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Investing in solar power, would you do it?Follow

#52 Feb 09 2010 at 9:32 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I was very clearly making a point about the reduction of carbon emissions "per person". If you were running your own little generator and spewing fumes into the air, you'd see a significant relative improvement using a solar panel instead. The statement about power plants emissions being "exceptionally low" was very clearly in that context.

So what? The idea behind a program like that is to get as many people as possible on the trolly with the solar panels, thus reducing the need for power generation via fossil fuels across the population.


As long as we're clear that the objective for solar panel subsidies isn't really about reducing carbon emissions, but to promote solar panel use for its own sake. That's all I was going for.

You know I'm a stickler for correctly identifying *why* we're doing something. Mostly because it's amazing how often the first assumption people have isn't really correct...
So you would be against it if the goal was to reduce carbon emissions AND promote solar panel use?
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I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#53 Feb 09 2010 at 10:17 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
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Solar panels on your roof are really kind of a trade off right now. Absent government subsidies they would not be cost effective at all and given the above mentioned questionable trade-off in terms off pollution, we should be wondering about the legitimacy of the subsidies. The tech is getting better over time though. I just worry that if government subsidies push the issue too soon, folks will adopt before the tech improves to the point of being cost and environmentally sensible on its own. Given the length of investment (25 years in the article, right?), we could end out dramatically increasing the time it takes to get to a truly viable solar panel solution...


I could get behind this, assuming long term R&D projects still get some form of public investiture.


I'd honestly rather that a more normal tech development cycle occur. What we've seen in areas where the government does not get involved in direct subsidies is that the early tech is expensive, but those really interested drive it (by either buying the products or investing in the companies making them). As the tech advances an improves you eventually hit a magical break point where the costs come down sufficiently to increase demand enough to continue to pour money into more development, costs continue to go down, more people can afford it, and there's a veritable avalanche of public adoption. We've seen this process unfold with everything from vacuum cleaners, to washing machines, to televisions, to home computers, to cell phones and music players. There is no reason to assume otherwise with something like solar panels.


My concern is that if the government starts subsidizing the purchase of a given good too early, it ultimately retards technological development and true market success of the product. Imagine if the government had decided in 1990 to subsidize home computers. Would the continued development of faster and cheaper processors have continued? Or would the companies making home computers simply collect all the extra cash they were getting on the existing systems? The driver for improvement at that part of the development curve is to get a larger market share. To do that, they must bring costs down while improving performance. If you make todays thing profitable to a wide market, you affect the profit/development ratio in a bad way. Instead of a nice comfy curve, you end out with a flat return. Improvements wont bring much more market share for a lot longer down the line than otherwise. A lot of companies might simply stop where they are and invest their profits in something else.


Dunno. I just think that while it might take longer for initial large scale adoption, in the long run we're better off letting the normal process take it's course. If the government wants to put money into the R&D side, that's great, but I'm not a fan of subsidizing end purchases of new technology. I really do think it's counterproductive.


End user product subsidies in the tech field are a pretty bad sell to be sure, but research grant money for process R&D, not product R&D is vital for a greater level of net technological advancement. Once those technologies take off, however there is no reason to subsidize. I'm not altogether against a slow subsidy repayment plan as an additional cost to exclusionary patent rights either.

Secure phone systems for naval systems are a great example of this. $2000/phone is way overpriced, but we're stuck with it because of retarded long term subsidization/contract deals.
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#54 Feb 09 2010 at 10:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
As long as we're clear that the objective for solar panel subsidies isn't really about reducing carbon emissions, but to promote solar panel use for its own sake.

Not really, but whatever makes you feel good.
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#55 Feb 09 2010 at 11:14 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
As long as we're clear that the objective for solar panel subsidies isn't really about reducing carbon emissions, but to promote solar panel use for its own sake.

Not really, but whatever makes you feel good.


Depends on who's selling it.

- For the panel business it's about promotion for promotion's sake
- For green energy supporters, the goal is carbon reduction
- For the Politicians, it's campaign contributions and votes from supported businesses and green energy supporters. Whoever is differentially paying the most for their specific stake will be heard best.
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#56 Feb 10 2010 at 6:43 AM Rating: Good
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paulsol wrote:
santapanta wrote:

better still: lunar power!


Ummm. That would be known as wave/tidal power generation smartypants. Research into that is currently going quite well.
We have a project being funded in the Bay of Fundy, which has self proclaimed, the highest tieds in the world, giving them tons of flow to generate power. Seems to be working out great. The biggest issue is not disturbing the immediate ecosystem.
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#57 Feb 10 2010 at 7:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
paulsol wrote:
santapanta wrote:

better still: lunar power!


Ummm. That would be known as wave/tidal power generation smartypants. Research into that is currently going quite well.
We have a project being funded in the Bay of Fundy, which has self proclaimed, the highest tieds in the world, giving them tons of flow to generate power. Seems to be working out great. The biggest issue is not disturbing the immediate ecosystem.

tidal generators are being installed in the East River, each one used to power a small business/store in NYC. I saw a program stating that the target goal is 300 installed.

Edited, Feb 10th 2010 8:20am by Debalic
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#58 Feb 10 2010 at 7:29 AM Rating: Good
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I don't even remember why I uploaded this image from a year or so ago, but here's what I was talking about.

Screenshot
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#59 Feb 10 2010 at 7:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
I don't even remember why I uploaded this image from a year or so ago, but here's what I was talking about.

Screenshot


I'm not seeing anything.
#60 Feb 10 2010 at 7:36 AM Rating: Good
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Fix your adblock or open your eyes.
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#61 Feb 10 2010 at 7:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Hmm, there it is. Why the hell would I have that Adblocked? The only thing I ever add to the list are annoying avatars.
#62REDACTED, Posted: Feb 10 2010 at 9:29 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) bsphil,
#63 Feb 10 2010 at 9:31 AM Rating: Good
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Present a better argument. Oh and most people sell the house withing 5yrs. Chew on that before you start singing the praises of how cost effective it will be to spent 10k on solar panels.


Much like a security systems, it increases the value of the home property sufficiently to justify expenditures, in most cases.
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#64 Feb 10 2010 at 9:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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publiusvarus wrote:
Oh and most people sell the house within 5yrs.

That's why no one ever installs a swimming pool or a new addition or remodels the basement or...

Oh, wait. People make decisions based on their own personal estimates of how long they'll be in the house, return on investment, etc.
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#65REDACTED, Posted: Feb 10 2010 at 9:42 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Timey,
#66 Feb 10 2010 at 9:46 AM Rating: Good
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publiusvarus wrote:
Timey,

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Much like a security systems, it increases the value of the home property sufficiently to justify expenditures, in most cases.


It doesn't justify the expenditure. That's why people don't do it. They will spend that 10-15k on remodeling the kitchen or put an inground pool in the backyard but most people are not running out to purchase solar panels. We both know why.


If you live in a non-sunny region they may not be at break even yet, but mine are projected to turn a profit later this year. To be fair though, I did get them under full price though.
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#67REDACTED, Posted: Feb 10 2010 at 9:49 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Timey,
#68 Feb 10 2010 at 9:53 AM Rating: Good
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publiusvarus wrote:
Timey,

Quote:
If you live in a non-sunny region they may not be at break even yet, but mine are projected to turn a profit later this year. To be fair though, I did get them under full price though.


How long have you had them, how much did they cost, and how much power do they provide?




Dear Varus,

I'm thinking of switching over to solar panels, because I spend $2400 a year on oil to heat my house using hot water heat. So, at 15k, that's only 6 years to break even. My plans are to be in this house a minimum of 10 years, but more likley 15-20.

Do you think I should go for thye solar pannels to heat my hot water?

Sincerely,
Cranky in Canuckia
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