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Bad Astronomer Takes on "Christian Nation"Follow

#1 Jun 08 2010 at 4:44 PM Rating: Excellent
A lot of my fellow Asylumites also appreciate Phil Plait, who writes the blog Bad Astronomy. (He's actually a very good astronomer and used to work for NASA - his blog started as a way of highlighting other people's bad astronomy, and evolved to include bad science of all stripes.)

He has, however, gotten increasingly more political over the last year, and today's blog post is a big FU you anyone that claims that the US is a Christian nation "founded on the Ten Commandments."

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/06/08/are-the-ten-commandments-really-the-basis-for-our-laws/#more-16925

Phil Plait wrote:
I was thinking about this recently. People seem to accept that our laws are based on the morals of the Old Testament laid out in the Commandments, but as a proper skeptic, I decided to take a look myself. Why not go over the Commandments, said I to myself, and compare them to our actual laws, as well as the Constitution, the legal document framed by the Founding Fathers, and upon which our laws are actually based?


He compares each commandment to the Constitution, or if the commandment in question isn't mentioned in the Constitution, finds an appropriately related state law (as is the case for the Blue Laws.)

The result is that not even half of the Commandments are reflected by the Constitution, and some are even expressly forbidden by it. Zing!
#2 Jun 08 2010 at 5:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Technically, that would preclude the US from being a "Jewish nation", not a Christian one.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#3 Jun 08 2010 at 5:04 PM Rating: Good
Later on in the blog entry he points out that a lot of the "Christian nation" politicians summarily ignore everything JC said and taught.
#4 Jun 08 2010 at 6:47 PM Rating: Decent
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This is a very interesting blog. Even just the links he has that mostly speak about Intelligent Design/creationism under 9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour have kept me interested and laughing. The more I read, the more I realize that ID is one of the most ridiculous notions ever.
#5 Jun 08 2010 at 7:43 PM Rating: Decent
Seems the Asylum is becoming Bad Astronomy RSS Proxy v1.0.
#6 Jun 08 2010 at 10:49 PM Rating: Good
I like Phil Plait, but don't read his blogs for his "skeptic" related posts.

While I mostly agree with his views, like Dawkins, he often comes across as a douchebag when espousing those views.
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#7 Jun 09 2010 at 12:57 AM Rating: Good
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Omegavegeta wrote:
I like Phil Plait, but don't read his blogs for his "skeptic" related posts.

While I mostly agree with his views, like Dawkins, he often comes across as a douchebag when espousing those views.
I'm a particular fan of the "kiss my ***" method they use. (Moreso Plait than Dawkins... Dawkins was a revolutionary thinker when he wrote Ancestor's Tale and The Selfish Gene, but I think he's got himself stuck, if that makes sense) Science shouldn't be on the defense to superstition. As long as it doesn't turn into pure ad hominem style attacks, I say it's fair game.
#8 Jun 09 2010 at 6:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Technically, that would preclude the US from being a "Jewish nation", not a Christian one.



You almost never see the Beatitudes chiseled into a courthouse wall, though.

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#9 Jun 09 2010 at 7:07 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
Science shouldn't be on the defense to superstition.


While I agree whole heartily, I honestly think it's "beneath" scientists of Dawkins' & Plait's caliber to even bother responding to religious criticisms. They should leave the theology debate to the theologians & carry on with their pursuit of sciences.

Anyone who refuses to believe in science because of their religion is lost anyways. So why bother?
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#10 Jun 09 2010 at 8:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Omegavegeta wrote:
Quote:
Science shouldn't be on the defense to superstition.


While I agree whole heartily, I honestly think it's "beneath" scientists of Dawkins' & Plait's caliber to even bother responding to religious criticisms. They should leave the theology debate to the theologians & carry on with their pursuit of sciences.

Anyone who refuses to believe in science because of their religion is lost anyways. So why bother?


Because while there is a subset of people who are just too fUcking scared to think or too dim to understand, there's also a sizable subset of people who believe the superstition - or who believe that religion and science are incompatible - because it's what they've been taught. Most of that subset can be educated.

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#11 Jun 09 2010 at 8:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
Because while there is a subset of people who are just too fUcking scared to think or too dim to understand, there's also a sizable subset of people who believe the superstition - or who believe that religion and science are incompatible - because it's what they've been taught. Most of that subset can be educated.

And unfortunately, the truth is usually complex while being wrong is very, very easy. To a person with a casual understanding/interest in a topic, something "obviously" wrong can sound plausible. Tell the average person that X many microns of dust land on the moon each year so there should have been 12' of dust that the lunar lander would have sunk into and they probably (A) Don't know enough to refute the claim and (B) Figure that if you're saying how many microns of dust land, you must know better than they do.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#12 Jun 09 2010 at 8:53 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
While I agree whole heartily, I honestly think it's "beneath" scientists of Dawkins' & Plait's caliber to even bother responding to religious criticisms. They should leave the theology debate to the theologians & carry on with their pursuit of sciences.


Usually, Plait only bothers going on the attack when its religion that confronts science first, and that in the process, distorts the science or falsifies it. His usual targets are secular in nature though - antivaxers, climate change deniers, anti-sex-ed, etc. He only mocks the people who see images of the Virgin Mary on the side of their rotting bananas.

Edited, Jun 9th 2010 10:54am by catwho
#13 Jun 09 2010 at 9:03 AM Rating: Good
Omegavegeta wrote:
Quote:
Science shouldn't be on the defense to superstition.


While I agree whole heartily, I honestly think it's "beneath" scientists of Dawkins' & Plait's caliber to even bother responding to religious criticisms. They should leave the theology debate to the theologians & carry on with their pursuit of sciences.

Anyone who refuses to believe in science because of their religion is lost anyways. So why bother?


I think it's less about defense against idiots and more about putting the correct information out there in a not so subtle way that gets through to those same idiots. Silence is ineffective as a teaching tool.
#14 Jun 09 2010 at 10:36 AM Rating: Excellent
My argument is that the sciences are better supported with facts & evidence as opposed to talking down to people and/or mocking them. Plait certainly isn't as bad as Dawkins, but again, I've never read Bad Astronomy because I care about Plait's thoughts on antivaxers or sex ed. As an astronomer, he's more qualified to talk about climate change, but certainly not an expert.

Samira wrote:

there's also a sizable subset of people who believe the superstition - or who believe that religion and science are incompatible - because it's what they've been taught. Most of that subset can be educated.


I was raised Catholic & had the same priest, Father Joe, right through from my Baptism through Confirmation. In my psychology class my senior year, various members of the local churches (Protestant, Baptist, & Catholic priests or ministers) all came to my class to speak about Theology. My question, of course, was how do you reconcile the teachings of the bible with the overwhelming evidence against creationism?

The Protestant Minister said that the bible isn't always meant to be taken literally.

The Baptist Minister answered that his faith in god provided him all the answers he needed.

Father Joe said he that if you go back to before the Big Bang, something beyond our understanding is what caused it (Which is still true today). Since he believed that "God" had a hand in it, science didn't disproved his faith at all but enhanced it with each new discovery.

There was an audible gasp from most of the Baptist kids & their minister, a couple of the Protestants (The Minister merely nodded), & a few of the Catholic kids. A few of the others, however, got to thinking.

Everyone should be educated with facts & evidence as opposed to dismissing their beliefs outright. Remember, most of your subset believes things are a certain way not because of true physical evidence, but because of faith. What you've got to do is SHOW them the facts & evidence then hope they'll either believe it outright, or be able to reconcile the new information they've received with their spiritual beliefs.

Edited, Jun 9th 2010 12:38pm by Omegavegeta
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#15 Jun 09 2010 at 10:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Omegavegeta wrote:
My argument is that the sciences are better supported with facts & evidence as opposed to talking down to people and/or mocking them.

That I can agree with. If you want to teach a Six Day Creationist about evolution, there's better ways to do it than putting them on the defensive by calling them an idiot.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#16 Jun 09 2010 at 10:51 AM Rating: Excellent
Jophiel wrote:
If you want to teach a Six Day Creationist about evolution, there's better ways to do it than putting them on the defensive by calling them an idiot.

BLASPHEMY!

Blasphemy, blas for you, blas for everybody...
#17 Jun 09 2010 at 11:15 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
If you want to teach a Six Day Creationist about evolution, there's better ways to do it than putting them on the defensive by calling them an idiot.


Ya, get them to read or watch A Brief History of Time.

Stephen Hawking wrote:
The idea that God might want to change His mind is an example of the fallacy, pointed out St. Augustine, of imagining God as a being existing in time. Time is a property only of the universe that God created. Presumably, God knew what He intended when He set it up.


If nothing existed before the Big Bang (Not even the four dimensions of time & space), then Hawking's reasoning is that "God" exists outside of time & space. Thus, while He may have set it in motion, He doesn't exist within it or effect it.

Hawking wrote:
These laws (of physics) may have originally been decreed by God, but it appears that He has since left the universe to evolve according to them and does not now intervene in it
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#18 Jun 09 2010 at 5:09 PM Rating: Decent
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meh

Edited, Jun 9th 2010 7:10pm by NephthysWanderer
#19 Jun 09 2010 at 5:10 PM Rating: Good
NephthysWanderer wrote:
Quote:
People seem to accept that our laws are based on the morals of the Old Testament laid out in the Commandments


People who?

To deny that Christianity didn't have a major impact on American history and values is ridiculous. To refute a claim that "the constitutionz and teh ten commandments are the same" and then not says who said it or quote anyone that argues for it is retarded. But bravo for proving them wrong!

What if these people said "the laws of our country borrow from the morals found in the Ten Commandments."
What a waste of time.


That's America for you.
#20 Jun 09 2010 at 5:12 PM Rating: Decent
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I removed my comments because he was obviously addressing specific comments that he didn't cite in this article, but he did in others that I hadn't bothered clicking on.
#21 Jun 09 2010 at 7:35 PM Rating: Default
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NephthysWanderer wrote:
I removed my comments because he was obviously addressing specific comments that he didn't cite in this article, but he did in others that I hadn't bothered clicking on.


/shrug

My response to the link was pretty much the same as your's. Regardless of the specific words used, when most people talk about the US being "Christian nation", or our laws being "based on the 10 commandments", they aren't really arguing that our laws exactly duplicate the 10 commandments. His counterargument is kinda like someone insisting that since Apocalypse Now has helicopters and explosions and is set in Viet Nam, that it can't be "based on Heart of Darkness".

It's bad logic, not just bad astronomy...
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#22 Jun 09 2010 at 9:52 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
His counterargument is kinda like someone insisting that since Apocalypse Now has helicopters and explosions and is set in Viet Nam, that it can't be "based on Heart of Darkness".

It's more like saying that since Apocalypse Now shares next to no underlying themes with, say, Die Hard, and has only superficial similarities, that one isn't based on the other.
#23 Jun 09 2010 at 9:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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What mojito said.



yes, I know.
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