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The gist of it. Arizona just passed the toughest Illegal Immigration law to date.
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Quote:
"Illegal immigration brings crime, kidnapping, drugs -- drains our government services," said Rep. John Kavanagh, a Republican.
Be honest ThiefX, thats the part you really believe isn't it?
"If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're gonna get selfish, ignorant leaders". Carlin.
Admit it, what you want to see happen is for Congress to decide to cede California over to Mexico.
Aren't you concerned that the government will abuse these new powers? I mean, let's face it, we both know that's all the government ever does with power.
Kavekk the Ludicrous wrote:
Aren't you concerned that the government will abuse these new powers? I mean, let's face it, we both know that's all the government ever does with power.
Less so than I am that the government will abuse its power to lay and collect taxes.
I don't actually have any problem with this legislation. Aside from the whole "state's rights" argument, I believe illegal immigration to be a legitimate and not at all trivial problem that needs to be dealt with. So long as we continue to increase the scope and size of our social services net, we should equally continue to reduce the number of people caught in that net that shouldn't be. I'm not advocating breaking down the door of every dark skinned person in the southwest, but I really don't see a problem with allowing (or even requiring) police in that particular region to question the immigration status of a group of suspicious individuals without having to single them out as a suspect in a crime.
I am in favor of any actions the GOP takes to further marginalize and alienate the growing minority population in this country. Be it by refusing to acknowledge slavery was "significant" or through draconian laws in which legal citizens can be hassled for immigration documents based on the color of their skin.
I grade this: A+++++ WOULD VOTE FOR AGAIN
I grade this: A+++++ WOULD VOTE FOR AGAIN
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
BrownDuck wrote:
I don't actually have any problem with this legislation. Aside from the whole "state's rights" argument, I believe illegal immigration to be a legitimate and not at all trivial problem that needs to be dealt with. So long as we continue to increase the scope and size of our social services net, we should equally continue to reduce the number of people caught in that net that shouldn't be. I'm not advocating breaking down the door of every dark skinned person in the southwest, but I really don't see a problem with allowing (or even requiring) police in that particular region to question the immigration status of a group of suspicious individuals without having to single them out as a suspect in a crime.
Donate. One day it could be your family.
An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come. Victor Hugo
An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come. Victor Hugo
His Excellency MoebiusLord wrote:
Kavekk the Ludicrous wrote:
Aren't you concerned that the government will abuse these new powers? I mean, let's face it, we both know that's all the government ever does with power.
Less so than I am that the government will abuse its power to lay and collect taxes.
you're not going to revoke that power, though. This abuse of power you can check before it gains momentum. Unless the service provided is of more value than potential/likely abuses, I suppose.
Kavekk the Ludicrous wrote:
His Excellency MoebiusLord wrote:
Kavekk the Ludicrous wrote:
Aren't you concerned that the government will abuse these new powers? I mean, let's face it, we both know that's all the government ever does with power.
Less so than I am that the government will abuse its power to lay and collect taxes.
you're not going to revoke that power, though. This abuse of power you can check before it gains momentum. Unless the service provided is of more value than potential/likely abuses, I suppose.
I'm a white honky cracker with the keys to the washroom the coloreds can't use so, yeah, I'm good with it.
BrownDuck wrote:
I don't actually have any problem with this legislation. Aside from the whole "state's rights" argument, I believe illegal immigration to be a legitimate and not at all trivial problem that needs to be dealt with. So long as we continue to increase the scope and size of our social services net, we should equally continue to reduce the number of people caught in that net that shouldn't be. I'm not advocating breaking down the door of every dark skinned person in the southwest, but I really don't see a problem with allowing (or even requiring) police in that particular region to question the immigration status of a group of suspicious individuals without having to single them out as a suspect in a crime.
Because I live in AZ I thought I'd weigh in. While I agree with BD here, especially the bolded part; part of me is very apprehensive of the picture that popped in my head of Police walking up to citizens and essentially asking to see their "papers."
In communist Russia, Papers ask to see you!
Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
The downside, and what will get this completely fucked up, is that it will lead to racial profiling.
You're right, it will. It will also be abused quite heavily by some people. However, when it comes to certain issues, you either just don't care, or you have to be willing to take some bad with the good and accept that fact that granting anyone more power allows for that power to be abused. If I were hispanic or dark skinned and living in the southwest, I might have a different view. As it stands, I think the legislation will have a net positive impact, so I have no personal issue with it.
#13ThiefX,
Posted: Apr 14 2010 at 8:01 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You mean libs would use something like the law being enforced to pander to minorities?
I can't help but think that this sounds like a terrible idea. I can't see the "good" outweighing the bad here.
I don't think you need to "pander" at that point. You just need to not be the guys who look like the Gestapo as they stop brown-skinned folk and demand to see their papers.
I'm not even saying that that'll be the reality of the situation but it'll sure play that way among the groups the GOP keeps making bungled efforts to attract.
I'm not even saying that that'll be the reality of the situation but it'll sure play that way among the groups the GOP keeps making bungled efforts to attract.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
I can't help but think that this sounds like a terrible idea. I can't see the "good" outweighing the bad here.
Everybody is entitled to their view, but let me present this excerpt from the quoted article:
Quote:
"Illegal immigration brings crime, kidnapping, drugs -- drains our government services," said Rep. John Kavanagh, a Republican. "Nobody can stand on the sidelines and not take part in this battle."
Democrats were just as passionate. "This bill, whether we intend it or not, terrorizes the people we profit from," said Rep. Tom Chabin.
Democrats were just as passionate. "This bill, whether we intend it or not, terrorizes the people we profit from," said Rep. Tom Chabin.
Call me crazy, but the latter seems far less a noble argument than the former.
Edited, Apr 14th 2010 10:04am by BrownDuck
BrownDuck wrote:
Quote:
Democrats were just as passionate. "This bill, whether we intend it or not, terrorizes the people we profit from," said Rep. Tom Chabin.
Call me crazy, but the latter seems far less a noble argument than the former.
It's true, though. This nation profits off immigrant labor, be it legal or illegal. This legislation means that any Hispanic (in AZ), be they born here, a naturalized citizen, have a legal green card, a visa, or here illegally can be legally shaken down by the cops based on nothing other than their skin color. We're more than happy to benefit from their labor but if it's politically expedient to treat every brown person as a potential criminal as well then -- yippee!
Edited, Apr 14th 2010 10:19am by Jophiel
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Jophiel wrote:
BrownDuck wrote:
Quote:
Democrats were just as passionate. "This bill, whether we intend it or not, terrorizes the people we profit from," said Rep. Tom Chabin.
Call me crazy, but the latter seems far less a noble argument than the former.
It's true, though. This nation profits off immigrant labor, be it legal or illegal. This legislation means that any Hispanic (in AZ), be they born here, a naturalized citizen, have a legal green card, a visa, or here illegally can be legally shaken down by the cops based on nothing other than their skin color. We're more than happy to benefit from their labor but if it's politically expedient to treat every brown person as a potential criminal as well then -- yippee!
Edited, Apr 14th 2010 10:19am by Jophiel
Admit it, you're just nervous that if it spreads north your family outings could be made uncomfortably long.
BrownDuck wrote:
Everybody is entitled to their view, but let me present this excerpt from the quoted article:
Call me crazy, but the latter seems far less a noble argument than the former.
Edited, Apr 14th 2010 10:04am by BrownDuck
Quote:
"Illegal immigration brings crime, kidnapping, drugs -- drains our government services," said Rep. John Kavanagh, a Republican. "Nobody can stand on the sidelines and not take part in this battle."
Democrats were just as passionate. "This bill, whether we intend it or not, terrorizes the people we profit from," said Rep. Tom Chabin.
Democrats were just as passionate. "This bill, whether we intend it or not, terrorizes the people we profit from," said Rep. Tom Chabin.
Call me crazy, but the latter seems far less a noble argument than the former.
Edited, Apr 14th 2010 10:04am by BrownDuck
Call me crazy, but I don't see illegal immigration really bringing crime, kidnapping, and drugs to the forefront. I have never heard of an illegal immigrant kidnapping someone. If anything, I would think that the illegal immigrants would be more careful about not breaking any other laws so they don't get deported.
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
If anything, I would think that the illegal immigrants would be more careful about not breaking any other laws so they don't get deported.
Donate. One day it could be your family.
An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come. Victor Hugo
An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come. Victor Hugo
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Call me crazy, but I don't see illegal immigration really bringing crime, kidnapping, and drugs to the forefront. I have never heard of an illegal immigrant kidnapping someone. If anything, I would think that the illegal immigrants would be more careful about not breaking any other laws so they don't get deported.
Then you should read more news. People in this country illegally from Mexico are turning border communities in to war zones between rival cartels. Phoenix is turning in to a downright unsafe place to play. Their murder rate is higher than New York City's, for Bob's sake. Illegal immigration should be more broadly stated as anyone in this country for any reason without a visa or other appropriate documentation is committing a crime and should be dealt with. If that means stop them on the street if you suspect something, so be it.
His Excellency MoebiusLord wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Call me crazy, but I don't see illegal immigration really bringing crime, kidnapping, and drugs to the forefront. I have never heard of an illegal immigrant kidnapping someone. If anything, I would think that the illegal immigrants would be more careful about not breaking any other laws so they don't get deported.
Then you should read more news. People in this country illegally from Mexico are turning border communities in to war zones between rival cartels. Phoenix is turning in to a downright unsafe place to play. Their murder rate is higher than New York City's, for Bob's sake. Illegal immigration should be more broadly stated as anyone in this country for any reason without a visa or other appropriate documentation is committing a crime and should be dealt with. If that means stop them on the street if you suspect something, so be it.
What Moe said.
His Excellency MoebiusLord wrote:
Then you should read more news.
I guess so. A quick Google search still didn't prove to me that illegal immigrants are the root cause of any of these crimes.
Jophiel wrote:
We're more than happy to benefit from their labor but if it's politically expedient to treat every brown person as a potential criminal as well then -- yippee!
Or from a different perspective, why should we allow them to continue to break the law simply because we profit from them?
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
His Excellency MoebiusLord wrote:
Then you should read more news.
I guess so. A quick Google search still didn't prove to me that illegal immigrants are the root cause of any of these crimes.
Well, since you've exhausted the be all, end all of research tools, by all means let's consider it settled.
His Excellency MoebiusLord wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
His Excellency MoebiusLord wrote:
Then you should read more news.
I guess so. A quick Google search still didn't prove to me that illegal immigrants are the root cause of any of these crimes.
Well, since you've exhausted the be all, end all of research tools, by all means let's consider it settled.
Heaven forbid that the people trying to prove a point provide with the necessary reading material, eh? Being at work, it doesn't exactly make sense to me that I spend time trying to prove your (or Brownduck's) point.
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