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Hi, my name is Redphoenixxx and I'll be your waiter. . Follow

#27 Feb 06 2010 at 7:42 PM Rating: Good
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NixNot wrote:
But, I guess this point is kind of moot, seeing as France is really close to the bottom of the list of foreign countries I'm likely to visit.


You just want to still feel like a unique butterfly with the whole not showering thing, and France will straight wreck that.


Anna wrote:
Also, the whole "same courtesies"--that's a really shaky argument that falls apart pretty easily.

Allegory wrote:
There is just no pleasing you is there?


Odd, I thought Anna had a thing for robots.

Edited, Feb 6th 2010 7:06pm by Tarub
#28 Feb 06 2010 at 8:05 PM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
Annabella of Future Fabulous! wrote:
Having real actual power that is not manifested and discussed is much more harmful than someone having less power who is more honest about it. It's insincere.

Well sure, but that isn't the topic of this discussion. Th article asserted that people are treating each other fairly equally in France, when research, bad it may be but better than some guy writing an article, points out that that even countries with more basis for discrimination tend to treat each other more equivalently than in France. I think this is more likely a story to simply grab eyes than to enlighten us about french culture.


No, you are making an assumption of what it means to be equivalent.

Quote:
ou don't like it when I take the time to speak technically and fully accurate, but you don't like it when I do exactly as you ask of me and use colloquiums that transfer meaning largely through connotation. Not the "same," but "more similarly than in comparison to how people treat each other in France as supported by the research of Hofstede."


He's making a shaky argument at best. I don't know why I'm supposed to accept Hofstede's conclusions.

Edited, Feb 6th 2010 9:06pm by Annabella
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Turin wrote:
Seriously, what the f*ck nature?
#29 Feb 07 2010 at 3:00 AM Rating: Good
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If you had the opportunity to listen to the original article (spoken as opposed to the written word) you'd notice the 'tongue in cheek' tone that some of you have missed. (Audio here - may be UK only)

I enjoyed the distincgtion made between what I've experienced as 'aloof but highly professional' waiters in Paris and the 'jovial but slap-dash' attitude of servers in some US places.

As for the whole "Egalite" issue, I've experienced more active snobbery (patronising or downright harassing) of waiters in US than in Europe.

Another factor not made explicit in the article is the difference in social status of professions. In USA (and to an extent in UK), waiter<teacher<banker<lawyer<surgeon. In France, Spain and Portugal, the hierarchy is less pronounced, and a waiter is much further up the pecking order.



Edited, Feb 7th 2010 5:53am by Nobby
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#30 Feb 07 2010 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
The problem is that we're talking about quite a few different things. Here's a list of them:

- the politeness of Parisian waiters.
- the perceived equality between individuals of different social classes, by nationality.
- the accuracy of a particular sociologist explaining the aforementioned perception.
- the real equality between different social classes, by nationality.
- the role and and status of waiters.
- the percentage of allegory which is silicone.
- the frequency of generalisations per post when discussing the personality traits of large groups of relatively disparate individuals.

I think Parisians are quite rude in general. More so than Londoners. But not more so that New-Yorkers or Bostonians. I think Parisian waiters are pretty cool nowadays. I think France is a more equalitarian society than both the UK and the US. But I do think class plays a much bigger role in the UK and France than it does in the US.

Allegory wrote:
In France people may be overall closer in income, but they act like bigger douches about what little they have over their fellows than people in the U.S.


That's not accurate. French snobbism is not about material possessions or wealth. In fact, the biggest self-righteous French douches often feel snobbish about people who think material wealth is meaningful. The rasons for French douchiness/snobbishness are mostly to do with education, culture, social life, last name, language, etc...

Not that you would understand any of these insights, bien sur.
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#31 Feb 07 2010 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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RedPhoenixxx wrote:
French snobbism is not about material possessions or wealth. In fact, the biggest self-righteous French douches often feel snobbish about people who think material wealth is meaningful. The rasons for French douchiness/snobbishness are mostly to do with education, culture, social life, last name, language, etc...


Well, that's so much better. Smiley: nod
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#32 Feb 07 2010 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
TirithRR the Eccentric wrote:
RedPhoenixxx wrote:
French snobbism is not about material possessions or wealth. In fact, the biggest self-righteous French douches often feel snobbish about people who think material wealth is meaningful. The rasons for French douchiness/snobbishness are mostly to do with education, culture, social life, last name, language, etc...


Well, that's so much better. Smiley: nod


I think the amount of douchism is roughly similar in all countries, the main differences are the forms that the native douchiness takes.
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#33 Feb 07 2010 at 1:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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My last name is "Graves" and the only time people comment on it is when they look a startled and say, "Well isn't that a bit morbid."

But anyways, I've heard that French people outside of Paris tend to kind of hate Parisians like how we in the the urban northeast hate New Yorkers. It's that combination of resentment and envy and hatred of the yankees.



Edited, Feb 7th 2010 2:56pm by Annabella
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Turin wrote:
Seriously, what the f*ck nature?
#34 Feb 07 2010 at 1:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Annabella of Future Fabulous! wrote:
My last name is "Graves" and the only time people comment on it is when they give me they look a bit startled and say, "Well isn't that a bit morbid."
Try visiting France when the name everyone knows me by is "Mort" Smiley: frown
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#35 Feb 07 2010 at 1:57 PM Rating: Good
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what a wonderful phrase
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Nobby wrote:
Annabella of Future Fabulous! wrote:
My last name is "Graves" and the only time people comment on it is when they give me they look a bit startled and say, "Well isn't that a bit morbid."
Try visiting France when the name everyone knows me by is "Mort" Smiley: frown


Seems appropriate.
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Turin wrote:
Seriously, what the f*ck nature?
#36 Feb 07 2010 at 5:10 PM Rating: Good
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To add to my response to Anna - yes, Parisians are held in contempt by many provincial frenchies - In Rouen, the term "Parisienne" is used as a derogatory term for a woman whose self-esteem outweighs her looks and/or personality.
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#37 Feb 08 2010 at 4:04 AM Rating: Good
Nobby wrote:
To add to my response to Anna - yes, Parisians are held in contempt by many provincial frenchies - In Rouen, the term "Parisienne" is used as a derogatory term for a woman whose self-esteem outweighs her looks and/or personality.


You know, the only reason we got this reputation is because we're so inherently superior to provincial frenchies. Seriously, and very much objectively, the non-parisian part of France is mostly made-up of stupid inbred illiterate alcoholic peasants. Of course they're going to be jealous. Well, when they're sober enough to having feelings, that is.
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#38 Feb 08 2010 at 5:25 AM Rating: Good
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RedPhoenixxx wrote:
You know, the only reason we got this reputation is because we're so inherently superior to provincial frenchies. Seriously, and very much objectively, the non-parisian part of France is mostly made-up of stupid inbred illiterate alcoholic peasants. Of course they're going to be jealous. Well, when they're sober enough to having feelings, that is.
This is pretty much the reigning sentiment in most of the Latino countries, as well. Do you have a derogatory term for provincials? Mexicans call provincials that move to the capital chilangos.

Edited, Feb 8th 2010 6:42am by Atomicflea
#39 Feb 08 2010 at 6:18 AM Rating: Good
The Glorious Atomicflea wrote:
RedPhoenixxx wrote:
You know, the only reason we got this reputation is because we're so inherently superior to provincial frenchies. Seriously, and very much objectively, the non-parisian part of France is mostly made-up of stupid inbred illiterate alcoholic peasants. Of course they're going to be jealous. Well, when they're sober enough to having feelings, that is.
This is pretty much the reigning sentiment in most of the Latino countries, as well. Do you have a derogatory term for provincials? Mexicans call provincials that move to the capital chirilangos.


We certainly do! Quite a few, in fact: pèquenot, ploucs, pezdouille, cul-terreux...

I remember the kids in Guadalajara reffering to the inhabitants of DF as "Chilangos"...
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#40 Feb 08 2010 at 6:43 AM Rating: Good
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RedPhoenixxx wrote:
I remember the kids in Guadalajara reffering to the inhabitants of DF as "Chilangos"...
Yup, you're right. 'Swhat I get for not being Mexican. Peruvians just call them cholos.
#41 Feb 08 2010 at 6:59 AM Rating: Good
The Glorious Atomicflea wrote:
RedPhoenixxx wrote:
I remember the kids in Guadalajara reffering to the inhabitants of DF as "Chilangos"...
Yup, you're right. 'Swhat I get for not being Mexican. Peruvians just call them cholos.


I only remember because after 3 months in Guadalajara we went to DF, and one of the first thing we did was to ask someone if he was a Chilango". We wanted to get soem directions, but, yeah, we quickly realised that it wasn't the preferred nomenclature.
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#42 Feb 08 2010 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
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Nobby wrote:
Don't count on it

Nice BBC article on Parisian attitudes towards customers.

Some highlights:
Quote:
The revolution of 1789 has burned the notion of equality deep into the French psyche and a proud Parisian finds it abhorrently degrading to act subserviently.

Quote:
In America, your waiter comes to your restaurant table to tell you his name is Joe. Here, your waiter expects to be addressed formally as Monsieur, in exactly the same way he will address you.

It is made clear from the start that no-one has the upper hand. The strict code of manners in Paris is a deliberate class-leveller.


Wait-people stopped being peasants a long time ago, and cabbies have alway been notoriously surly the world over. I'd not call this a Parisian trait.

Never in my many years of waitressing did I offer up my name to the customer.

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