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#27 May 24 2010 at 8:50 PM Rating: Good
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Or keep on faffing about with the likes of Terry Pratchett of course.....


Now what's that supposed to mean, hmm?

I'd recommend reading The City & The City first, myself, partly because it's better written, partly because it doesn't suffer from the kind of anti sci-fi/fantasy prejudice seen in this very thread and partly because it's not crushingly depressing. Also, it's worth nothing Mieville is a communist - it's generally detectable but unobtrusive, but if you're right wing you probably won't enjoy Iron Council.

Edited, May 25th 2010 2:56am by Kavekk
#28 May 24 2010 at 10:01 PM Rating: Good
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Kavekk the Ludicrous wrote:
but if you're right wing you probably won't enjoy Iron Council.



I'm a vegetarian and I read, and enjoy, books featuring meat-eaters all the time.

Good effort for having heard of Mieville tho.

And Pratchett? Bit of a giggle for younger readers i s'pose, but its the literary version of pop music.

I'm not a big fan of pop music.
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#29 May 24 2010 at 10:07 PM Rating: Good
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Also, I'm reading the Black Company series by Glen Cook. Like Robert Jordan, without the 20 extra novels-worth of inanities.
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#30 May 24 2010 at 10:17 PM Rating: Good
paulsol wrote:
Kavekk the Ludicrous wrote:
but if you're right wing you probably won't enjoy Iron Council.


I'm a vegetarian and I read, and enjoy, books featuring meat-eaters all the time.

Good effort for having heard of Mieville tho.

And Pratchett? Bit of a giggle for younger readers i s'pose, but its the literary version of pop music.

I'm not a big fan of pop music.


No analogy bears close inspection, but that one's atrocious. Meat eating is incidental in those books, whereas Iron Council runs firmly on communist ideals; furthermore, as a vegetarian in a society of meat eaters it is pretty hard to be intolerant toward the practice. In contrast, commie is used as an insult in America - just think of how Gbaji froths at the mouth when he uses the word socialism.

I'm not sure what books of Pratchett's you're basing that opinion on, but I find it difficult to take seriously.
#31 May 25 2010 at 12:25 AM Rating: Decent
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I loathe Goodkind. He's so ******* preachy I want to put in for vacation, fly to wherever the **** he lives, arrange an introduction and slap his stupid, smarmy, self-righteous fat face.


<3

What would it take to get you to fly out to our wedding and give a toast? I'm reasonably sure I could crank out some mediocre capitalist rhetoric thinly veiled as pulp fantasy aimed at 12 year olds in short order if that's all it takes.

I'm reading the "Song of Fire and Ice" books, which I never got around to before this, but I'm starting to get the sense I frequently get with fantasy novels that what should have been an entertaining trilogy is turning into a laborious never ending "epic". I think I'll probably finish A Game of Swords and call it good.

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#32 May 25 2010 at 12:31 AM Rating: Decent
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As to Dune. Read the first 3 books. Maybe read God Emperor, but it's not necessary. Honestly, the rest of the Dune books are kinds like reading Tolkien's Simarillian. Great if you're really really really interested in every detail of the back and side and front stories, but you pretty much got the meat of the story already.


Does it take that long?

I got about 45 pages in and thought "oh, it's the Koran with a white Mohamed, how quaint. I bet he rescues those savages!" Crazily overrated books, and really the beginning of a lot of ******, overly long soapy crap the whole genre still hasn't totally recovered from.
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#33 May 25 2010 at 12:50 AM Rating: Good
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Kavekk the Ludicrous wrote:


I'm not sure what books of Pratchett's you're basing that opinion on, but I find it difficult to take seriously.


Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed reading Pratchets books. But since I've gotten considerably older an long in the tooth, I prefer my books (and music) to have a bit more 'challenge'.

Pratchett is to Erikson as Lady Gaga is to what I listen to nowadays.

You're right tho, that anology was crap.

Smash said :
Quote:
I'm reading the "Song of Fire and Ice" books, which I never got around to before this, but I'm starting to get the sense I frequently get with fantasy novels that what should have been an entertaining trilogy is turning into a laborious never ending "epic"



I've just started A Feast for Crows, and tho I tend to agree that it should have been a trilogy, I dont think that its because its a crap story. The characters are fantastic and the world is very well imagined. I think he's on autopilot until 2 or 3 volumes down the track, he either remembers, or dies in a massive implosion of fat, hair and silly hats. He's a cnut with a fixation on mediaevel heraldry who happens to write quite well.

His website is as repellant to look at as he is himself.


Edited, May 25th 2010 6:52am by paulsol
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#34 May 25 2010 at 1:12 AM Rating: Decent
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The characters are fantastic and the world is very well imagined


Yeah, he imagined the War of the Roses had dragons and Genghis Kahn, basically. I've enjoyed it so far, though.
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#35 May 25 2010 at 1:49 AM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
[b]
I've enjoyed it so far, though.


When you've dragged yourself spitting and gagging thru to the end of it, give Steven Eriksons Malazan series a go. Its heaps better than Martin and I would hope that even the jaded reader of 'fantasy' that you obviously are (much like I am when it comes to the genre) will be left feeling like it actually wasn't long enough.

And should you find the 10,000+ pages a waste of your time then feel free to GFY :) Its time to change genre.



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#36 May 25 2010 at 3:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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What!? Pratchett is to Erikson as Einstein is to Einstein!

Pratchett Einstein has an outwardly slapstick, inwardly bittersweet and present-day social-commentary metaphoric trio of a troll, a dwarf, and an anthropomorphism with the emotional depth of a black hole walk into a comedy club, where the enjoyment of the crowd increases the more boring the MC is. If you catch it, you catch it. If you don't, you don't. Enjoyment=energy. Boring=square

If you have a broad general knowledge, there is something to catch on most pages. If you have an in-depth knowledge of one particular field, then there will be one particular Pratchett book that has references for you on most pages. The reference will be throw-away funny, or you'll be in awe of how Pratchett has managed to twist or spin the complicated concept seamlessly into the simple narrative. One suspects his most subtly bizarre plots and characters came from a reference idea first. You can read his books on multiple levels, which is a satisfying experience in itself.

Pratchett is particularly strong on real world philosophy, (meta-physics, philosophy of morals, comparative religion) science, (quantum physics, astronomy) history, psychology, sociology, and Leonardo Da Vinci. He seems rather weak on opera.

Erikson Einstein explains E=mc2 for the layman who hasn't done any maths or science yet. He pulls out dazzling star-scapes to catch your interest in the beauty of the universe. He painstakingly goes back to the beginning of each concept, and takes you on a long explicit adventure of each strand. Of Energy, of Momentum, of Inertia, of Mass, of Gravitas, of Spacetime, of Electricity, of Magneticism, of Electromagnetism, of Light, of Quanta.

Then he brings the separate strands together in twos and threes, showing you how they interrelate. He unknits them again, and makes narrative ropes with different combinations of strands. You start to get the idea of how people/starlight step from one side of the universe to the other both in the blink of an eye, and ALSO via a long and energy draining journey at the same time. You see how what looked like different Units, ostensibly different ways of manipulating things, are all actually facets of the one thing. Even though it is all one glorious, magnificent whole in the end, you have your sneaking favourite strands and Units.

It was amazing. It was Epic. Some of it bored you, but that was necessary to appreciate the whole fantastic Universe. You are exhausted and afterglowing. You laughed, you really did. And you cried, you really had tears running down your face when The Chain of Dogs... and when The Bridgeburners...

Erikson takes 10,000 words of explicit narration where Pratchett takes 100 words of sly, veiled, obvious, in-your-face, surreal metaphors, analogies, criticisms, witticisms, homages, conversation-characterisation-plot-driven slap-stick to hit exactly the the same emotional highs and lows. You may find brevity poppy and shallow. I find well done brevity to be the condensed essence of wit. And yes, ironically I can't do brevity myself.

This is not to say that I think all Discworld books are equal. I find their value variable, but the best are outstanding. I find the same of the Malazan books too. Some are not as good as the best, and some are outstanding.

Edited, May 25th 2010 6:35am by Aripyanfar
#37 May 25 2010 at 3:48 AM Rating: Good
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Bloody hell Ari!!!

I might have to go and revisit Terry Pratchett after that...Perhaps i was too young for it or something?
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#38 May 25 2010 at 4:24 AM Rating: Good
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I was too young for Pratchett the first time I read him as a teenager. I read a "Rincewind" book first, and I loathed it. I dropped it in the middle, which is almost undone for me. Usually I drop a book within the first 10 pages, or I read the whole.

Rincewind is the opposite of a hero, so there are no warm-inner-glow kicks from vicariously living his life. You have to survive on the comedy that surrounds him as he flees everything. Ironically, once I was knowledgeable and mature enough to appreciate Pratchett, Rincewind remained my least favourite character, even if I affectionately chuckle over him and his keeper, The Luggage. At the same time I patriotically adore The Last Continent, which is a Rincewind book.

Each Pratchett is a stand-alone book. Some books also function as mini-series, following particular characters. Readers tend to have favourite character groups.

There are:

The Wizards (of Unseeen University), overlapping with the set of Rincewind books, since Rincewind is a wizard.
The Witches (of Lancre), overlapping with the set of Tiffany Aching (a witch) books, I think but I haven't gotten to the Tiffany books yet.
DEATH
Susan Sto-Helit, DEATH's grand-daughter
The City Watch.
Moist Von Lipwig.

Minor and major characters may pop up across series, without it being necessary for you to have read their backstory/mini-series. DEATH, for example is a regular. There are also quite a lot of stand-alones that are really stand-alone, having little to do with any other book.

Edited, May 25th 2010 6:33am by Aripyanfar
#39 May 25 2010 at 5:43 AM Rating: Good
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I loathe Goodkind. He's so fUCking preachy I want to put in for vacation, fly to wherever the fUCk he lives, arrange an introduction and slap his stupid, smarmy, self-righteous fat face.
Me too, and the middle books are just boring (Elinda, it's more than a trilogy)



Quote:
I absolutely loved Neal Stephenson's Baroque Cycle trilogy.
Fantastic, I agree. Read Cryptonomicon, if you haven't (it was written before Baroque, and has many of Baroque's character's decendents as characters. I just read his more recent novel, Anathem. That was pretty good too.

Currently, I'm just finishing up Janny Wurts' Wars of Light and Shadow series. It was a little hard to get into at first (probably because I accidentally started on book four¹), but turned out to be a great read.

¹ It was labeled on the cover "Alliance of Light: Book 1." But it's actually "The Wars of Light and Shadow: Book 4." Didn't realize it until I was about 100 pages in, and couldn't go to the store to get the real first one, so I just soldiered on.

Edited, May 25th 2010 7:52am by Lubriderm
#40 May 25 2010 at 6:51 AM Rating: Good
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Lubriderm the Hand wrote:
Samira wrote:
I loathe Goodkind. He's so fUCking preachy I want to put in for vacation, fly to wherever the fUCk he lives, arrange an introduction and slap his stupid, smarmy, self-righteous fat face.
Me too, and the middle books are just boring (Elinda, it's more than a trilogy)

Good to know. I'll not bother with anymore.
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#41 May 25 2010 at 6:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:

The characters are fantastic and the world is very well imagined


Yeah, he imagined the War of the Roses had dragons and Genghis Kahn, basically. I've enjoyed it so far, though.


I'm just interested in which major character gets it in the neck in each book, really. I think he's losing his nerve, though.

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#42 May 25 2010 at 6:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Fantastic, I agree. Read Cryptonomicon, if you haven't


I did, and I really liked it. I recommended it to a few other people who didn't care for it much, though.

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#43 May 25 2010 at 7:15 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
Quote:
Fantastic, I agree. Read Cryptonomicon, if you haven't


I did, and I really liked it. I recommended it to a few other people who didn't care for it much, though.


I loved Cryptonomicon. However I always feel Neal Stephenson needs 10 more pages on the end of every book, just to wrap things up so the characters can enjoy their warm inner glow, or state of rest, or reward. The books are fantastic then end very abruptly. Cryptonomicon's very last imagery is a unique and vivid scene and thus is fantastic in that way. But it kind of leaves the characters out there hanging on a rock.

Hmmm, who would like Cryptonomicon? It's been ages since I read it so I'm all hazy on the details. Maybe people who are into reading about scientists, WW2, cryptography, espionage, alternate reality, hostile accounting, civil rights for gays, bicycle rides in pine scrub, and the very odd explosion.

Edited, May 25th 2010 9:24am by Aripyanfar
#44 May 25 2010 at 8:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:
What would it take to get you to fly out to our wedding and give a toast? I'm reasonably sure I could crank out some mediocre capitalist rhetoric thinly veiled as pulp fantasy aimed at 12 year olds in short order if that's all it takes.


You want me to insult you at your wedding? Is that like a turn-on for you?

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#45 May 25 2010 at 9:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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I knew Miéville sounded familiar. I read King Rat years ago, then picked up Perdido Street Station and... I don't remember much about it. Maybe I'll dig it out and try again.

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#46 May 25 2010 at 9:39 AM Rating: Good
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I'm reading Walden for my classics book club and I'm finding it tedious.
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#47 May 25 2010 at 9:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Tare wrote:
I'm reading Walden for my classics book club and I'm finding it tedious.


Thoreau is more fun to read about, than to read.

My favorite Thoreau vignette is when he was in jail for refusing to pay his taxes until slavery was abolished. Ralph Waldo Emerson came to see him in jail, and chided him, "What are you doing in there, David?" To which Thoreau supposedly answered, "The better question is, what are you doing out there, Waldo?"

A little too smug about his high ideals, that man.

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#48 May 25 2010 at 10:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elizabeth moon came out with a new Pakseneron novel

New as in #4 or has she been milling them out and I just didn't know?

I liked the original trilogy, even if #2 read more like an AD&D adventure than anything else. The first Gird book was pretty good although the second didn't impress me. This is all through the filter of fifteen years or so though.
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#49 May 25 2010 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not familiar with the availibity of these series in the states, but i would definately recommend Katherine Kerr's Deverry books, James Clemens Banned and Banished series and Peter F Hamilton's Night's dawn trilogy.
#50 May 25 2010 at 10:06 AM Rating: Good
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Aripyanfar wrote:
However I always feel Neal Stephenson needs 10 more pages on the end of every book, just to wrap things up so the characters can enjoy their warm inner glow, or state of rest, or reward.
lol, I know what you mean, although for the Stephenson books I've read I quite enjoyed the sudden end.
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#51 May 25 2010 at 10:16 AM Rating: Good
The last sci-fi I read was Pratchett, which I thoroughly enjoyed, but that was a while back.

I'm currently reading Kafka on the Shore by Murakami, and loving every page of it. It's a bit surreal, and kinda reminds me of a modern Japanese Gabriel Garcia Marquez. Highly recommended.

Other recent books I've read and really enjoyed:

The Open Veins of Latin America, fascinating account of a centuries-long and ongoing rape.

Naif. Super. by Erland Loe. Really quick and easy read from a fellow list-addict.
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