Personal finances and insuranceFollow

I wish they'd just do away with paper checks, personally. The things are fraught with fraud.

I'm beginning to wonder if Gbaji is like an American version of 'James May'

So you're wildly misinformed. Why didn't you just say so?

Checks aren't now, nor have they ever been, less of a fraud risk then debit cards. Also, there isn't anyone who examines checks to make sure they "look the way they should". I could write you a check on a pancake and as long I had the transit and account info correct and had signed it and identified you as the person to be paid, it would be cashed.

I love direct debit and chip and pin. All my bills are paid at the same time every month so I cannot forget.

In the UK, you gain discounts for paying by direct debit and are now charged for submitting cheques. I can think of no rational reason to use cheques.

Edit just to say, Sweetums should visit Derby. They call everyone M'duck around there

Edited, Feb 25th 2010 12:18am by GwynapNud

Now, unless I'm missing something and its different in the US from the UK, you are covered against fraud when using a debit card with chip and pin.
Also you have to be pretty stupid to put enough cash in your current account to have thousands drained. I know my bank monitors my spending habits habits. I have been called for payments made outside the norm, or in different locations to those expected. So in actual fact banking with a card is potentially more secure than a cheque.

Yes. But while you're sorting that out, you have no money. A debit card subtracts from your account first. If you challenge a charge, the money is gone until the challenge is settled. If the bank wants to be a pain, it'll ***** you on this (and yes, I know many people who have been so screwed).

A credit card is much safer to use than a debit card, for exactly the reason that the money is only paid by you after the fact. If you challenge the charge, you don't lose any money until the matter is resolved. My reasons for not using credit cards are not related at all to safety or security.

My reasons for preferring using plain old checks back when I originally made that statement on this forum were about the relative safety of checks versus debit cards. At the time, debit card security was pretty much non-existent.




How much is enough? If you have direct deposit into your bank account, and have automatic payments for things like a mortgage, car payment, gas and electricity bill, etc, then it really doesn't matter how much is in there, does it? If the account is drained, you can't pay for those things, can you? It could be a few thousand dollars. It could be a few hundred dollars. It doesn't matter. Zero money in the account means whatever money you normally use to pay your bills is not there.


I'll also point out that "thousands" is relative. I put a few thousand dollars into the separate checking account with the debit card attached exactly because for me that's a small amount which on the off chance I get ripped off, I can afford to lose and more importantly doesn't affect the primary account which is used to pay my major bills. As I pointed out before, if it was less than that, then what is the point? Small amounts I'll just pay cash. The only reason to use any method other than that is for larger purchases (typically in the thousand(s) range). I don't use my debit card to buy groceries.

Do you buy the extended warranties on your appliances?

You win a rare Jophiel rate-up.

My card number is less important than my bank account number, which is all over a check. Which one is easier to change?


Once they get your bank account number, do you think it's actually difficult to counterfeit a check? Get one, swipe your information (it's all on there), order new ones! You don't need to prove anything to order new, real checks. Hell, why bother! Use Demand Drafting! Paperless checks!

Plus, the people accepting the check are the same minimum-wage nimrods who accept your debit without IDing. For the most part, you can lie and get past the meager protections an ID would offer, unless the store has strict ID requirements (by the way, those stores often have strict ID requirements for cards, too). Never underestimate the power of social engineering.



Edited, Feb 24th 2010 6:50pm by Sweetums

No. They will not. Have you actually ever worked in any industry in which checks are handled?



No. They will not. They will only accept a personal check issued by a bank. Period. End of story. I have never heard of anyone or any business *ever* accepting a check written by hand. It's an urban myth that you can just write the information on a piece of paper and it'll be accepted. While it's technically legal to do so, every single business and individual is free to refuse to accept a check if they don't want to do so. And they don't take checks unless they are issued by a bank.



Sure. And just try walking up to one with a check you wrote on a piece of paper or in any other way not clearly one printed with a banks logo on it and looking and feeling like a check normally does and see how fast they look at you funny and then laugh when you insist they should cash it for you. It's a myth Smash. No one actually accepts anything that a bank did not print for you. Not except as a joke, or for someone they know personally.



Irrelevant. A "personal" check which is not written on a standard bank check issued by a bank to the person on their behalf will not be accepted by any of those businesses. Especially check cashing places. They'll only accept checks written by a business or bank to the individual cashing the check. Do you have a vague clue what you are talking about?

Personal checks are cashed by businesses (or individuals) at the bank itself. Yes, you can get them cashed at other businesses as well, and they usually charge a hefty fee specifically because third party checks are riskier. Also, those businesses are very very careful to check ID, since they are assuming the risk if the check is bad. You're not exactly helping your argument here...


Meanwhile, if I steal or copy your debit card, I can happily walk into any of a thousand different stores, and if they don't require ID or PIN, simply swipe the card for any purchase I want and walk out of the store with virtually zero chance of being refused or caught. It is easier to steal money with a debit card by an order of magnitude. Everyone who does business accepts them and 10 years ago, most of them did not require ID or PIN to use them. That is why they were extremely dangerous then. They're still more dangerous to your account today, just less so than they used to be.

In order to make a fraudulent purchase with a check, I have to walk into someplace that will accept the check, hand them a check that looks like a legitimate check written on bank or business script, and present ID. In order to make a fraudulent purchase with a debit card, I just have to swipe a card which the cashier might never see. Even the most strict businesses, I'll have to present an ID and type a PIN. Of course, if I duped the card by using a rigged box, I've got the PIN, so that's not a problem.


Find a place that will cash or even accept a check without checking ID. Most place will still accept a debit card without checking any form of ID. And that's the real difference right there. I can have all the information contained on a check, including the signature of the person and still will find it difficult to write a fraudulent check and get away with it. Once I have the equivalent information for a debit card (card data and PIN), there is no where I can't go to use it. And I can continue using it until I've drained the balance with essentially zero chance of getting caught.



Wrong. You are much much safer. If for no other reason than there aren't a whole lot of automated systems for duplicating your checks, fewer people who know how to commit fraud with them, and higher risks when performing said fraud. I can't see how you can possibly judge a card to be safer in this case. The whole point of electronic payments methods is that they are easier to perform. That also makes them easier to commit fraud with.

Edited, Feb 24th 2010 5:17pm by gbaji

For the record, I still use checks to pay bills, use my debit as credit for just about everything else.

And that's unusual for the Asylum, how?

More like these please. Short is good.