Follow-up: lesbian high schooler's promFollow

About Belkira? She says no. Past experience has taught me that she's far more honest about her views than you are. So I guess you're not right.

Thank you! An honest answer at last...



Of course. That's why the case was brought in the first place. But the point I'm trying to make right at this moment is that Belk's claim that she'd support a straight girls "right" to do the exact same thing just as much is false. Of course she wouldn't. No one would. The fact that she'd make that claim is outrageous, yet me pointing it out resulted in some nerve touching apparently.

I'm fine with people debating their position, but it doesn't help matters when someone inserts a falsehood into the issue. I was trying to get to the point that this is about her being a lesbian, and not some innate right of any student to wear whatever they please and take whomever they please to a prom. I thought that was pretty darn self-evident and was honestly floored when Belk insisted otherwise. I'm sorry if my response was a bit harsh, but I just didn't know how else to respond to what appeared to me to just be a refusal to agree with anything I say no matter how obviously true it may be.


Can we get back to actually discussing the issue now? ;)




Absolutely. It's also about tradition and pageantry though. And for some participants, that's very very important. There's a reason why prom tickets tend to be pricey and the rules are more strict than for other school dances. The question is: Does her right to make a statement about who she's dating outweigh other people's rights to enjoy the prom in a traditional manner?

People spend that much money on prom because of those things. Yes. I'm aware that at some schools, it's pretty much a joke event. But that's usually because of an "anyone can come dressed however they want" attitude, and not the other way around. Obviously, this school had very strict rules about their prom. That's a choice the school made. That choice represents the desires of the administration of that school, the parents of the students who attend, and in some way the students themselves. We can question that choice in specifics, but I think it's wrong to just chuck out the fact that this choice was made at some point. Every rule was decided on at some prior point in time using some process which was agreed upon by all involved.

I'm saying that she shouldn't just eliminate all those other people's right to have a prom that reflects their views of what a prom should be just because she doesn't share that view. There are usually 8-10 dances during a school year, most of which allow you to dress anyway you want, and to bring anyone you want. Why attack the one dance that has additional rules? Isn't it ok to have different dances with different rules? When did that become wrong? Lots of schools have the Sadie Hawkins dance, right? Should that be banned if a student refuses to play the role reversal typically involved? Isn't that silly?



Not on someone else's dime though. She is not the only person attending, or even paying to attend. By that argument, dress codes in high end restaurants and clubs are a violation of your constitutional rights. See how far that gets you...

Obviously, the issue becomes more complex if we're dealing with a public school. But there still isn't an absolute right there. Schools have dress codes. They have conduct codes. A student doesn't get to insist that he or she can do anything they want under the banner of free speech. Free speech ends when you're on someone else's lawn so to speak. That goes for public land as well.



I'm not sure what linking to the very court decision we're debating proves. Um... I know a judge made a poor decision on the issue of constitutionality. I was kinda hoping you'd like to some previous decisions regarding dress codes at school events to maybe add something to the discussion, or to maybe lend support to the judges decision in this case.


Cause that would be useful...

Gbaji, should a person be allowed to bring a black date to a prom?

Also lay aside the dress code issue, which is really beside the point. She was told she couldn't bring her girlfriend. That is an issue.

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 8:28pm by Xsarus

And she didn't. So we're in agreement.

Yeah, whatever. I know you like to pretend that everyone who disagrees with you is in some kind of lockstep, but I assure you that's not the case. I disagree with Belkira on this issue but it's really moot, in my opinion.

let go of the dress code Gbaji, that's really not the issue.

I have no problem with an enforced dress code. It seems silly to enforce it but whatever.

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 9:18pm by Xsarus

And all the other dances allow mixed race couples? All of them allow anyone to dance with anyone? It's just this one dance where the rules require the white kids to buy their tickets with a white date, and black kids to buy them with black dates? Perhaps because there's some kind of theme involving couples of the same skin color for some reason?

Your analogy is designed to try to create an unfair comparison between segregation laws and the dress and ticket rules for a single dance at a high school. Do you see how the two are not remotely similar?

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 7:22pm by gbaji

The judge ruled that the dress code requiring girls to wear dresses violated her rights and was unconstitutional. Seriously. I'd drop it except that it was part of the damn ruling.

I see that in both cases, in a situation that is about dates, someone is not allowed to bring the date they wanted. Forget about the dress code. A prom is not about having 1 guy for every 1 girl. There's no grand theme. It's a formal celebration of graduation, and they let you share it with someone special to you.

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 9:26pm by Atomicflea

That they'd let her go to the prom with her date, I imagine. The school's reaction, while not totally unforeseeable, is spiteful enough to break the casual chain.

Ok, wow.

First of all, I am not lying. It's true that if it weren't a lesbian couple the odds of there being a story about it are slim. It is not true that if a story came out that a straight girl wanted to wear a tux to her prom and go with a girl friend instead of a guy I wouldn't feel the same.

gbaji, I have no idea where you went to school, but at my school, they didn't deny people buying tickets that weren't strictly GUY/GIRL. There were plenty of guys and girls that went stag. And I'm even pretty sure that there were a few small groups of guys or girls who all gave the money to one person who had the time to run down and buy the tickets.

Also: Your analogies about her "violating the dress code" are ridiculous. It is nothing like not wearing "country themed attire to a country themed dance." She was still planning to dress in formal attire. Just not the gender specific formal attire that the school felt they had a right to force onto their students. Thankfully, the judges saw that this wasn't something they could force on someone.

I appreciate you trying to noodle out my thought process and thinking you know me better than I do, but we all know how very, very badly you suck at trying to figure out how a woman's mind works. It's better if you just don't try.

Having read the judges comments it's pretty clear that this is following quite a lot of legal precedent. The bring your girlfriend bit is pretty obvious.

For the cloths it seems to be saying that looking at different religions and ethnic groups that clothing is a way of expressing you and thus enters into freedom of expression. This would imply that a dress code couldn't discriminate between guys and girls, but that's not really a problem.