Politicians R DumbFollow

Jophed,

Is this is where you convince us that everyone does it so it's not really a big deal?

Haven't looked at the Kirk stuff specifically, but I think it's relevant whether or not the information is something written up in a bio by their staff, or something repeated and recounted by the candidate himself. Not saying Kirk didn't lie here, just pointing out an aspect to this.

And the Brewer thing I place in the same category as Clinton claiming she was named after the mountain climber, or Obama talking about his grandfather liberating Auschwitz. People grow up with stories about their parents and grandparents and don't have any reason to assume they're not true or have been embellished over the years as they were passed down though the family. My dad served during the Korean conflict, but I couldn't tell you if he was ever in the country or not or what he did specifically. I've been told he "fought in Korea" many times though, but do I know that he was actually ever under fire anywhere? Nope. For all I actually know, he never got off a base here in San Diego and spent the whole time attending USO dances with his future wife.

Edited, Jun 2nd 2010 1:55pm by gbaji

Jophed,



Why? Obama lied his as* off to get elected and the Dems and Independents ate it up.

Huh? He died when she said he died. When she was 11. She was born in 1944. She wasn't confused at all about when he died, and she quite clearly knew that he didn't die "during the war". Is it possible that the lung disease he died of was a result of his handling of munitions? She said he died "as a result of that", not that he died in Germany while fighting *****. And if you were an 11 year old girl knowing your father had died because he worked in an unsafe environment building weapons to help with the war, you'd view it that way too.

No. It means that when people are speaking instead of writing, they sometimes phrase things awkwardly, and when transcripts of those statements are later read it sounds like they said something different than what they really meant to say. You're also inserting a "while" into the sentence which isn't present in the original. That does change the meaning a bit. She was trying to express the fact that her father died as a result of his war efforts against the *****. I'll again point out that at the time, everyone was "fighting" WW2 in a way that we don't do in wars today, so the phraseology is not necessarily incorrect. She's expressing some pride in her fathers actions, and I don't blame her for that.


The core point here, that she takes offense at people calling her "Hitler's daughter" given why her father died, is perfectly valid. Poorly stated perhaps, but does the fact that her father died as a result of materials he was exposed to while working in a munitions plant during WW2 somehow make his death less real, or his efforts during the war less legitimate?

(A) There is no way in hell any sane person would take "Knowing that my father died fighting the **** regime in Germany" to mean "Eleven years later he died of cancer from causes probably related to manufacturing military materials during World War II". How much Kool-Ade does one have to drink before that even sounds plausible? She knew exactly what she was saying because there's also no way you accidentally say "He died fighting the *****" instead of "He died of cancer a decade after the fall of Berlin"

(B) Kirk lied. There is absolutely no question to this. He personally claimed to have won the Intelligence Officer of the Year award before a House committee in 2002. He has claimed it on numerous campaign materials, media questionnaires, given his approval to ads running with the claim, etc. This was no wacky intern mishap. He also claimed that a "staffer" had found the error when in fact he was contacted by the US Navy and told that the claim was wrong. Kirk personally claimed to have served in Operation Iraqi Freedom when he was stateside throughout it.

In both cases, there's really no other answer besides: They lied. The pathetic part is that both could have told the truth and still made their point but felt that they needed to punch it up and start claiming things that never happened.

Yeah, that's some pretty tremendous benefit for a claim that inspires a shitload of doubt.

She lied. It's cute and fun to pretend otherwise and it was a stone-stupid thing to lie about (hence her inclusion in this thread) but she pretty obviously gave an intentionally misleading statement. I don't live in AZ and don't even especially give a shit (it's not as though she's going to be impeached over this or something) but pretending that she innocently said this is pretty ridiculous.

You really think most people keep up with how some politician's parents died? "Hey! She said her father died fighting Germany! Why I know he died of cancer a decade later!"?

Fifty times? Really? You're not just making that number up?

We have two other people in this thread giving accounts that were pretty easily discredited but I'm supposed to take "Why would she do that when it's so easy to discredit?" as the reason why it can't be true? And think that she just sort of "accidentally" said that her father died fighting the **** regime in Germany and not "Died as a result of the war effort" or a thousand other way to say it that don't make it sound as though he was shot in a foxhole? Riiiiiiggghhtttt....

Edited, Jun 2nd 2010 7:00pm by Jophiel

Um. Of course. She was responding to people calling her "Hitler's daughter". So yeah, I think that's exactly why she said that. And the point is valid. Her dad dying as a result of working as a contractor making munitions used in the war against **** Germany is a pretty darn good argument against the "You're a ****" accusation. And I'd be pretty pissed off if my dad died when I was 11 for that reason and then someone called me that as well. Wouldn't you?

Whether the precise words she used could be interpreted in an incorrect manner is irrelevant, isn't it? The meaning of what she said is valid and legitimate either way. There's a far far cry from this statement and someone actually claiming to have personally fought in a war he never fought in, not because someone attacked him on his love of country, but simply to boost his own image. I still say she gets the benefit of the doubt here simply because her statement is only incorrect if you choose to interpret it a given way *and* she's been publicly open and honest about the facts of her fathers service and death in the past.


The other two cases include a pattern of misstatements about personal service. IMO, that's a whole different situation. And quite honestly, I'm still curious if Kirk ever actually said personally that he won that specific award, or if it's just stuff released by staff that he never noticed. Politicians sign stuff their staff write up all the time without more than a cursory look at it. Do you honestly think they pore over every word in a bio page, or press release? Or do you think they're handed a stack of release papers their staff has written up, and just sign them? I'm a bit leery to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one simply because he is responsible for that information and should have caught it, but that's still a lesser "lie" than someone verbally repeating an incorrect statement about his own service on many occasions.

And yes Joph. It's "dumb" either way. However, I do think it's valid to make a distinction between a dumb statement made by accident or in haste, and a dumb attempt to lie about your own past.

Jebiz, Eichmann, does doing that kind of mental gymnastics ever pull a muscle in your brain?


Let's try a thought experiment:

I lived for several years, during the Vietnam conflict (and, incidentaly, the height of the Cold War) at Ellsworth AFB. At the time is was a base for B-52 wings and ICBM wings. In fact, the largest bomber/missile base on the planet at the time (by warhead count). This fact made it a, if not the primary target for a Soviet first strike. Both B-52 wings were regularily rotated for action against North Vietnam. Alerts were very common. Even as children, we understood that each and every alert may have been the last day, what with the impending sudden radioative death.

If we apply gbajilogic (pat pend) that would make me a veteran of the Vietnam conflict and due to the stresses I should be getting VA care for PTSD.


Spinning is fun!!

I'm sure by "us," he was referring to the US Armed Forces as a whole, and not his plane in particular.

Jeez, Joph. Lern 2 reed.