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#152 Jun 08 2010 at 2:24 PM Rating: Decent
Cat,

Quote:
all of whom were men of the Enlightenment and firm believers in science.


And on these grounds alone they wouldn't adhere to the evolutionist theories. Do you know the difference between a proof and a theory? What am I asking, of course you don't.

I'm not discounting evolution but by the same token i'm not going to discount the very real possibility that evolution as we know it is nothing more than govn propaganda used to devalue the worth of humanity as a species. A true scientific mind would be skeptical of all data and not simply pick and choose which data most suits their argument.

Quote:
kids in college learn to debunk it in Biology


Kids in college are also taught to be good little liberal commies so is it any surprise they would be taught how to refute something that attacks the very essence of liberal ideology.

#153 Jun 08 2010 at 2:35 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
And on these grounds alone they wouldn't adhere to the evolutionist theories. Do you know the difference between a proof and a theory? What am I asking, of course you don't.


I'm afraid that it's you that doesn't know the difference.

A law is a description of a phenomenon.
A theory is an explanation for a phenomenon.
A proof is a logically sound progression from a set of axioms (that may or may not be true, and good luck showing which is the case).

No one of these is, in reality, more valid than the others. They are all different things, rather than a progression of respectability.
#154 Jun 08 2010 at 2:50 PM Rating: Decent
Kavekk the Ludicrous wrote:
I'm afraid that it's you that doesn't know the difference.

A law is a description of a phenomenon.
A theory is an explanation for a phenomenon.
A proof is a logically sound progression from a set of axioms (that may or may not be true, and good luck showing which is the case).

No one of these is, in reality, more valid than the others. They are all different things, rather than a progression of respectability.

I'm afraid everyone knows your stupid when you post.

A law is an analytic statement, usually with an empirically determined constant.
A theory is a coherent statement or set of statements that attempts to explain observed phenomena.

In terms of certainty, one is most definitely more valid than the other.
#155 Jun 08 2010 at 2:59 PM Rating: Decent
Liberals make me Smiley: laugh
#156 Jun 08 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Excellent
Do you have to be stupid, ugly and ignorant?

National Academy of Science wrote:
Is Evolution a fact or a theory?
The theory of evolution explains how life on earth has changed. In scientific terms, "theory" does not mean "guess" or "hunch" as it does in everyday usage. Scientific theories are explanations of natural phenomena built up logically from testable observations and hypotheses. Biological evolution is the best scientific explanation we have for the enormous range of observations about the living world. Scientists most often use the word "fact" to describe an observation. But scientists can also use fact to mean something that has been tested or observed so many times that there is no longer a compelling reason to keep testing or looking for examples. The occurrence of evolution in this sense is a fact. Scientists no longer question whether descent with modification occurred because the evidence supporting the idea is so strong.

Why isn't evolution called a law?
Laws are generalizations that describe phenomena, whereas theories explain phenomena. For example, the laws of thermodynamics describe what will happen under certain circumstances; thermodynamics theories explain why these events occur. Laws, like facts and theories, can change with better data. But theories do not develop into laws with the accumulation of evidence. Rather, theories are the goal of science.


Look here.

Or here.
#157 Jun 08 2010 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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His Excellency MoebiusLord wrote:
In terms of certainty, one is most definitely more valid than the other.

No. They aren't statements in the same dimension. It's strange how you were able to give a more accurate definition for the two words than Kavekk yet have less of an understanding of what those definitions mean.
#158 Jun 08 2010 at 3:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Laws don't explain macro-events, theories do. Since the events they explain can't be replicated, theories by their nature can not be proven. However, they can certainly reach the point of being far more rational than any other explanations and contain millions of data points gained through observation of smaller events.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#159 Jun 08 2010 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
Allegory wrote:
His Excellency MoebiusLord wrote:
In terms of certainty, one is most definitely more valid than the other.

No. They aren't statements in the same dimension. It's strange how you were able to give a more accurate definition for the two words than Kavekk yet have less of an understanding of what those definitions mean.


I was trying to dumb it down as much as possible for Varrus' sake.
#160 Jun 08 2010 at 3:12 PM Rating: Excellent
@#%^
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15,953 posts
Jophiel wrote:
Laws don't explain macro-events, theories do. Since the events they explain can't be replicated, theories by their nature can not be proven. However, they can certainly reach the point of being far more rational than any other explanations and contain millions of data points gained through observation of smaller events.


What if the smaller events were strategically placed there by God to test our faith?
____________________________
"I have lost my way
But I hear a tale
About a heaven in Alberta
Where they've got all hell for a basement"

#161 Jun 08 2010 at 3:15 PM Rating: Good
Iamadam the Prohpet wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Laws don't explain macro-events, theories do. Since the events they explain can't be replicated, theories by their nature can not be proven. However, they can certainly reach the point of being far more rational than any other explanations and contain millions of data points gained through observation of smaller events.


What if the smaller events were strategically placed there by God to test our faith?


Just like the fossils!
#162 Jun 08 2010 at 3:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kavekk the Ludicrous wrote:
Iamadam the Prohpet wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Laws don't explain macro-events, theories do. Since the events they explain can't be replicated, theories by their nature can not be proven. However, they can certainly reach the point of being far more rational than any other explanations and contain millions of data points gained through observation of smaller events.


What if the smaller events were strategically placed there by God to test our faith?


Just like the fossils!


Nobby was placed on Earth to test our faith in God?
____________________________
"I have lost my way
But I hear a tale
About a heaven in Alberta
Where they've got all hell for a basement"

#163 Jun 08 2010 at 3:18 PM Rating: Good
Iamadam the Prohpet wrote:
Kavekk the Ludicrous wrote:
Iamadam the Prohpet wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Laws don't explain macro-events, theories do. Since the events they explain can't be replicated, theories by their nature can not be proven. However, they can certainly reach the point of being far more rational than any other explanations and contain millions of data points gained through observation of smaller events.


What if the smaller events were strategically placed there by God to test our faith?


Just like the fossils!


Nobby was placed on Earth to test our faith in God?


I certainly find him trying.
#164 Jun 08 2010 at 3:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Kavekk the Ludicrous wrote:
I was trying to dumb it down as much as possible for Varrus' sake.

After many discussion with Anna I've realized that when it comes to language some people speak through connotation and some people speak technically. This doesn't reflect intelligence, as Anna clearly is smart enough to get her masters and is heading towards a Ph.D, but she seems to be very clearly in the connotative speaking variety from my experiences.

I think that aside from creating communication problems, that there are some ideas that can only be expressed either technically or connotatively, and that it is fairly impossible to hold a discussion with a person strongly polarized around one disposition about an idea that is largely limited to the other.
#165 Jun 08 2010 at 3:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's impossible to hold a useful discussion with Varus via hand puppets. This is all just written *************
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#166 Jun 08 2010 at 3:31 PM Rating: Good
[quote=Jophiel]It's impossible to hold a useful discussion with Varus via hand puppets. This is all just written *********************

Why hello there, Pensive.
#167 Jun 08 2010 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
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His Excellency MoebiusLord wrote:
Iamadam the Prohpet wrote:
Assassin Nadenu wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Assassin Nadenu wrote:
Ok, ok... no abortion debate PLEASE. Smiley: facepalm

Global warming debate okay with you?


How about the global anti-gay abortion of marriage warming debate.


If a straight marriage is getting colder then it needs to be aborted?

Where's your proof that killing babies saves marriages?


Only the cold, gay babies. Sheesh.
#168 Jun 08 2010 at 4:41 PM Rating: Decent
Kavek,

Quote:
But scientists can also use fact to mean something that has been tested or observed so many times that there is no longer a compelling reason to keep testing or looking for examples. The occurrence of evolution in this sense is a fact.


and this is where the argument breaks down. Evolutionist, as put forth by liberal academia, have not been able to to either test or replicate this theory. All they're saying is we can't test it or prove it but we've studied it a whole lot and our best GUESS is that it occurs. I don't expect you to understand the nuances in this.


Jophed,

Quote:
Since the events they explain can't be replicated, theories by their nature can not be proven. However, they can certainly reach the point of being far more rational than any other explanations and contain millions of data points gained through observation of smaller events.


Which is perfectly fine as long as you're not ignoring certain data because it doesn't fit into your theoretical model. Evolutionist simply ignore data that doesn't agree with their assumptions.



Quote:
Epigenetics is the most vivid reason why the popular understanding of evolution might need revising, but it's not the only one. We've learned that huge proportions of the human genome consist of viruses, or virus-like materials, raising the notion that they got there through infection – meaning that natural selection acts not just on random mutations, but on new stuff that's introduced from elsewhere. Relatedly, there is growing evidence, at the level of microbes, of genes being transferred not just vertically, from ancestors to parents to offspring, but also horizontally, between organisms. The researchers Carl Woese and Nigel Goldenfield conclude that, on average, a bacterium may have obtained 10% of its genes from other organisms in its environment.


Quote:
The whole point of Darwinian evolution is that it has no mind, no intelligence. But to "select for" certain traits – as opposed to just "selecting" them by not having them die out – wouldn't natural selection have to have some kind of mind? It might be obvious to you that being the same colour as your environment is more important than being white, if you're a polar bear, but that's because you just ran a thought-experiment about a hypothetical situation involving orange snow. Evolution can't run thought experiments, because it can't think. "Darwin has a theory that centrally turns on the notion of 'selection-for'," says Fodor. "And yet he can't give an account – nobody could give an account – of how natural selection could distinguish between correlated traits. He waffles."



Read the article and try and put aside your ingrained pre-conceived notions about evolution and you might learn something.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/mar/19/evolution-darwin-natural-selection-genes-wrong







Edited, Jun 8th 2010 6:42pm by knoxxsouthy
#169 Jun 08 2010 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
Except it HAS been tested, and verified, over and over and over again, and morons like you who can't reach the scientific abstracts refuse to believe it.

Here's a nice example, in dumbed down Wiki language: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution
#170 Jun 08 2010 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
Yet Varus' only "proof" is faith in creationism... very scientific.
#171 Jun 08 2010 at 5:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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knoxxsouthy wrote:
Quote:
Epigenetics is the most vivid reason why the popular understanding of evolution might need revising, but it's not the only one. We've learned that huge proportions of the human genome consist of viruses, or virus-like materials, raising the notion that they got there through infection – meaning that natural selection acts not just on random mutations, but on new stuff that's introduced from elsewhere.

This is nothing new. Researchers have known about this for years and years. It also hasn't changed anyone's perspective on things as the two factors co-exist without issue. Now I know this is a published scientific paper and not a column in a newspaper but try to read and follow along. The epigenetic factors are allowing suppressed genetic traits to manifest, not building new traits out of thin air. The new research suggests that a certain percentage of our DNA (the researchers said 8%, not a "huge proportion") has been introduced by viruses. This again doesn't do anything to shake the foundations of evolutionary science, it only adds to them. Such viruses would be just one more factor in how our genetic structure changes over time.

Your second quote is just knocking down the strawman built earlier:
Quote:
Step two: natural selection, according to its theorists, is a force that "selects for" certain traits.

No, it doesn't. Natural selection simply states that whatever organism is best suited to fill an ecological niche will be the one to fill the niche. The author acts as though this is some mind blowing refutation of natural selection (and quote Ann Coulter of all people) but their acting as though this is revolutionary just shows how little they understand it.

Edited, Jun 8th 2010 6:44pm by Jophiel
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#172 Jun 08 2010 at 5:34 PM Rating: Excellent
It's odd. Here I would have pinned Varrus as a social Darwinist - "All those unemployed people living off govt welfare are unfit for the workplace, so they should just die off rather than waste my taxpayer dollars."

While he accepts (and even promotes) social Darwinism, he refuses to accept the underlying basis for it.
#173 Jun 08 2010 at 5:50 PM Rating: Good
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15,952 posts
knoxxsouthy wrote:
Cat,

Quote:
all of whom were men of the Enlightenment and firm believers in science.


And on these grounds alone they wouldn't adhere to the evolutionist theories. Do you know the difference between a proof and a theory? What am I asking, of course you don't.

What you are after there is the difference between a proof and a hypothesis.

In scientific terms a one-off fact is a fact, and a whole bunch of lots of facts that hang together and support the existance of each other is a "theory".

A "hypothesis" is an idea that has been tossed out there as something to think about, and has neither been proved nor disproved.

Edited, Jun 8th 2010 7:52pm by Aripyanfar
#174 Jun 08 2010 at 5:55 PM Rating: Good
A "proof", as a noun, is really a term used for geometry anyway. The closest you can get to a biological "proof" in that sense would maybe be mitochondrial molecular clocks.
#175 Jun 08 2010 at 6:03 PM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
A "proof", as a noun, is really a term used for geometry anyway.

Used in geometry. It's the difference between "handcuffs are used for sex," and "handcuffs are used in sex."
#176 Jun 08 2010 at 6:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Allegory wrote:
It's the difference between "handcuffs are used for sex," and "handcuffs are used in sex."

It can be both if you buy them dinner first.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
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