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Well, since you seem to be agreeing with the causes, then wouldn't it make more sense to just address that rather then creating an illegal witch hunt?
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You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
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Xarus,
We should crack down on both. It's absurd to say that the actual people who are breaking the law don't need to pay the penalty for breaking the law.
Quote:
This is a problem where we should crack down on the employers not the illegal immigrants.
We should crack down on both. It's absurd to say that the actual people who are breaking the law don't need to pay the penalty for breaking the law.
The problem with trying to crack down on the illegals themselves is it creates a witch hunt that alienates and isolates people of the same ethnicity who are legal, and it is incredibly inefficient, yet this seems to be the only side of the solution that is ever presented.
It is of course because the people involved have too much invested in the cheap labour to ever actually make any real changes in that area.
Edited, May 26th 2010 10:38am by Xsarus
It is of course because the people involved have too much invested in the cheap labour to ever actually make any real changes in that area.
Edited, May 26th 2010 10:38am by Xsarus
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For my purposes, off the top of my head any comprehensive plan would have to include
1.A path to citizenship (with whatever applicable fines and hoops) for those who were seeking to be U.S. citizens.
Some folks have been here over 10,15, 20 years illegally, some were brought here in total ignorance by their parents and are, for all intents and purposes, Americans with a strong cultural heritage that just want to feel free to travel without losing everything they have ever known. If they are willing and able to comply with penalties, they should be allowed an opportunity to contribute to our treasury and culture in a legal way.
2. A system designed to track migrant workers and a way to dock their pay for a portion of income tax for the time they worked here.
As previously stated, some folks don't want to live and pledge allegiance to the U.S., they just want to be able to work here on a temporary/seasonal basis. Why not allow them to do so, pay them at a slightly lower rate than citizens, and tax that income?
3. Tighter borders that didn't give Central and North American countries an unfair immigration advantage over others.
I have nothing against increased border security. It's a pet peeve of mine that I have relatives that have waited over 20 years for the lottery to allow them a legal chance to immigrate (fat chance, if you win the lottery, no guarantee that your husband and children will as well) and people to the North can just pay a fee and be smuggled in. Now I realize that it's a hard smuggle with a high death rate, but it's an opportunity that someone in Tierra del Fuego's not likely to get. This of course leads to
4. A review and remodel of the current quota system.
For reasons already stated... aaaand
5. Tighter penalties for employers who dodge, avoid or scam this system.
1.A path to citizenship (with whatever applicable fines and hoops) for those who were seeking to be U.S. citizens.
Some folks have been here over 10,15, 20 years illegally, some were brought here in total ignorance by their parents and are, for all intents and purposes, Americans with a strong cultural heritage that just want to feel free to travel without losing everything they have ever known. If they are willing and able to comply with penalties, they should be allowed an opportunity to contribute to our treasury and culture in a legal way.
2. A system designed to track migrant workers and a way to dock their pay for a portion of income tax for the time they worked here.
As previously stated, some folks don't want to live and pledge allegiance to the U.S., they just want to be able to work here on a temporary/seasonal basis. Why not allow them to do so, pay them at a slightly lower rate than citizens, and tax that income?
3. Tighter borders that didn't give Central and North American countries an unfair immigration advantage over others.
I have nothing against increased border security. It's a pet peeve of mine that I have relatives that have waited over 20 years for the lottery to allow them a legal chance to immigrate (fat chance, if you win the lottery, no guarantee that your husband and children will as well) and people to the North can just pay a fee and be smuggled in. Now I realize that it's a hard smuggle with a high death rate, but it's an opportunity that someone in Tierra del Fuego's not likely to get. This of course leads to
4. A review and remodel of the current quota system.
For reasons already stated... aaaand
5. Tighter penalties for employers who dodge, avoid or scam this system.
I remember two stories from the last time we had a bunch of debate on this. I posted both back in the day.
In the first, a landscaper in California was complaining that she was unable to find people willing to work for state prevailing wage (which started at $14/hr and scaled up to $36/hr). That was $14/hr for laborer work -- digging, planting, spreading mulch, etc. She was running ads, putting signs and all that but once someone got in a few eight hour shifts in the sun, they'd say "***** this" and quit.
In the second, a poultry plant in Georgia was raided and its illegal immigrant workers taken away. It's was hard miserable work (defeathering and cleaning chickens) and you lived on site in barracks. the plant tried getting local labor to take the work. No dice. They entered into a prison work program and had prisoners come and do the work. Shortly, the prisoners refused to participate. Eventually, they were busing down Laotian asylum seekers from Wisconsin to Georgia to do the work. They had to go thousands of miles away to find immigrants who were at the fringes of legality (they weren't here on a work visa or because of their skills, they had convinced the State Department that they were oppressed in Laos and needed to escape) to do the work originally done by Mexican immigrants.
Now both of these stories were from 2006-2007 or so, before the recession and so maybe now people are more willing to live in a dorm and clean chickens for low wages. Or maybe there's been a national shift and we're all willing to pay more for chicken today to accommodate the wage increases required to get folks to man the plant. But I think we'd benefit from a flexible visa system that recognizes that we have jobs here that are being largely filled by immigrant labor and offers a number of visas to reflect that reality, adjustable for times of domestic economic duress.
In the first, a landscaper in California was complaining that she was unable to find people willing to work for state prevailing wage (which started at $14/hr and scaled up to $36/hr). That was $14/hr for laborer work -- digging, planting, spreading mulch, etc. She was running ads, putting signs and all that but once someone got in a few eight hour shifts in the sun, they'd say "***** this" and quit.
In the second, a poultry plant in Georgia was raided and its illegal immigrant workers taken away. It's was hard miserable work (defeathering and cleaning chickens) and you lived on site in barracks. the plant tried getting local labor to take the work. No dice. They entered into a prison work program and had prisoners come and do the work. Shortly, the prisoners refused to participate. Eventually, they were busing down Laotian asylum seekers from Wisconsin to Georgia to do the work. They had to go thousands of miles away to find immigrants who were at the fringes of legality (they weren't here on a work visa or because of their skills, they had convinced the State Department that they were oppressed in Laos and needed to escape) to do the work originally done by Mexican immigrants.
Now both of these stories were from 2006-2007 or so, before the recession and so maybe now people are more willing to live in a dorm and clean chickens for low wages. Or maybe there's been a national shift and we're all willing to pay more for chicken today to accommodate the wage increases required to get folks to man the plant. But I think we'd benefit from a flexible visa system that recognizes that we have jobs here that are being largely filled by immigrant labor and offers a number of visas to reflect that reality, adjustable for times of domestic economic duress.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
I don't think we should continue to support a system in which employers can continue to hire low-payed immigrants to do ****** jobs. I don't know what can be done to prevent this, other than heavy fines for companies found to be hiring illegals or even legal immigrants to do work at dirt-cheap costs. I mean, I guess the examples Joph posted were above minimum wage, but we're talking about jobs that really require a lot of labor and filth.
knoxxsouthy wrote:
Barking,
If the law isn't enforced then what's to stop me?
Quote:
If you're willing to break the law to save a few bucks, it's your fault.
If the law isn't enforced then what's to stop me?
Integrity.
Hahahahahahahahaha.
AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
I don't think we should continue to support a system in which employers can continue to hire low-payed immigrants to do sh*tty jobs.
Be ready to pay more for chicken and spinach, I guess.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Jophiel wrote:
AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
I don't think we should continue to support a system in which employers can continue to hire low-payed immigrants to do sh*tty jobs.
Be ready to pay more for chicken and spinach, I guess.
No need to eat chicken, frogs legs are just as nice, and you don't even need illegal immigrants to pluck them.
RedPhoenixxx wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
I don't think we should continue to support a system in which employers can continue to hire low-payed immigrants to do sh*tty jobs.
Be ready to pay more for chicken and spinach, I guess.
No need to eat chicken, frogs legs are just as nice, and you don't even need illegal immigrants to pluck them.
US frogs are mostly mutants. There must be frog-farms, eh?
Aqua-culture is getting to be pretty big business here on the edge of the sea. I see little opportunity to exploit illegal workers with this type of farming, although we do see blueberry, potato and broccoli pickers migrate up here in the summer.
Alma wrote:
I lost my post
What I see are thousands upon thousands of illegals here and they do take up jobs that many of us could do and make good money. They pay no real taxes and they also burden our system with kids that are then Us citizens. We then provide them free housing, school and medical care. (Remember these are from your taxes) I've known for a fact several Illegals that were caught shipped back and were back here working within a week. One of the big factors that makes it so easy is the lack of inforcment on the laws. Some places even call themselves Illegal havens (Like Austin TX) I've had my car hit 4 times by uninsured Illegals that either drove off or when the cops arrived went from speaking english to "No Englais" and then disapear leaving me with a wrecked car. Ask any kid looking for summer work cutting grass here? They can't compete with an Illegal that is being employed by someone to cut grass.
The problems are vast and deep. We need to stem the tide and inforce the laws better. Not only for the Illegals but the people that employ them.
The problems are vast and deep. We need to stem the tide and inforce the laws better. Not only for the Illegals but the people that employ them.
Tailmon wrote:
We need to stem the tide and inforce the laws better.
Shit, if only someone had thought of this before!
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Jophed,
Maybe we would have if the Democrats would let us.
Maybe we would have if the Democrats would let us.
"Are we to assume the first part of your post is aimed strictly at Mexicans...until you qualify it at the end." --Elinda
That is in large part, Elinda, because the illegal immigrant problem lies with poor and uneducated Mexicans crossing the border to get into the United States. Note that generally Canucks don't skulk across the border to pick apples or strawberries under the cover of darkness, nor pack themselves into 18 wheelers under the watchful eyes of prepaid Coyotes (What would be the Canucks' version of a coyote be? A polar bear? A baby seal?). While there is a distinct and credible threat of Islamofacists sneaking across the Canadian border, I don't lose sleep over the prospect of icebacks slipping southward to find employment at the local meat packing plant.
Totem
That is in large part, Elinda, because the illegal immigrant problem lies with poor and uneducated Mexicans crossing the border to get into the United States. Note that generally Canucks don't skulk across the border to pick apples or strawberries under the cover of darkness, nor pack themselves into 18 wheelers under the watchful eyes of prepaid Coyotes (What would be the Canucks' version of a coyote be? A polar bear? A baby seal?). While there is a distinct and credible threat of Islamofacists sneaking across the Canadian border, I don't lose sleep over the prospect of icebacks slipping southward to find employment at the local meat packing plant.
Totem
knoxxsouthy wrote:
Maybe we would have if the Republicans had let Bush.
I agree with you 100%
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Totem wrote:
nor pack themselves into 18 wheelers under the watchful eyes of prepaid Coyotes (What would be the Canucks' version of a coyote be? A polar bear? A baby seal?).
Tare's uterus judging form the number of Canadians she's bringing into this country.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Jophed,
I get it you're still blaming W for everything. Want to take a bet that Obama is still going to be blaming the economy on W two years from now?
Edited, May 26th 2010 2:10pm by knoxxsouthy
I get it you're still blaming W for everything. Want to take a bet that Obama is still going to be blaming the economy on W two years from now?
Edited, May 26th 2010 2:10pm by knoxxsouthy
<insert joke about the need for a flashlight to find one's lost Mack truck keys and the possibility of driving out of there here>
/ducks thrown icy objects from Quebecistan
Totem
/ducks thrown icy objects from Quebecistan
Totem
knoxxsouthy wrote:
I get it you're still blaming W for everything.
Not at all. I completely supported Bush's immigration policy. Behind him 100% on it. Sadly, the Republicans were not.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
So when do we initiate Operation Get Rid of the Darkies?
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
Totes wrote:
(What would be the Canucks' version of a coyote be? A polar bear? A baby seal?)
Well-mannered, badly dressed grizzlies.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
For me, it means the process for citizenship should be streamlined. My ancestors in 1913 were granted US citizenship the second they registered at Ellis Island. They spoke no English, they had no jobs, they had no money. They asked around, and were told they wouldn't find any work or land or people like them unless they went all the way to North Dakota. So they went there.
I think that a person should be granted streamlined permission to work in the US if:
- They already have a job, even if they work here illegally
- They already pay taxes via that job (a good many of them do)
In exchange, the employer requesting legal permission for them should also file appropriate tax forms and pay them minimum wage.
But ah, you see, that is where the business owners are going to throw a fit. They can underpay illegal immigrants because they can get away with it. If an illegal immigrant is able to report his employer for violating minimum wage and not requesting permission for him or her to work, then they shouldn't immediately face deportation for being a whistle blower like they do now.
Speaking English shouldn't be a requirement. It wasn't for my ancestors.
I think that a person should be granted streamlined permission to work in the US if:
- They already have a job, even if they work here illegally
- They already pay taxes via that job (a good many of them do)
In exchange, the employer requesting legal permission for them should also file appropriate tax forms and pay them minimum wage.
But ah, you see, that is where the business owners are going to throw a fit. They can underpay illegal immigrants because they can get away with it. If an illegal immigrant is able to report his employer for violating minimum wage and not requesting permission for him or her to work, then they shouldn't immediately face deportation for being a whistle blower like they do now.
Speaking English shouldn't be a requirement. It wasn't for my ancestors.
The question I have is:
What caused the shift in American society that performing labor/service jobs is bad and/or beneath them?
Now, I haven’t lived State-side in the last 15+ years. However, back in the 1980’s, myself and the guys I went to school with all did those types of jobs. I worked construction over the summers, couple guys worked MacDonald’s/mall jobs/landscaping labor/etc. There was never a question about how ****** it was; everyone had a job. It paid for gas/food/movies/cassette tapes/train tickets/etc.
So what caused the shift?
Better yet, what do I need to prepare myself for when I move back?
What caused the shift in American society that performing labor/service jobs is bad and/or beneath them?
Now, I haven’t lived State-side in the last 15+ years. However, back in the 1980’s, myself and the guys I went to school with all did those types of jobs. I worked construction over the summers, couple guys worked MacDonald’s/mall jobs/landscaping labor/etc. There was never a question about how ****** it was; everyone had a job. It paid for gas/food/movies/cassette tapes/train tickets/etc.
So what caused the shift?
Better yet, what do I need to prepare myself for when I move back?
Jophiel wrote:
Pack your own lunch and bring nothing but Pixie Stix and Pop Rocks and get your liberty on.
Totem wrote:
I can get onboard with an expansion of our immigration numbers. However, I'd like to see an emphasis on educated immigrants who either have a "good" job (ie., one that does not involve picking vegetables or fruit, but rather in the white collar industries) or have an extended family who have the means to support them if their job prospects peter out.
This is one of those ideas that looks good on paper, but doesn't really work. The problem is that the vast majority of those who are coming across the southern border illegal are unskilled laborers. They are the poor in Mexico who are willing to risk everything in order to make 8-10 times more money picking fruit or digging trenches in the US than they can doing those jobs in Mexico.
This is why we need what was proposed a few years ago: A real guest worker visa specifically for Mexican workers. One which allows for low paid unskilled labor to come here and work legally and at numbers far far greater than what we currently legally allow. It has to have different rules than the standard work visas precisely because it has to fulfill the same economic needs which are causing the movement of illegals across the border today. Place too many restrictions on qualifications, labor types, and wages, and it wont work.
Unfortunately, the idea got attacked by both sides of our political landscape. So yeah. We're pretty much screwed until perceptions can change about this.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
gbaji wrote:
This is why we need what was proposed a few years ago: A real guest worker visa specifically for Mexican workers. One which allows for low paid unskilled labor to come here and work legally and at numbers far far greater than what we currently legally allow. It has to have different rules than the standard work visas precisely because it has to fulfill the same economic needs which are causing the movement of illegals across the border today. Place too many restrictions on qualifications, labor types, and wages, and it wont work.
Sanctioned undercutting of minimum wage laws? No thanks.
Love,
PunkFloyd
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