they're in some meeting hashing out lists of quotes from Republicans saying "Drill baby Drill" and then someone asked "um... So who's got lead on working to stop the leak?", and the room went silent. Then everyone stood around saying "I thought you were going to deal with that?...".


That's basically what this looks like. A bunch of far left liberals who know how to capitalize on a disaster, but not how to deal with it while it's occurring. It honestly seems like they just figured someone else would solve the problem, so all they really had to do was handle the political side of things. But that's what you get when you fill your staff with people from activist backgrounds. Not surprising really...


But to answer your question: No. He assumed that BP would be able to just fix the leak within a week or two, so he focused the White House's attention on what to do after the disaster was over. I don't think it occurred to him that this might not happen, and that 50+ days later we'd still be looking at 24 hours of undersea footage of oil spewing into the Gulf. And now he's scrambling to figure out how to make it look like they were actively working with BP to fix the leak from day one, when it's abundantly clear that they weren't.
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More words please
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